Stripping CPs from ALL Campaigns?!!!!!

usmcjdking · February 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

Did you just make some numbers up?

You can still get single-rotated in no-cp. Reducing the battle spirit dmg nerf would be quite dramatic.

Celas_Dranacea · February 2017

I'll be fine if they just decide to remove CP permanently - I want balanced pvp with as little lag as possible - I don't need some special status as a maxed CP player just because I have played longer than other people. I have enough build diversity with skills and gear - CP is just an extra thing that eliminates the need to make hard decisions about your build priorities

rfennell_ESO · February 2017

I think Wheeler made a pretty good post about this and detailed it exactly.

It's either CP or it isn't.

What he proposed is the easiest and most conclusive way to find out if it so or isn't so.

I can tell you that on the rare occasion I play on Azura's.. the lag is noticeably less, and I have seen some large 3 way battles over keeps there. But that's conjecture, what they intend to do will likely give them better raw data to make a rationale decision.

Of course they might get a false positive and conclude it's CP when it's really run away resource regen allowing for more ability usage.

geonsocal · February 2017

good players will still be good players - with or without their champion points...

Dr.NRG · February 2017

The lag comes from proc sets. The Devs have confirmd that multiple times bro. The reson for that is that proc sets are calculating at all times to check if they are on cooldowns, who can they hit, how hard will they hit based on resists and cp, and how many people will they hit in the area. If you got a bunch of people around these calculations go off the roof. Sometimes I fight groups with no procs in a small group of 4 and 0 lag. Other times in a dead campaign I 1vX run into 5 ppl, 2 proc Grothdar 1 scoria and boom crazy lag getting stuck, teleporting around or even hit a loading screen instantly.

QuebraRegra · February 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

I applaud this. If you go back, you'll see I said the same things from the very beginning. Obvious.

UppGRAYxDD · February 2017

stamplars just became op for one week...

Hyodyntaa · February 2017

Minno wrote: »

Hyodyntaa wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Every time someone says remove CP and call it a day i cringe. Either you weren't around for pre 1.6 or you have been around since then and have become so accustomed to CP you think it can just be removed.

This game has been changed in almost every aspect to work with CP and the CP passives. Almost every skills has been changed since the introduction of CP and the removal of the old ult system and soft caps. Simply removing CP will not work for PVP or PVE. I understand people do not like how some builds can heal so much or perma block or this and that.

The issue is the values and passives within the CP system need to be adjusted. Things like roll dodge and break free shouldn't fall under the same item and should be spread out. By creating more areas where CP must go it makes players have to spread out the CP more and lowers some values while strengthening others.

Because battle spirit is unique to PVP they can make it so CP passives like unchained for example just do not work in pvp. If you remove CP from the game/pvp then the devs have to go in and adjust all of the racial passives, every skill and class passive. Which would in turn mean a total overhaul of ESO. Lets face it, it took 1.5 years for them to just make a change to Coag which was needed but things like the stacking streak cost that weren't really needed were something added in that time.

This isn't some L2P thing or however the trolls want to call it, it comes down to wanting ESO to be as balanced as possible and making sure its done in a sensible way. I am all for discussion on this as ive had it plenty of times with people who are for and against CP.

I am for CP at this point in the ESO lifespan, but with changes to how the trees and passives in it are placed and adjusted.

I can see that. But at what max cap does the current system represent the game in terms of balance? With every increase comes some sort of power creep and a redesign of the stars themselves would require the input of the PvE community, many of whom feel pvpers have already destroyed their playstyle for the sake of balance for a part of the game they don't enjoy.

That's why it makes sense to turn off CP in pvp only. It's easier to scale mob difficulty than to keep going back to skills every few patches to make sure they are balanced in pvp, which might mess up PvE builds (ie Templar shards/rd change.)

The other argument is they can piggy-back any missing stats via the trip stats gained from adding CP but not the passives or add extra buffs/debuffs to the battle spirit. Definitely much better than spliting CP passives in hope they balance cyro, but potentially gutting PvE builds.

And for the people who enjoy playing with CP rather than no CP against players using increase cost poisons and proc sets where they're even stronger than with CP?

The classes with inbuilt sustain will obviously have a huge advantage over the classes without inbuilt sustain, but even they won't be a match for the current PvP meta.

Well then then question is "what part of the CP makes pvp great?".

If we are pissed about tank builds that can heal/do damage or DPS that can do obscene dmg that it renders light armor pointless; id say the way CP is now inflates the playstyle of PvP. If we are so used to that aspect of the CP system that we cannot notice how bad CP is, I think that's a failure of the game design and should be changed drastically to avoid future derailing discussions of balance.

