It would be cool but it could get too messy too fast combining PvE and PvP.

Too many ways to exploit it, too.

ZOS have made it clear that it isn't going to happen, not least because of the scope for exploitation.

"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System. We caveated this many times - as I said at the ESO QuakeCon presentation in 2014, it was always going to be very difficult making it fun, but not exploitable. When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems. Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2016/01/12/eso--the-year-ahead

Turning ESO into an open world PvP game in any form would lose many more players than it would gain. I'm personally delighted that they dropped the idea, discussion of which has been done to death in countless fruitless threads already. The problem is that the only people really keen on the idea are more interested in having experienced and suitably equipped PvPers going after inexperienced, poorly equipped and unwilling PvEers with only a tiny minority of the PvPers willing to consider an absolute and unconditional opt-out for PvP as currently enjoyed with dueling via the game settings. Most tell PvEers not to participate fully in the PvE content if they don't want to be forced into PvP and that is simply unacceptable.

Imperial City taught us (and more importantly ZOS) that PvE and PvP do not mix well together. Fortunately ZOS have recognised that, even if all players haven't yet done so.

That is not to say that there aren't ways of strengthening the Justice System (and benefits in doing so) but those ways need to involve PvE only, and nobody has yet felt inclined to put any constructive proposals forward that relate solely to PvE.

Oh goodie, we have another week with another thread about something that few players want, no one will opt in to if it was offered and ZOS has already said won't be put in the game.

You want to Role Play Cops and Robbers, use the Dueling System.

No, many reasons, no.

Immersion BS
just because you dont like how other player's choose to PVE does not mean you get to jump them with PVP.

immersion doesn't let my vampire PC PVP folks killing bloodfiends in pursuit of their quest objectives, does it?

immersion doesn't let my follower of the green PVP folks harvesting living flowers for sale for gold, does it?

Likely as not a few seconds before that character did whatever it was you don't like, you could walk-thru them as if they were a ghost - but them grabbing safeboxes spoils your immersion?

Exploit BS
The going rate of gain for time from casual injustice play is at best middle of the pack and often lower than the other casual repetitive content like delving, grinding, questing and dungeoning. its just as safe if you are prepared and know what you are doing as any of the others. Its not an exploit to know how to run casual content without any significant risk. When's the last time you died running daily delve quests? if you run in a way so that you acquire bounty that is a "factor" none of that other content has to deal with. its an annoyance, sure. Really you can make more gains per hour from running mudcrabs up and down a good stretch of beach.

Two pay-for DLCs and their main questlines require these sorts of activities. Throwing them now into PVP is not a good idea.

by the time you get enough opt-out safeties in place, seems like a fairly noticeable percentage of the ones wanting PVP vs PVE find the opt-outs to be a poison pill since the folks they want to jump can just opt-out.

But mainly, For lotsa players, adding in PVP does not make PVE better no matter how many times PVP players want others to believe it does.

Many threads... much discussion, not changing so...

STEVIL wrote: »

just because you dont like how other player's choose to PVE does not mean you get to jump them with PVP.

Actually, in a game setting with warring factions, it does. Players engaging in hostile actions against your faction SHOULD be subject to retribution by members of your faction.

Star Wars Galaxies (pre-NGE) had this right. If you committed a hostile act against the other faction, even a PVE act, then you were temporarily attackable (by all overt members of the victims faction) for about 5 minutes.

It would be great if ESO worked this way. When PVE-ing in the opposing factions zones, if you attack that factions NPCs, you should temporarily be able to be attacked by friendly players.

Unfortunately, some people don't like being attacked by other players under any circumstances ever (including ESO where death is essentially meaningless), and businesses like Zenimax are interested in catering to everyone (even the pathetic) in the interests of profit.

This conversation always goes well.

Tapio75 wrote: »

I remember ZOS stating that making the second part would be "No fun" to everyone but theres the problem with the whole thinking process. Crime is something that must have consequences and the guards are not working out that well.

If we cant punish a guilty, those guards need to work much like CONCORD in EVE.

Guards need to spawn to hunt criminals who are seen and there has to be different "security zones" like in cities and towns where the guards are the most vigilant, In safe areas, players need to be hunteddown if they commit crimes, in more distant areas, the crime should be easier but there should also be real consequence.

