Justice system needs that second part which is missing.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

The originally two part update what was justice system back at the day, needs that second part as well.

We need a way to call a guard, to attack a murderer, defend citizens and animals, catch thieves and so forth.

Especially those murderers need some killing imlemented on them.

EDIT: I would like to point out, that i as well commit crimes on certain characters, i do have brotherhood character and a thief character. Its just somewhat boring to be a murderer who seems to be impurvious to non existant justice in Tamriel, hear NPC's call out for guards that never show up. I like the criminal play as well as being goodie two shoes but the criminal world in ESO is basically without consequences even when you get caught or get big bounties. This needs to change so that the system feels like something realistic, not something thats just a grinding tool.

No, the game doesn't need this at all.

In any way.

This is just a method for Players to grief other Players for playing the game. It affects you none to have someone in stealth looting a place of everything that can be stolen. If Players go on a killing spree in a town/area, it affects you none since no Quest-givers or Merchants can be killed/assassinated. Just let those people playing criminals, be criminals. It affects you in no way whatsoever, and adding in a "feature" like you're suggesting would only be rampantly abused, and used to prevent people from playing how they want.

Your suggestion needs to stay as far away from ESO as is possible.

No. Thank. You.

Tapio75 · March 2017

@srfrogg23

I do not do PVP.

@Tandor

One of the core values of the game should be having meaningful consequences in participating in criminal activity.

People assume this is for getting PVP to the ope world, this is true and false at the same time.

Clearly for the system to make any sense, the bigger consequences need to be attached to big crimes and big bounties. If there be a system where players could work as guards, it naturally would be hard to be gank friendly at all. As a smart criminal, one would not do crimes in places where people can witheness the crime.

The system would also require you to sign up for the task so that you could work as a temporary guard or such.

System can easily be made, so that players can do crimes like they do now, the added risk being a criminal would be to be hunted down if one gets too big bounty or commits too many crimes/gets too big bounty.

Crime is a PVE action, true, but that does not mean other players cant intervene with your ciminal activities.

The system would not actually even need to have any kind of PVP involved, the system can be as simple, that player who witnesses a crime, can then call a guard (Not if not witness of a crime) and the guard will do the rest, either chasing the criminal off the scene or by killing him/her.

At least the guard system needs to be more robust and responsive. As i do crimes, those guards really pose no threat to me at all, they can be easily escaped and this needs to be harder.

Crime is not there for you to farm stuff, as people have said, it is part of PVE and needs to be immersive. Immersive crime in TES means that criminals are punished and hunted if bounty is high enough.

Kodrac · March 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

Risk vs reward. There's no risk but plenty of reward. Sounds imbalanced to me.

If you consider the PvE risk to be unbalanced with the reward, then there's nothing to prevent you from proposing ways of strengthening the PvE risk.

Over to you. Let's see some proposals.

I gave one in my earlier post. It doesn't have to be a PvP solution just something to add risk and awareness instead of mindless pilfering and ignoring the entire system. If people can ignore then the system as if it isn't even there then the system doesn't work. They may as well not even have instituted it in its current form because people are still acting the way they did before it was in place. The way it is now is just a minor annoyance to get a bounty or an annoyance to have to crouch before opening chests.

Tandor · March 2017

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with profit! It's to do with maintaining the core values of a game that is structured like most MMORPGs for open world PvE and consensual PvP. There are other, more open world, PvP titles including some structured like ESO but with separate FFA PvP servers. They are available to play, but this is not one of them.

Nobody has suggested that open-world PvP is the way all games should be. A well-designed game should feature PvP and PvE with dedicated areas for both, and the middle ground should feature a mixture of the two. A poorly-designed game would allow either side to "opt out" irrevocably and permanently, as would a game seeking to appeal to the broadest possible of categories.