If CP offers great build diversity, then I'd agree that we should protect the CP system. But currently, you are underperforming of you don't max mighty/elemental expert/thamaturge. And you are dying quicky if you don't have 16% dmg reduction or have less than 40 points in critical resistance (with full impen).

I don't want any pve to dictate our game and us to dictate PvE. Separating CP from pvp ensures that we can balance the game without impacting PvE. Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it just needs the full population to really test if this is the direction the pvp should go. The players just need a nudge to give it a try without giving up.

Go and get rid of poisons and certain proc sets and I think no CP will have more of a chance to succeed. But in Azura, proc sets and poisons are even stronger than they already are in CP campaigns lol.

Minno · February 2017

Hyodyntaa wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Hyodyntaa wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Every time someone says remove CP and call it a day i cringe. Either you weren't around for pre 1.6 or you have been around since then and have become so accustomed to CP you think it can just be removed.

This game has been changed in almost every aspect to work with CP and the CP passives. Almost every skills has been changed since the introduction of CP and the removal of the old ult system and soft caps. Simply removing CP will not work for PVP or PVE. I understand people do not like how some builds can heal so much or perma block or this and that.

The issue is the values and passives within the CP system need to be adjusted. Things like roll dodge and break free shouldn't fall under the same item and should be spread out. By creating more areas where CP must go it makes players have to spread out the CP more and lowers some values while strengthening others.

Because battle spirit is unique to PVP they can make it so CP passives like unchained for example just do not work in pvp. If you remove CP from the game/pvp then the devs have to go in and adjust all of the racial passives, every skill and class passive. Which would in turn mean a total overhaul of ESO. Lets face it, it took 1.5 years for them to just make a change to Coag which was needed but things like the stacking streak cost that weren't really needed were something added in that time.

This isn't some L2P thing or however the trolls want to call it, it comes down to wanting ESO to be as balanced as possible and making sure its done in a sensible way. I am all for discussion on this as ive had it plenty of times with people who are for and against CP.

I am for CP at this point in the ESO lifespan, but with changes to how the trees and passives in it are placed and adjusted.

I can see that. But at what max cap does the current system represent the game in terms of balance? With every increase comes some sort of power creep and a redesign of the stars themselves would require the input of the PvE community, many of whom feel pvpers have already destroyed their playstyle for the sake of balance for a part of the game they don't enjoy.

That's why it makes sense to turn off CP in pvp only. It's easier to scale mob difficulty than to keep going back to skills every few patches to make sure they are balanced in pvp, which might mess up PvE builds (ie Templar shards/rd change.)

The other argument is they can piggy-back any missing stats via the trip stats gained from adding CP but not the passives or add extra buffs/debuffs to the battle spirit. Definitely much better than spliting CP passives in hope they balance cyro, but potentially gutting PvE builds.

And for the people who enjoy playing with CP rather than no CP against players using increase cost poisons and proc sets where they're even stronger than with CP?

The classes with inbuilt sustain will obviously have a huge advantage over the classes without inbuilt sustain, but even they won't be a match for the current PvP meta.

Well then then question is "what part of the CP makes pvp great?".

If we are pissed about tank builds that can heal/do damage or DPS that can do obscene dmg that it renders light armor pointless; id say the way CP is now inflates the playstyle of PvP. If we are so used to that aspect of the CP system that we cannot notice how bad CP is, I think that's a failure of the game design and should be changed drastically to avoid future derailing discussions of balance.

If CP offers great build diversity, then I'd agree that we should protect the CP system. But currently, you are underperforming of you don't max mighty/elemental expert/thamaturge. And you are dying quicky if you don't have 16% dmg reduction or have less than 40 points in critical resistance (with full impen).

I don't want any pve to dictate our game and us to dictate PvE. Separating CP from pvp ensures that we can balance the game without impacting PvE. Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it just needs the full population to really test if this is the direction the pvp should go. The players just need a nudge to give it a try without giving up.

Go and get rid of poisons and certain proc sets and I think no CP will have more of a chance to succeed. But in Azura, proc sets and poisons are even stronger than they already are in CP campaigns lol.

That's because proc sets and poisons are a symptom that relate to the tank/heal power creep created by CP. Both will need to be reviewed to ensure proper balance.

Telel · February 2017

Khajiit just had a super elf thought. That is to say one filled with paranoia and worries over clandestine things not meant for mortal senses.

