I was kind of confident when switching to Trueflame yesterday because I never had problems with PvP on Azura before and "performance problems " didn't sound thaaat problematic.... it was not problematic, it was horrible!
I really doubt that CPs are the problem. Until they don't have a very large opening in the code that contains CP-calculation, I cannot think about CPs as a reason for infinite loading screens and certainly not for rollbacks. Rollbacks. Couldn't believe I experienced these twice yesterday. The issue here is probably bigger than we can imagine.

Runs wrote: »

Went into Azura's last night... No CP kicked my ass. Just like last time I played there, it will take a getting used to. I have a feeling the change will hit players who have never tried the no CP campaign really hard.

I ended up having a dream about it, which looked something like this.



Except in my dream it wasn't venison/game hooked up to the IV it was gigantic balls. Yeah, I probably should be seeking therapy.

Durham wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

This is just going to lead to no cp in all pvp campaigns.

Lag existed before CP... actually started with the lighting patch right after release

Yes, but lag is no longer experienced in the other campaigns so that issue appears fixed.

Lag can be caused by multiple issues and it can take multiple fixes to resolve. This is a test to try and isolate some of the performance issues or eliminate this as a potential cause in the campaigns still experiencing lag/poor performance. The main distinction between campaigns experiencing performance issues and the ones performing well is the CP system.

Isolation and process of elimination are key elements of troubleshooting any complicated technical problem.

Bottom Line:
If you care about performance issues in this game then you should help test the theory.

Edit: Even it turns out the CP system is the culprit it doesn't mean they will do away with CPs it just means they will try to tweak/alter the the system so it performs better.

pieratsos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For you, the answer is I am guessing "nothing." But that's you.

CP does offer build variety. How many heavy armor seducer armor sets you think have just been crafted since the announcement has been made? Yes, sustain is easier on CP campaigns, but when people say everyone has infinite resources is just parroting incorrect and misleading information too simply promote their preferred playstyle. When I use my templar, she wears Lich and there are times I run out of magicka. When I play my light armor sorcerer, I run out of resources *a lot* because I put absolutely zero effort into sustain. The very fact it is possible to use heavy armor in something else besides a "tank" build contradicts the very assertion that CP does not offer greater build diversity. It is possible that the game is not enhanced when too much emphasis is placed on resource management; just making it harder to do that does not automatically make the game better, offer more vareity, or make it more skillful.

No, CP does not offer build variety. Its doing the exact opposite. Build variety isnt defined by what sets people use. It doesnt matter if every single person uses different sets when the result is the same. And this is what happens in CP campaigns. Every single build has ridiculous sustain, dmg and survivability with prety much no weaknesses. And the fact that u can use heavy armor in more than just tanking doesnt mean that CP offer build diversity. Heavy armor can be used in more than tanking because of the passives and the different set combinations u can make. You can also do more than just tanking with heavy in no CP as well. With CP tho, u can do so much more than just tanking to the point that u have no build diversity because in the end u can do everything. And while this is not only an issue caused by CP but also because of the OP sets, its still a huge problem and azuras is a proof. It doesnt matter if every single person uses seducer in azuras. Its still more build diversity cause builds are different, have advantages and weaknesses. They cant do everything. The only issue with azura is that the game is designed around CP which makes different mechanics and abilities a huge problem in azuras. But even then the fights are still more skillful.

My TF sorcerer: no regen, glass canon, no sustain, highly dependent on other people for survival, overly specialized for damage: many weaknesses, can't do everything, in fact can't do anything except AoE damage and short burst single target.

My TF templar pre-homestead: no regen, ridiculous high health, no damage, no sustain, many weakneses, only could do blazing shield and get in the way of other players.

Hmm, different builds with actual weaknesses on Trueflame. Keep saying everyone is the same all you want, you've convinced yourself of its veracity. Go ahead and keep saying that that if "every single person uses seducers," that somehow makes diversity because builds are different. You've clearly taken the time to find the distinguishing features on CP campaigns so I surely should just take your word for it on Azura's because you're aren't totally biased or anything...because the gameplay style you prefer takes "more skill," because your opinion of what constitutes skill is someone more valid than mine.

What they are not saying is that the reaction of the players to no cp will probably be the main determining factor in whether cp remains in pvp.

If the code is not even abstracted in a way where they can easily measure the performance impact of cp, I'm guessing actually fixing it is something they don't even want to touch if they can help it.

To fix this they most likely have to apply completely different,and much more complicated algorithms to how to update player attributes and calculate them on neighboring players. Having worked on similar systems in the financial industry, it's not easy. It's far simpler when you are designing something from scratch, if you had to do a major refactor in a core area like this on an existing game, I'd be advocating for every other option but that. Because for some of the same reasons they need to measure this on live servers, also applies to all of the bugs resulting from the refactor that would only show up on live servers. Which means weeks of bug fixing and possibly game breaking bugs that would make people not want to play.

Now that said, I think they have some options. For example if they can come up with a design that basically limits the number of cp setups that can exist. Simple example would be cp templates. Then they wouldn't have to query every cp value on every player, it would be reduced to lookup the player and get the cp values from the template, which could reduce the number of queries by a huge factor. That's a simple/brain dead approach but just an example of what they could do short of refactoring the entire system.