This game has dedicated PvP and PvE areas which also cater for the middle ground, in that both Cyrodiil and Imperial City offer dedicated PvP content but with some PvE content locked behind it. While a mainstream game should seek to appeal to the broadest possible of categories, that does not mean that every mainstream game should appeal to a particular niche playstyle (e.g. FFA PvP) at the expense of its broad mainstream appeal (e.g. PvE and consensual PvP). There are separate niche titles for that.

Kodrac · March 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

Risk vs reward. There's no risk but plenty of reward. Sounds imbalanced to me.

really?

have you looked at any of the casual repeatable content in this game that are the competitors for game play time with causal injustice?

You can gain a lot more rewards running a good stretch or beach for mudcrabs - whens the last time that was any risk.
You can gain better by good daily delving. (esp with current motif demands) last time you died in a delve or came close to seeing risk?

You're reaching. Grinding mobs is apples, the justice system is oranges. Before they put in the justice system you could loot any chest anywhere. After they put in the justice system you can still loot any chest anywhere. Only now you get a bounty. Whoopity doo! All they did was add an inconvenience to wait, log out for a while or talk to an npc to have it removed. You can loot and murder with minimal consequences. The system may as well not even exist. I understand they needed something artificial in place before adding Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, but that's all it is is artificial.

Nestor · March 2017

If ZOS wants to increase risk, then all they have to do is decrease detection radius, increase bounties, reduce the bounty reduction timer, eliminate the ability to flee from the guards and wham bam, all the PvE Risk you need. No need to upend the game, just turn some dials.

And, guess what, people will howl if they try to implement that. People play this game to have fun. Not play a Cops and Robbers Simulator. That is what Grand Theft Auto is, or Thief or Assassins Creed.

Besides, so what if someone else steals something? It has 0 effect on you as everything is instanced. So what if someone kills another NPC, it will respawn. Nothing anyone else does in PvE has any effect on you but what you want it to. It's only your concern because you want it to be, or your just trying to come up with an argument to justify forcing PvP on everyone.

People have been stealing stuff in TES games since inception. The consequences have always been light and easy to ignore or deal with. This game does not need to be any different in that regard.

Tapio75 · March 2017

Its really sad how people see crime in TES world as an activity that neefds to be fun in all arts.

It is not a crime if its fun all the time.

Its also sad that people stick to the word PVP and forget everything else. Even while PVP is not part of justice system, the system can be improved in totally PVP free manner by improving the guard system, it is also not PVP if a player can call a guard to get a criminal. It is immersivew and realistic.

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Or "Hey look at me guard, ive got tens of thousands worth of bounty on me but you will just pursue me alone, just is non consequence that i just murdered hundred of your citizens, small deal.. I just run away now :P"

Crime needs to feel like crime.

Tandor · March 2017

@Tapio75 @Kodrac

The problem with players informing guards of PvE crimes committed is that it (a)automatically involves Player versus Player even if not in terms of combat, and frankly how one player participates in the PvE content is not the concern of any other player so long as it is within the rules, and (b) is massively open to exploitation in the form of harassment.

I'm perfectly open to PvE suggestions for improving the PvE content of the Justice System, but leave other players out of it as that is not PvE. That's a form of PvP under any name and is open to exploitation.

Kodrac · March 2017

Nestor wrote: »

Besides, so what if someone else steals something? It has 0 effect on you as everything is instanced.

The entire system has zero effect. They should just remove it. It's one of those "good in theory, poor in practice' deals.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

As long as guards and players playing guards are killable and loot able I don't mind .

Kodrac · March 2017

Tandor wrote: »

@Tapio75 @Kodrac

The problem with players informing guards of PvE crimes committed is that it (a)automatically involves Player versus Player even if not in terms of combat, and frankly how one player participates in the PvE content is not the concern of any other player so long as it is within the rules, and (b) is massively open to exploitation in the form of harassment.

I'm perfectly open to PvE suggestions for improving the PvE content of the Justice System, but leave other players out of it as that is not PvE. That's a form of PvP under any name and is open to exploitation.