What if this is an attempt to suss out certain someone's who do a certain thing with a certain other thing to get things and do things they should not get?

Also, this one will just eat orcish hot pockets for a week instead of tasty tasty rabbit. Thus they are not worried and in fact welcome the change in diet.

Magus · February 2017

Correlation does not equal causation but I'll participate in the test. I would argue that yes, Azura's sees less lag than TF but it's the playstyles causing the difference not the CPs.

PC NA Azura's does get a lot of people now but the playstyle there is different and the numbers engaged in battles are not the same as Trueflame.

Azuras usually has a 40-60 man DC blob group running around. It doesn't create that much lag because they are not fighting another 40-60 man blob group. There are generally not equal numbers fighting them in any instance. But more importantly, this is a real zerg. It's not a coordinated ball group with AOEs destroying everything like you see in Trueflame - aside from one 24 man group, it's a collection of smaller groups running around near each other but not on top of each other. Trueflame when it lags sees 80 vs 120 in fights with multiple coordinated raids. Azura's does not touch that high population in any fights that I've seen.

So, for this test, I would say get as many 24 man groups as you can and get them to stack on each other and fight other stacks and I will bet it will lag worse than it does now.

BlackMadara · February 2017

Everybody worried about the complete removal are acting like paranoid sheep. Read the post from the devs.

They want to test cp effects on the server in high population servers. This is a diagnostic tool. CP, as unbalanced as they are , are a integral part of eso progression. The first step to solving an issue is to determine the cause of defect. Look at cp like the liver. If you are sick, find out what is wrong with your body. If it's your liver, try to fix the issue. If it's not, don't take meds or have surgery that affects your liver.

If cp are an issue, this will probably lead to attempts to change the way it is calculated in their servers. If it isn't an issue, there is no reason to waste resources doing such a thing.

Stop spreading unneeded concern about cp being permanently removed. Removing and/or replacing an organ is a last ditch effort for survival.

BuggeX · February 2017

guys stop *** arround, cps arnt causing lags, azura can lag such as tf

catalyst10e · February 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

Everybody worried about the complete removal are acting like paranoid sheep. Read the post from the devs.

They want to test cp effects on the server in high population servers. This is a diagnostic tool. CP, as unbalanced as they are , are a integral part of eso progression. The first step to solving an issue is to determine the cause of defect. Look at cp like the liver. If you are sick, find out what is wrong with your body. If it's your liver, try to fix the issue. If it's not, don't take meds or have surgery that affects your liver.

If cp are an issue, this will probably lead to attempts to change the way it is calculated in their servers. If it isn't an issue, there is no reason to waste resources doing such a thing.

Stop spreading unneeded concern about cp being permanently removed. Removing and/or replacing an organ is a last ditch effort for survival.

To use your own metaphor, What the devs are doing would amount to Doctors suspecting the cause of your illness is the liver, and just remove it to see if it fixes the problem. They arent treating the disease. If it is indeed the last ditch effort why are they doing it now? and If it is the issue they didn't say they would "replace" the "organ". Are you suggesting it IS that bad? that this IS the last ditch effort?

All this was said before, back before AOE caps, it was suggested; "well in the lvl 10-50 campaign, they dont have lag, and we think it's because at those lower levels they dont have access to spam AOE moves hitting a bunch of people... So we're going to put caps on all the AOE skills to reduce the lag" Here we are again in the same scenario only this time they "think it's the CP passives... the newbie campaign doesnt have any issues, and maybe its because they dont have CP!" We're still dealing with the effects of AOE caps, and if this test "proves" what they thought all along theres a high chance CP get removed from PVP entirely.

I'm all for a test, I'll participate in this "event" but don't act like they're just doing an evasive unnecessary test for the sake of "just testing, so we can later fix the problem". Check the new codes that have gone in before outright removal. "We added proc sets that have a lot of calculations they make constantly per second and suddenly there's a bunch of lag, must be CP."

Sigma957 · February 2017

I plan on going into Cyro TF next week during the test to see if there is any difference but with no CP then I will have to make some sustaining gear and or use drinks. Hopefully after the testing is done measures can be taken to improve pvp.

ArcVelarian · February 2017

Durham wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

This is just going to lead to no cp in all pvp campaigns.

Lag existed before CP... actually started with the lighting patch right after release

Yeah, the interior lighting patch to be specific.

BlackMadara · February 2017

catalyst10e wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Everybody worried about the complete removal are acting like paranoid sheep. Read the post from the devs.