I think for thieves, the system with guards works pretty well, but as murder is more serious crime, the guards also need to be more vigilant regarding murderers, currently they have basically free reign over any NC.

No, lol, just no. Such a bad idea.

You want an entire style of gameplay to become virtually impossible based on some ill-conceived "moral" argument so this game will turn into another crap game that barely anyone plays.

And Eve is, in its entirety, an open world PvP game.

If you really want the guards to work in ESO the same way they do in Eve, then those guards need to rain on everyone's parade in Cyrodiil.

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

just because you dont like how other player's choose to PVE does not mean you get to jump them with PVP.

Actually, in a game setting with warring factions, it does. Players engaging in hostile actions against your faction SHOULD be subject to retribution by members of your faction.

Star Wars Galaxies (pre-NGE) had this right. If you committed a hostile act against the other faction, even a PVE act, then you were temporarily attackable (by all overt members of the victims faction) for about 5 minutes.

It would be great if ESO worked this way. When PVE-ing in the opposing factions zones, if you attack that factions NPCs, you should temporarily be able to be attacked by friendly players.

Unfortunately, some people don't like being attacked by other players under any circumstances ever (including ESO where death is essentially meaningless), and businesses like Zenimax are interested in catering to everyone (even the pathetic) in the interests of profit.

In case the examples that followed the quote you edited out did not clue you in, i was referring to "in ESO.."

My examples included vampires and blood fiends, green packers and harvesters, and did not include one single light saber example...

So yes obviously in some other games, where there is not as severe a distinction between PVE/PVP opt-in as exist in ESO things would be different.

But, in ESO, not liking other folks PVE is not justification for inflicting PVP on them against their will.

Tapio75 wrote: »

Thieving and murdering is a crime in Tamriel as well, people can opt out from PVP by not doing crimes. I dont think that thieves need a bounty hunting system, but murderers should have more consequences, guards are simply not enough.

Here we go. As per my previous post, I didn't think it would be long before the PvPers told us that the way that inexperienced, ill-equipped and PvP-unwilling PvErs could avoid PvP would be by not participating fully in the PvE content.

Every thread on this subject ends the same way, but I'm grateful for them nonetheless because they keep at the forefront of the developers' minds the sound reasoning that caused them to make the decision to drop the PvP element of the Justice System in the first place.

Tapio75 wrote: »

ZOS has said that PVP should be contained in certain areas, that does not make it the right decision.

Exactly. It's a business decision designed to maximize appeal to the broadest group of players. It's not purely a game-design decision.

I'm not complaining about that decision, it's already been made, but you have to challenge the people that think that makes the game better.

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

just because you dont like how other player's choose to PVE does not mean you get to jump them with PVP.

Actually, in a game setting with warring factions, it does. Players engaging in hostile actions against your faction SHOULD be subject to retribution by members of your faction.

Star Wars Galaxies (pre-NGE) had this right. If you committed a hostile act against the other faction, even a PVE act, then you were temporarily attackable (by all overt members of the victims faction) for about 5 minutes.

It would be great if ESO worked this way. When PVE-ing in the opposing factions zones, if you attack that factions NPCs, you should temporarily be able to be attacked by friendly players.

Unfortunately, some people don't like being attacked by other players under any circumstances ever (including ESO where death is essentially meaningless), and businesses like Zenimax are interested in catering to everyone (even the pathetic) in the interests of profit.

Oh boy, not only one inevitable topic development by way of experienced PvPers telling unwilling PvPers that the way to avoid PvP in PvE areas is by not participating fully in the PvE content, but now we get the second inevitable topic development with PvPers throwing out personal insults by calling PvEers "pathetic". Way to win your argument and the support of the PvErs!

It's got nothing to do with profit! It's to do with maintaining the core values of a game that is structured like most MMORPGs for open world PvE and consensual PvP. There are other, more open world, PvP titles including some structured like ESO but with separate FFA PvP servers. They are available to play, but this is not one of them.

Tapio75 wrote: »

I remember ZOS stating that making the second part would be "No fun" to everyone but theres the problem with the whole thinking process. Crime is something that must have consequences and the guards are not working out that well.

If we cant punish a guilty, those guards need to work much like CONCORD in EVE.