It doesn't need PvP at all. It wouldn't even need any interactions/interruptions/griefing if you have zero bounty. Anyway, that was just an idea that could be improved upon. i personally see no need for the system whatsoever since it's still like it was before they implemented it.

Nestor · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Crime needs to feel like crime.

Embrace the Role part of Role Playing Game and you can have all the consequences that you want. Throw out your Pardons, don't sneak when you steal stuff, don't allow your character to use the Refuges if you have a Bounty, don't take any Legerdemain, Thieves or DB Passives that make this easier to do. It's easy to amp up the consequences within the given game systems. The game does not need to be overhauled for that.

If your going to take advantage of all the systems in the game that make theft easier then complain about how easy theft is, you only have yourself to blame. You can make theft pretty hard to do in this game if you really wanted to and no one has to redesign anything.

And, yes, stealing in a video game should be fun, if its a chore, why do it?

I_killed_Vivec · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

Its really sad how people see crime in TES world as an activity that neefds to be fun in all arts.

It is not a crime if its fun all the time.

Its also sad that people stick to the word PVP and forget everything else. Even while PVP is not part of justice system, the system can be improved in totally PVP free manner by improving the guard system, it is also not PVP if a player can call a guard to get a criminal. It is immersivew and realistic.

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Or "Hey look at me guard, ive got tens of thousands worth of bounty on me but you will just pursue me alone, just is non consequence that i just murdered hundred of your citizens, small deal.. I just run away now :P"

Crime needs to feel like crime.

"Just murdered hundreds of your citizens"?

I've destroyed armies! I've killed gods! I haven't just murdered hundreds, I've slaughtered thousands!

Don't bring any thought of morality into the game, even if you play as a "hero" with two shoes as goody as they get, you will still have murdered hundreds.

And if you are a member of the Dark Brotherhood you murdered an innocent for fun, and murder commoners for money. It is the way of that world...

As @STEVIL said, for some communities in Tamriel picking flowers is a worse crime. And I can tell you I've picked a few!

Tapio75 · March 2017

@Tandor

Yeah, seems like any kind of player nvolvement is a bad idea for some. The guard system in itself should be improved though, the first things i would do, is to actually get a guard to spawn/come when NPC witnesses a crime and call for a guard.

An occasional bounty hunter would also be good, perphaps with bigger bounties, a partyof bounty hunters

srfrogg23 · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

Its really sad how people see crime in TES world as an activity that neefds to be fun in all arts.

It is not a crime if its fun all the time.

Its also sad that people stick to the word PVP and forget everything else. Even while PVP is not part of justice system, the system can be improved in totally PVP free manner by improving the guard system, it is also not PVP if a player can call a guard to get a criminal. It is immersivew and realistic.

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Or "Hey look at me guard, ive got tens of thousands worth of bounty on me but you will just pursue me alone, just is non consequence that i just murdered hundred of your citizens, small deal.. I just run away now :P"

Crime needs to feel like crime.

Dude... you really need to unplug for a while. Take some time to cement your understanding of reality versus fantasy.

Video games are just really intricate toys, and they're supposed to be played for fun, for entertainment, not moralistic self-flagellation (unless you enjoy self-flagellation - just don't do it in public).

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

Its really sad how people see crime in TES world as an activity that neefds to be fun in all arts.

It is not a crime if its fun all the time.

Its also sad that people stick to the word PVP and forget everything else. Even while PVP is not part of justice system, the system can be improved in totally PVP free manner by improving the guard system, it is also not PVP if a player can call a guard to get a criminal. It is immersivew and realistic.

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Or "Hey look at me guard, ive got tens of thousands worth of bounty on me but you will just pursue me alone, just is non consequence that i just murdered hundred of your citizens, small deal.. I just run away now :P"

Crime needs to feel like crime.