They want to test cp effects on the server in high population servers. This is a diagnostic tool. CP, as unbalanced as they are , are a integral part of eso progression. The first step to solving an issue is to determine the cause of defect. Look at cp like the liver. If you are sick, find out what is wrong with your body. If it's your liver, try to fix the issue. If it's not, don't take meds or have surgery that affects your liver.

If cp are an issue, this will probably lead to attempts to change the way it is calculated in their servers. If it isn't an issue, there is no reason to waste resources doing such a thing.

Stop spreading unneeded concern about cp being permanently removed. Removing and/or replacing an organ is a last ditch effort for survival.

To use your own metaphor, What the devs are doing would amount to Doctors suspecting the cause of your illness is the liver, and just remove it to see if it fixes the problem. They arent treating the disease. If it is indeed the last ditch effort why are they doing it now? and If it is the issue they didn't say they would "replace" the "organ". Are you suggesting it IS that bad? that this IS the last ditch effort?

All this was said before, back before AOE caps, it was suggested; "well in the lvl 10-50 campaign, they dont have lag, and we think it's because at those lower levels they dont have access to spam AOE moves hitting a bunch of people... So we're going to put caps on all the AOE skills to reduce the lag" Here we are again in the same scenario only this time they "think it's the CP passives... the newbie campaign doesnt have any issues, and maybe its because they dont have CP!" We're still dealing with the effects of AOE caps, and if this test "proves" what they thought all along theres a high chance CP get removed from PVP entirely.

I'm all for a test, I'll participate in this "event" but don't act like they're just doing an evasive unnecessary test for the sake of "just testing, so we can later fix the problem". Check the new codes that have gone in before outright removal. "We added proc sets that have a lot of calculations they make constantly per second and suddenly there's a bunch of lag, must be CP."

This is the only way they can test this type of issue. Like invasive testing. ZOS cannot test this type of issue on their internal servers due to the sheer lack of numbers.

I wasn't around during aoe cap introduction, but, to my understanding, aoe caps do not stop aoe from htting players until you reach 60 targets. They just reduce damage taken past 6. Which means you still have the same amount of calculations, if not more. Seems to me it was something to stop large groups from being bombed easily. I'm not sure, because I haven't seen their reasoning for aoe caps.

I doubt that there is a high chance cp will be removed from pvp if it is contributing to lag. They know that people play on cp campaigns because they like cp. ZOS isn't stupid enough to do something like that without trying everything else they can. Yes they've made changes that increased lag in cyrodil but they know pvp is a large factor for attracting new players and the back lash of such a change will hurt their pocket book. They don't want that. They want money.

Believe what you want. I refuse to jump to massively over done conclusions when zos is finally showing that they care about their game and the community. Look at how they handled this last patch with their dev notes and increased communication. Or don't and speculate and whine. Just don't try to convince people that cp is going away because you are afraid of this test.

catalyst10e · February 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Everybody worried about the complete removal are acting like paranoid sheep. Read the post from the devs.

They want to test cp effects on the server in high population servers. This is a diagnostic tool. CP, as unbalanced as they are , are a integral part of eso progression. The first step to solving an issue is to determine the cause of defect. Look at cp like the liver. If you are sick, find out what is wrong with your body. If it's your liver, try to fix the issue. If it's not, don't take meds or have surgery that affects your liver.

If cp are an issue, this will probably lead to attempts to change the way it is calculated in their servers. If it isn't an issue, there is no reason to waste resources doing such a thing.

Stop spreading unneeded concern about cp being permanently removed. Removing and/or replacing an organ is a last ditch effort for survival.

To use your own metaphor, What the devs are doing would amount to Doctors suspecting the cause of your illness is the liver, and just remove it to see if it fixes the problem. They arent treating the disease. If it is indeed the last ditch effort why are they doing it now? and If it is the issue they didn't say they would "replace" the "organ". Are you suggesting it IS that bad? that this IS the last ditch effort?

All this was said before, back before AOE caps, it was suggested; "well in the lvl 10-50 campaign, they dont have lag, and we think it's because at those lower levels they dont have access to spam AOE moves hitting a bunch of people... So we're going to put caps on all the AOE skills to reduce the lag" Here we are again in the same scenario only this time they "think it's the CP passives... the newbie campaign doesnt have any issues, and maybe its because they dont have CP!" We're still dealing with the effects of AOE caps, and if this test "proves" what they thought all along theres a high chance CP get removed from PVP entirely.