Guards need to spawn to hunt criminals who are seen and there has to be different "security zones" like in cities and towns where the guards are the most vigilant, In safe areas, players need to be hunteddown if they commit crimes, in more distant areas, the crime should be easier but there should also be real consequence.

I think for thieves, the system with guards works pretty well, but as murder is more serious crime, the guards also need to be more vigilant regarding murderers, currently they have basically free reign over any NC.

@STEVIL

Thieving and murdering is a crime in Tamriel as well, people can opt out from PVP by not doing crimes. I dont think that thieves need a bounty hunting system, but murderers should have more consequences, guards are simply not enough.

I wonder have people considered, that witnessing a player slaughtering animals and NPC may not be much fun at all. I believe some people do this just to make some people angry because they know nobody can do anything about it.

Either players need to be able to handle serious criminals or guard system needs to be more robust and responsive.

At least there should be a system to call a guard or guard need to actually react to NPC who calls out for a guard.

To the first portion: the difficulty level as it stands now along with the payout for time played for injustice activities are on par with other casual repeatable content including delving, grinding, dungeoning and some questing (normal modes assumed.) in each case, someone experienced, properly equipped and with planning can complete the content with little to no risk, and gain commensurate rewards. Injustice is not even at the top of the gains list.

So all the "it needs to be..." which add-in lotsa increased difficulty and make the chance of success significantly off-kilter when compared to the other similar content would seem to be suggestions that would result in reducing the folks playing the contet. Why would any company spend money and dev time to drive folks away from content they developed a mostly world-wide system for and two DLCs?

As to the second part - targetted specifically at me:

Opt-out by not playing PVE content i paid for?
You gonna refund my $$$ personally?

i have considered that folks seeing ABCDEF PVE behavior may indeed not be fun for everyone, but i also realized after about 12 hours of MMO playtime that in MOO in PVE you can't control what other players choose to do and so if you can't handle the fact that folks might do things you don't enjoy, MMO with PVE may not be your thing.

Really, almost all of the PVE content someone can find something to object to.

Why does my Dominion player have to sit by and watch renegade PCs defying local authorities (who have been working with us to deal with the problem) and slaughtering my fellow soldiers while those renegades are in direct collaboration and cooperation with a monstrous hagraven?

one trunk at a vendor i can open and take what i want but the sack beside it is a red marked theft?

the guard system is part of the overall game and questing, it needs to be as hard as it is now to keep that content and play in sync with the other PVE casual repeatable content competing for that casual play time.

That said, i have no problem with more difficult injustice content added - but not slammed in on top of the casual - or with a strong "justice" DLC style set of content added where PCs take on the role of enforcers or guardians and hunt down criminal (NPCs) as part of recognized guilds. Daily quests (casual ones and tougher ones) , world bosses, dungeons, passive skill lines etc and obviously some good law and order vie going on.

Finally as for this part of a premise:
"Thieving and murdering is a crime in Tamriel as well..."

yes and if you really look at it maybe half the normal questline content is equally "criminal" in nature but its not treated as such. how many times do we get to murder some NPC in a quest instead of turning them over to authorities? hardly "legal".

So from an "inside the game's world" think, there is no link between "in the game's world would be legal" and any of these consequences.

And from an "outside the game looking in" its obvious that the game is intended to encourage "injustice play" or play of the criminal content. They built two DLC and an entire mostly world-wide system. they would not do those if the goal was to discourage the play. So its not "wrong" from an outside looking in and so no need to throw tons of additional crap in to make it worse.

Kodrac wrote: »

Risk vs reward. There's no risk but plenty of reward. Sounds imbalanced to me.

If you consider the PvE risk to be unbalanced with the reward, then there's nothing to prevent you from proposing ways of strengthening the PvE risk.

Over to you. Let's see some proposals.

Kodrac wrote: »

Risk vs reward. There's no risk but plenty of reward. Sounds imbalanced to me.

really?

have you looked at any of the casual repeatable content in this game that are the competitors for game play time with causal injustice?

You can gain a lot more rewards running a good stretch or beach for mudcrabs - whens the last time that was any risk.
You can gain better by good daily delving. (esp with current motif demands) last time you died in a delve or came close to seeing risk?