[snip]

Sure, you've said plenty of times that you play criminal characters. But that becomes a moot point when you start trying to force your version of "fun" onto other Players.

There are plenty of small, niche MMORPG's that will (and are already) cater to the level of difficulty and open-world PvP that you seem to desire. But do you know why those MMO's are small, niche MMO's? Because the number of player that want that type of game play is minuscule.

ZOS has already said that they're never going to implement the type of open PvP player-run justice system in ESO, and the primary reason is that there's no way whatsoever to protect other Players who don't want to take part in that, and that it would cause a flood of Players griefing other Players.

[snip]

[Edit for baiting]

STEVIL · March 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

Risk vs reward. There's no risk but plenty of reward. Sounds imbalanced to me.

really?

have you looked at any of the casual repeatable content in this game that are the competitors for game play time with causal injustice?

You can gain a lot more rewards running a good stretch or beach for mudcrabs - whens the last time that was any risk.
You can gain better by good daily delving. (esp with current motif demands) last time you died in a delve or came close to seeing risk?

You're reaching. Grinding mobs is apples, the justice system is oranges. Before they put in the justice system you could loot any chest anywhere. After they put in the justice system you can still loot any chest anywhere. Only now you get a bounty. Whoopity doo! All they did was add an inconvenience to wait, log out for a while or talk to an npc to have it removed. You can loot and murder with minimal consequences. The system may as well not even exist. I understand they needed something artificial in place before adding Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, but that's all it is is artificial.

yes they are both different types of casual repeatable content - just like apples and oranges are just different types of fruit.

dead spot on.

which is why i dont get arguments that hinge o some axiomatic belief that one piece of |"fruit" content (casual repeatable PVE content) should not have similar low-risk, similar rewards over time and so on as the other types of "fruit" content (casual repeatable PVE content) in the game or that it is imbalanced somehow if they both have similar levels of risk/reward.

As for The system may as well not even exist. that is just baffling.

well right now it is the ONLY "can;t just slaughter thru it" kind of content in the game. unkillable guard and bounty that persists on slow countdown are unique features that the current injustice brings to the game. i for one would not like it to be gone and with it most of the impetus for sneaking. Its mostly the only source for chase scenes in PVE.

But on a fundamental level, for The system may as well not even exist. part of your argument - obviously the system is getting plenty of playtime. Just look at the almost weekly threads asking for getting it opened up for gankers. According to many of those threads, lotsa folks are playing this content, so many its ruining immersions all over the place.

So, i know you might not like it and it may not be your favorite cup of fish fingers/lemon curd and all that, but really, something that gets lots of play shouldn't even exist in a game where the purpose is to provide content folks want to play?

i mean, i dont like PVP as implemented in this game. But since i know quite a few folks enjoy playing it - i would never say The system may as well not even exist about PVP.

Tandor · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

@Tandor

Yeah, seems like any kind of player nvolvement is a bad idea for some. The guard system in itself should be improved though, the first things i would do, is to actually get a guard to spawn/come when NPC witnesses a crime and call for a guard.

An occasional bounty hunter would also be good, perphaps with bigger bounties, a partyof bounty hunters

I have no problem with the former, or with the latter if the bounty hunters are NPCs.

I'd also make it so that you don't reduce your bounty when logged out. It's too easy to go off and do something else or play a different character.

Tryxus · March 2017

The First Time Tryxus ever took the Path of the Thief
I stole a diamond from a merchant once... just your every day Thieves Guild job

Then I found a diamond somewhere in a dungeon

I tried to sell the honestly found diamond to the merchant I robbed earlier

I was arrested...

The End

PS: Plz tell me I wasn't the only one who did that in Morrowind?

Tapio75 · March 2017

@Uriel_Nocturne

There is a difference in looting an NPC or a container and calling it a crime and actually picking a pocket and having a meaningful consequence of being caught.