This is BS stripping CP is not the way to go..

oibam wrote: »

Remove CP. Remove poisons. Remove proc sets. You will thank me later.

Nope ... while we are at it let's just remove everything and play paper rock scissors...

After two nights of playing on Azura, i can't see myself going back to TF ever, not unless CP is gone.

I have had so much fun on Azura...the fights feel very much like 1.5 to me. when your fighting someone, if they make mistakes(re-casting shields too soon, spamming heals when they don't need it, etc) they run dry and die. On TF with CP Templars can just spam BOL perpetually, can't do that on Azura.

Nightblade ganks seem reasonable, even with Viper and proc sets it was possible to survive much of the time. Nightblade ganks are reasonable because just like 1.x

"If they fail to gank you, they are dead...no 16% reduced cost, no 25% more regen, no CP reducing dodge roll, if they can't kill you, they actually have real drawbacks and are basically screwed. this separates the elite gankers from the one button ninja's".

Ganking is still a viable strong playstyle, its just more balanced for the reasons listed above.

Furthermore, on Azura, builds tend to be pushed more into sustain and regen instead of flat damage, what this does is trend damage down which makes TTK higher, this means in many fights you will have a chance to fight back whereas on TF you wouldn't. Also, you cna actually run folks out of resources on Azura, even builds meant to sustain.

Resource draining poisons are very OP in non-CP campaigns though, i'd go as far as to say they should be disabled there....you already lose 25% recover, 16% cost reduction, and all the stats gains from CP....if you make mistakes without a poison on you your dead. So the poisons are really not need. On CP enabled campaigns though, those poisons are def needed to run some builds dry, i try not use them on DPS centered toons, only on certain tank and healer setups as its the only way to really deal with them.

They also need to just get rid of these Player Based Area of Effect skills. Eye of the Storm, Steel Tornado, Impulse, etc and replace them Ground Target AOE. the Ground Target AOE we have in the game now are pretty balanced. Liquid Lighting, Eruption, Wall of Elements, but the PBAOE ones are just broken and favor zergs.

Azura's Star proves these zergs can be dealt with by having effective siege. Siege just lays waste to these ball groups and rightfully so it should. So we won't need these OP PBAOE in the game anymore to deal with them. Every PBAOE in the game is/has just been used by ball groups to stack and burn...Impulse,. Proxy Det, Steel Tornado, and now Eye of the Storm...its a trend...one that needs to be tossed in the trash can...and siege made great again on CP campaigns(if they decide to keep CP) to compensate.....A fire ballista hitting for 17k initial damage sounds about right, a Coldharbor hitting for 23-25k.....

If you can't stand in red circles in VMA or trials, you shouldn't be able to in Cyrodiil either, I don't care how many healers you have...when your being shelled by artillery, you take cover, you move, or you die. its a very simple concept. This is a big part of why Azura and Blackwater Blade don't lag....because siege is deadly.

Sheuib wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

If you don't like CP then stay in Azura. But since the majority of people play in a CP campaign it would appear that most people prefer having CP.

Doubtful. I'm sure people just like having their edge on others that are not max CP.

I would like to point out that even if you take away the champion points, there are some players who will still find a way to continue with the exploits and macros. I am very skeptical at this point that removing champion points will ever make things balanced. Will it help with lag? Perhaps it might, but I still maintain that having everyone in one place is the real issue. Why on earth would ZOS have just one 30 day? It seems like they funneled as many people as possible into one campaign and then sat back and decided that champion points were the cause of lag. It just doesn't make sense. They allow people to enter as many campaigns as they want on all factions which causes cross-faction issues as well. What do we have? Cross faction boosting, no team loyalty, massive zergs that seem to never end, massive lag and disconnects where the zergs are at their worst, random loading screens for no apparent reason, and etc, etc, etc ...

Over in Hade, the lag isn't there for the most part. The lag occurs when the overflow from the TF queue of 2 plus hours enters into Hade while they wait for entering into TF.

I would like to add that a former guildie a few years ago bragged about the fact that he knew exactly how to cause lag in the game at just the right moment. This individual didn't last in the guild for sure. Still, I have to wonder if removing champion points will improve lag if people are able to do this! Will removing the champion points prevent the deliberate lag bombs?

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

If you don't li

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

If you don't like CP then stay in Azura. But since the majority of people play in a CP campaign it would appear that most people prefer having CP.

Doubtful. I'm sure people just like having their edge on others that are not max CP.

Then why do so many people below max CP play in the CP campaign?

Thelon wrote: »

whatever man, at least there's a strong contingent in this game that will agree with you that left-click seige builds are skillful:

I never said they were skillful, I said they were a hard counter to large groups which is needed.

There needs to be more counters to large groups then just bringing more people. Siege should fill that role and on Azura it does.

If it wasn't so idiot friendly to stack Grothdar and EOTS (or some other I sanlt strong PBAOE) in a 12+ man group we wouldn't need better siege.