Animation canceling and those that think its cheating

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2017

zaria · February 2017

Tandor wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Why is this still a thing? Was there really a need for yet another thread about this topic?

Yes, its turn has come round again. We've had auction houses, and we've had RNG, so it's the turn of animation canceling and then we'll be back round to PvP in the Justice System followed by server transfers.

The old saying "what goes round, comes round" has never been truer than on a game forum !

Grinding just make you go in circles.

QahnaarinDynar · February 2017

Too many people complaining about this and that ZoS needs to remove it. NO THANK YOU. Threads like this should become stickies.

Thank you OP.

zaria · February 2017

cjthibs wrote: »

I think most people, that have a problem, have a problem with being able to cancel animation yet still doing damage or applying whatever effect.

If you cancel a skill's animation it should allow you to block or transition to another skill, but it should cancel that ability's damage. You're effectively making a choice as to which action is more important then, and not getting both.

Yes, for heavy attacks this is true, you can cut the tail but it has an minor effect, the Templar spear stabbing can be canceled but with reduced damage.

summoning an clanfear but canceling halfway don't give you an smaller version, this is an good thing or all sorcerers would run around with tiny clanfear pets

Main benefit is weaving in light atacks for ultimate and for proc like BSW.

Cryptical · February 2017

exeeter702 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

The comments in that image are lies.

The change was made because people were able to completely cancel the animation of attacks like wrecking blow, and land 2 attacks at the same time. Such as old wrecking blow and brawler, and land another wrecking blow before the body had landed. I know it could be done, because in testing I was able to do it.

You arent wrong in that the previous system was changed for those concerns, but would you care explaining why the quotations are lies? aside from not agreeing that combat would feel bad, the other points are reasonably sound. Abilities are resolved where its shown, and animation canceling gives back player control within the red area of the graph, otherwise you would not be able to block or roll dodge after landing a skill. Or is that an inaccurate observation?

Interesting wording "you aren't wrong"... You couldn't just say I am right?

Your added caption to that image "opponents of animation canceling" is you deciding what we want rather than hearing our actual desires. In case you missed it, I included what I want right after the bit you quoted, but it seems you couldn't be bothered with addressing that. This is called a Straw Man argument, where you don't engage with anyone, you create a fake position and then knock it down.

Also, in that bit of caption is a gross misrepresentation of the effects of your straw man's position. 2 seconds? What? What heavy attack has a 2 second follow through? If that caption was the truth, you wouldn't have said anything near a 2 second follow through, but from the beginning you didn't actually begin the conversation by treating the opponents of animation canceling honestly, so we really shouldn't be surprised you inflated the timespan of follow-through so extremely.

Again... I would be just fine with shortening the animations so that they complete at the same microsecond that the damage is applied. The physically measurable amount of time elapsed would remain exactly the same, so any whines about flow would be irrelevant. Animation canceling naturally discriminates against players with higher pings, affecting the fairness of pvp.

In real-life terms, perhaps you enjoy the idea of some people competing while extra weight is strapped to them, but the result could not be called a fair sport.

Edit: Or... Expand on what zos has already done. Have you noticed that when mounted, hitting block in order to dismount put up the block animation for a second - what appears to be a full second - even though all you did was tap the block? If zos applies that animation length to normal combat, then the ability of people to abort their action in order to block a sudden attack (keeping reaction capability) is preserved but abuse of the block button is discouraged.

SirAndy · February 2017

exeeter702 wrote: »

Abilities do not have their own internal cooldowns, there is a universal GCD that governs all ability use. The only way to sync the animations while still giving player agency is if you chose not to animate any type of recovery visuals to abilities and place the resolving point of an ability at the very end of its cast time / animation time. The nature of this games combat system on a fundamental level would make that very strange looking and awkward.

A cooldown is a cooldown, it matters not whether it is global or individual. You said there is no cooldown and you are wrong.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to put anything at the end of an animation.
One does not have to change the underlying functionality to adjust the visual animation to match the execution time (or vice versa). Done it many times, it's simple and does not result in an awkward animation or awkward effect.

The real problem is that when ZOS was made aware of the discrepancy, they quickly realized that it would take them some serious effort to do this right.
That is the only reason why this is still in the game and hasn't been fixed.

flguy147ub17_ESO · February 2017

Its not cheating and personally dont like it. But i use it to be more competitve but i personally dont like it eventhough it takes more skill and practice. I feel forced to use it but think its a horrible combat design. Besides that one element i absolutely love ESO's combat, not the proc sets though lol.

exeeter702 · February 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Abilities do not have their own internal cooldowns, there is a universal GCD that governs all ability use. The only way to sync the animations while still giving player agency is if you chose not to animate any type of recovery visuals to abilities and place the resolving point of an ability at the very end of its cast time / animation time. The nature of this games combat system on a fundamental level would make that very strange looking and awkward.

A cooldown is a cooldown, it matters not whether it is global or individual. You said there is no cooldown and you are wrong.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to put anything at the end of an animation.
One does not have to change the underlying functionality to adjust the visual animation to match the execution time (or vice versa). Done it many times, it's simple and does not result in an awkward animation or awkward effect.

The real problem is that when ZOS was made aware of the discrepancy, they quickly realized that it would take them some serious effort to do this right.
That is the only reason why this is still in the game and hasn't been fixed.

I stated there was a gcd in my op. Your wording just confused me.

And you havent really explained how it would work outside of removing a recovery animation so that the moment players gain access to movement after an ability is precisely the point of which the ability resolved. All you have done is made passive nods at your experience doing it yourself (programing) which doesnt really carry any weight if im being honest.