As we clearly see and hear in many places around Tamriel, there is a moral code that exists in the life of citizens of Tamriel. Doing crime without punishment is not one of them.

Playing criminal and it being immersive and fun usually needs to also include the downsides of crime. Otherwise it is just a glorified looting system.

For crime to feel like crime, does not mean it has to have a PVP side, just better and more meaningful consequences.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne

There is a difference in looting an NPC or a container and calling it a crime and actually picking a pocket and having a meaningful consequence of being caught.

As we clearly see and hear in many places around Tamriel, there is a moral code that exists in the life of citizens of Tamriel. Doing crime without punishment is not one of them.

Playing criminal and it being immersive and fun usually needs to also include the downsides of crime. Otherwise it is just a glorified looting system.

For crime to feel like crime, does not mean it has to have a PVP side, just better and more meaningful consequences.

As @Nestor said above:

Nestor wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Crime needs to feel like crime.

Embrace the Role part of Role Playing Game and you can have all the consequences that you want. Throw out your Pardons, don't sneak when you steal stuff, don't allow your character to use the Refuges if you have a Bounty, don't take any Legerdemain, Thieves or DB Passives that make this easier to do. It's easy to amp up the consequences within the given game systems. The game does not need to be overhauled for that.

If your going to take advantage of all the systems in the game that make theft easier then complain about how easy theft is, you only have yourself to blame. You can make theft pretty hard to do in this game if you really wanted to and no one has to redesign anything.

And, yes, stealing in a video game should be fun, if its a chore, why do it?

You have only yourself to blame.

There's plenty that you can do to make criminal activity more difficult for yourself, and do it without ruining the game for the VAST majority of players.

Why propose (what would be) sweeping changes to the game that would more likely drive players away in droves than attract them?

[snip]

[Edit for baiting]

STEVIL · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

Its really sad how people see crime in TES world as an activity that neefds to be fun in all arts.

It is not a crime if its fun all the time.

Its also sad that people stick to the word PVP and forget everything else. Even while PVP is not part of justice system, the system can be improved in totally PVP free manner by improving the guard system, it is also not PVP if a player can call a guard to get a criminal. It is immersivew and realistic.

My point is, that while i do crimes in Tamriel, i want it to feel like doing crimes, there has to be some exitement, not just "Yawn" a container, i loot it or "Oops" i got caught picking a pocket of a guard, i just runaway .

Or "Hey look at me guard, ive got tens of thousands worth of bounty on me but you will just pursue me alone, just is non consequence that i just murdered hundred of your citizens, small deal.. I just run away now :P"

Crime needs to feel like crime.

So let me get this straight - you say crime in the game shouldn't be fun all the time, end with it should feel like crime and then in the middle describe just how unfun crime is in the game?

You don't want "yawn" but want more "excitement" and this is your answer to not wanting it to be fun all the time?

Sounds to me like you want criminal activity to be more fun, not less fun?

And sorry but - PVP is not just bashing. griefing is not just doing health damage. Addimg more ways players can screw with and interfere with PVE activities of other players and especially quests accomplishments for DLCs is not the direction to go and is very much adding PVP.

Bored griefers following around quest targets to screw up quest objectives - not fun for anybody but the griefer and we dont need to add more of that.

Even now they can do it, but we dont need to make it a legit part of the ESO experience.

"Come and play the new, fascinating Morrowind questlines - when other PC jerks choose to allow you to do so." is not the PR blurb they want to use, right?

Tannus15 · March 2017

The justice system has room for improvement, but involving other players isn't the answer.

In my opinion all that is required is ZoS looking into improving the guard patrol routes in cities and possibly giving guards the ability to summon more guards.

The last thing we need are players involved. One thing I know from experience is that if you give people to opportunity to negatively impact on someone else's game play, a certain subset of people will take great delight in doing just that.

Tapio75 · March 2017

It would be really great to actually discuss about how to improve the justice system to have more than what it is now. To improve criminal life so that it actually feels like a criminal life.