I possesd the capacity to see reason, i have given it a great amount of thought and do not see an easy solution nor do i believe it is shear laziness on ZOS's behalf.

I have tried to be as concise as possible in explaining why such a system exists here and how it is a natural effect of the design at its core. You are saying that core design is flawed, and that they have essentially dug thenselves into a hole in which they cannot get out of. Again i ask, how could such a system be implemented that allows player freedom while keeping true to fully animated skills, follow through animation and all.

In the case of uppercut for example, a skill with a cast time.. What would you change to make animation canceling not possible? Shorten the entire animation and fit it into the skills cast time? Greatly reduce the follow through animation to being near non existent?

Iluvrien · February 2017

Suggestion: Retain the ability to cancel after the hit but during the follow-up (no massive revise by ZOS) but apply a penalty for doing so such as being off-balance or a longer cast time for the next ability.

It would allow people to block an incoming ability, but require them to choose between taking the hit (and hitting right back) or going on the defensive for a moment.

Stormshaper · February 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GfC-yRs6Uc

Derra · February 2017

Ackwalan wrote: »

Thought this was settled long ago. If you feel it still needs defending, you have to ask yourself. Why?

I´m not even defending it.
I´m asking what about it can be labeled unfair? Why do you feel it´s broken?

Derra · February 2017

SirAndy wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Abilities do not have their own internal cooldowns, there is a universal GCD that governs all ability use. The only way to sync the animations while still giving player agency is if you chose not to animate any type of recovery visuals to abilities and place the resolving point of an ability at the very end of its cast time / animation time. The nature of this games combat system on a fundamental level would make that very strange looking and awkward.

A cooldown is a cooldown, it matters not whether it is global or individual. You said there is no cooldown and you are wrong.

Also, there is absolutely no reason to put anything at the end of an animation.
One does not have to change the underlying functionality to adjust the visual animation to match the execution time (or vice versa). Done it many times, it's simple and does not result in an awkward animation or awkward effect.

The real problem is that when ZOS was made aware of the discrepancy, they quickly realized that it would take them some serious effort to do this right.
That is the only reason why this is still in the game and hasn't been fixed.

So you don´t have a problem with animation "cancelling" in itself.

If all animation were sped up to allow for execution within the games gcd (ie: full lightattack+ full skill animation within 1s) that would be fine?

stevepdodson_ESO888 · February 2017

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

Fodore · February 2017

"It's cheating" is just an l2p issue

Derra · February 2017

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

Its cheating because years after the game release people still can't do it or can't be bothered too.

It's down to a l2p issue or just overall lazyiness.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

i didn't say it was cheating...i said ZOS has to say it is not cheating

Derra · February 2017

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

i didn't say it was cheating...i said ZOS has to say it is not cheating

Which they did?

Eirella · February 2017

People are still complaining about animation canceling? Seriously?
What zenimax needs to do is get rid of those animation changes they did a few patches ago, completely ruined the fluidity of combat.

KanedaSyndrome · February 2017

Swing a big twohanded sword in real life. How will you avoid following through after you've made the swing? You can´'t just instantly pull the sword back after you commit to the swing. This is the reason that animation cancelling shouldn't exist.

The real history here is that once upon a time ZoS admitted that it was a bug, but they gave up trying to fix it and instead renamed it to a "feature".

I am personally against animation cancelling, but I use it since it's in the game. But it is a silly "feature".

[Deleted User] · February 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

QahnaarinDynar wrote: »

Too many people complaining about this and that ZoS needs to remove it. NO THANK YOU. Threads like this should become stickies.

Thank you OP.

I need my LOL button back.

If the OP's post is accurate, then I'm the Pope.

How is life being the pope?

Aquanova · February 2017

If lag didn't exist then i wouldn't have a problem with AC, but some of us have worse lag than other's so it becomes a problem.

The best fix until we eliminate lag is to eliminate AC period!

dday3six · February 2017

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

QahnaarinDynar wrote: »

Too many people complaining about this and that ZoS needs to remove it. NO THANK YOU. Threads like this should become stickies.

Thank you OP.

I need my LOL button back.

If the OP's post is accurate, then I'm the Pope.

Perhaps a better approach would be to detail alleged inaccuracies.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Aquanova wrote: »

If lag didn't exist then i wouldn't have a problem with AC, but some of us have worse lag than other's so it becomes a problem.

The best fix until we eliminate lag is to eliminate AC period!

Why would some people have worse lag than others?

If your going to say peoples different internet speed thats on your end.

Majic · February 2017

Apparently, not enough people were complaining about animation canceling, so we needed a new thread about animation canceling that tells people not to complain about animation canceling, thus ensuring that more people would complain about animation canceling.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2017

I don't really like animation canceling, but I'm forced to do so to compete in both pve and pvp. So until if or when they decide to change it we're stuck with how it is.

It really just promotes button mashing, but what combat games nowadays don't?

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

Its cheating because years after the game release people still can't do it or can't be bothered too.

It's down to a l2p issue or just overall lazyiness.

Or macros to bypass being lazy

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

and the over-riding reason why ZOS has to say it's NOT cheating, is because the fanboys (Deltia, Fengrush, Sypher, Alcast, etc...blah, blah, blah) all post videos on exactly how to animation cancel

they couldn't perma-ban their secret love children

How can it be labeled cheating though?

What makes you think it´s cheating?

Its cheating because years after the game release people still can't do it or can't be bothered too.

It's down to a l2p issue or just overall lazyiness.

Or macros to bypass being lazy

Not on consoles.

Not sure why people would allow programs to take control of their characters anyway, not matter how little of a time. That takes away the ability to react.