As i do pickpocketing for example, the one part of thrill should be to be careful to plan the pick so that guards do not notice or so that other citizen of Tamriel wont notice me. This is happening to some degree though cguards should have a better detection radius so that if guard in other side of street is staring at me, i could not steal something without being noticed.

If i get caught, the exitement should be in getting away. This does not happen. Citizens call guards, guards will not appear, ever if they are not on a set route and just happen to be there though they still wont react to NPC shouting, they need to see me before reacting. This needs much improvement

Banks and such places needs to have a guard, always. Bank in Devons watch seems to be without a guard as is the bank in Mistral, i assume many other similar banks exist.

One part of being infamous criminal is, that some people will not like you and some people will hire bounty hunters to pursue your head, this kind of thing is fitting in TES world. Say, if you have a bounty over 1000, an occasional bounty hunter will hunt you, these bounty hunters should be meaningful enemies, not normal trash mob. You should have option to either try to bribe the bounty hunter to go away or kill him/her or the BH will kill you. If you get killed, the bounty is removed if you have enough money. If not, then the bounty remains. This should somewhat work like guards killing you works now.

If you have more than 10k bounty, a party of strong bounty hunters shall pursue you for your bounty, rest works in similar way.

Murder and theft should be having different consequences.

One of the most important, and also first improvments that should be done, is that when an NPC calls out for a guard, a guard spawns and attempts to pursue the criminal. Perphaps the amount of guards that appear should be linked to amount of bpounty you have.

These are simple examples that how the system could be improved.

hmsdragonfly · March 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

ZOS has said that PVP should be contained in certain areas, that does not make it the right decision.

As said earlier, SWG had a good system as does EVE, players can play just about like theres no VP at all even in EVE where everyone is attackable everywhere, but in EVE the olice system works wwell unlike in ESO. Warcraft also has a good system, PVP everywhere and you can opt in or out anywhere and anytime you want, even in PVE server you can turn PVP on if you wish. I remember Tarren mill vs Southshore battles, great fun though the killing of quest givers was a bit annoying.

You know for a fact that you stand no chance against PvPers, right?

srfrogg23 · March 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

ZOS has said that PVP should be contained in certain areas, that does not make it the right decision.

As said earlier, SWG had a good system as does EVE, players can play just about like theres no VP at all even in EVE where everyone is attackable everywhere, but in EVE the olice system works wwell unlike in ESO. Warcraft also has a good system, PVP everywhere and you can opt in or out anywhere and anytime you want, even in PVE server you can turn PVP on if you wish. I remember Tarren mill vs Southshore battles, great fun though the killing of quest givers was a bit annoying.

You know for a fact that you stand no chance against PvPers, right?

Oh, the OP says he doesn't PvP. He's just never played on a PvP server apparently and he's not familiar with griefing. So, when he asked to make it so he can be killed by other players in the PvE content, he's apparently just talking out of his ass.

Either that, or he knows that what you said is 100% true and he just wants to be able to kill players that aren't prepared in any way for PvP because actual PvPers are too much of a challenge for him.

Lylith · March 2017

if what you're suggesting was fully implemented, thieves and murderers could conceivably kill other players from stealth with the blade of woe and loot them.

they might even form zergs in formerly pve areas.

why is it assumed to be all one sided?

careful what you wish for.

Betheny · March 2017

Not this again. Hurrrrr

Necrelios · March 2017

All we need is a way to kill guards that are malfunctioning.

Duiwel · March 2017

@Dread_Knight_N7 Hail Sithis

Too bad OP you can't call the guard because I will just deny it? What? Oh... this blood? It's wolf's blood my dear town watchman. The beast came at me, I had no choice! I didn't even want to stab it.

In the end it would be your word against mine, but keep in mind. I am the one who just killed a woman/man in cold blood. Imagine what I could do to you for trying to get me arrested

Hail Sithis!