I'm all for a test, I'll participate in this "event" but don't act like they're just doing an evasive unnecessary test for the sake of "just testing, so we can later fix the problem". Check the new codes that have gone in before outright removal. "We added proc sets that have a lot of calculations they make constantly per second and suddenly there's a bunch of lag, must be CP."

This is the only way they can test this type of issue. Like invasive testing. ZOS cannot test this type of issue on their internal servers due to the sheer lack of numbers.

I wasn't around during aoe cap introduction, but, to my understanding, aoe caps do not stop aoe from htting players until you reach 60 targets. They just reduce damage taken past 6. Which means you still have the same amount of calculations, if not more. Seems to me it was something to stop large groups from being bombed easily. I'm not sure, because I haven't seen their reasoning for aoe caps.

I doubt that there is a high chance cp will be removed from pvp if it is contributing to lag. They know that people play on cp campaigns because they like cp. ZOS isn't stupid enough to do something like that without trying everything else they can. Yes they've made changes that increased lag in cyrodil but they know pvp is a large factor for attracting new players and the back lash of such a change will hurt their pocket book. They don't want that. They want money.

Believe what you want. I refuse to jump to massively over done conclusions when zos is finally showing that they care about their game and the community. Look at how they handled this last patch with their dev notes and increased communication. Or don't and speculate and whine. Just don't try to convince people that cp is going away because you are afraid of this test.

Don't have the numbers? it wouldnt be hard to generate NPCs with max CP and fill the server with the max numbers and test it. They don't NEED people, even the most basic company's keep a Dev server on hand for testing things before they go live. This is at best a lazy work around, to just put it up on live servers and claim it's a test and treat it like an event for "good PR".

What's the point of a PTS if you don't even use it? It can be closed down for dev tests, Temp agencies can hire people for pennys on the dollar begging to "break into the video game business" to test it for them for days and weeks on end. You could then test specifics like which CP pssive may be causing lag, or which proc sets, or which skill.. whatever it may be they can get extensive testing done in a shorter amount of time, and have real raw data to look at and alter.

AOE damage was thought to be a contributor to lag, If I could remember what server they had referenced I'd go back and grab the dev's actual words. They thought it was a factor with lag, and also wanted to stop bomb builds, but now we still have bomb builds and solo players have little options when dealing with zergs.

Why is the server running checks through the CP system at all anyways? why does the code have to reroute through the CP passives in order to get it's calculations? Wouldnt it be easier to just have your damage rating checked against my character sheet's defenses which should already have the CP values ingrained in them? Why attack the CP passives system and not the damage calculator? Theres a lot of factors here and simply removing the CP system to see if it helps doesnt answer any of them.

Why wouldnt they remove CP for PVP? They introduced battle spirit to make things "balanced". So that No matter what your level was everything was essentially equal among players other than gear sets and CP, to remove CP adds the extra layer of "balance" now the only thing that separates players in cyrodiil would be the gear they have on. They have Dueling, and battlegrounds on the way which could support CP based PVP, why is it not in the realm of possibility CP is removed entirely from the larger PVP? PVP is NOT a large factor, not only do they not care much about PVP, go out and read any article covering ESO, none of them mention PVP being a key reason to play. The marketing never promotes PVP, DLC content hasn't added anything to PVP, and large portions of the community itself blame PVP for problems the game has.

Of course they want money and whats going to get them more money? the legions of players who are fairly new and can jump into PVP at level 10 and be on an even footing with nearly everyone, or the sub group of the "hard core" who want CP to stay? Business models like these ones will never favor their "hardcore" fanbase because they dont produce enough money, that's true in every F2P or B2P game. it's why content has been getting easier as we get more so that newer players who typically spend the most money can enjoy all the content as early as possible to keep spending money. I'm not going to comment on if thats good or bad, it is what it is... but the bottom line of that is, since theres this huge "wall" of a hurdle for most people to even set foot in Cyrodiil already because of how powerful some characters are (in large part due to CP) if removing CP would even out the balance AND remove the hurdle for new players to join in on the action why wouldnt they take it?

These are not "over done" conclusions, you're being willfully ignorant to the facts surrounding you, and just dont want to listen to the possibilities or ramifications. Who said I was "afraid" of the test? The removal of CP is a very real possibility given their track record that you're ignoring, and I am taking advantage of the "voice your opinion" option on their forums to say "please don't do that"

DHale · February 2017

You guys have given me a good laugh you are sayin proc sets cause lag... seemed there was lots of lag prior to proc sets also I was in azura last night viper and validreth all over the place. For you who believe cp causes lag ahhhhh what about the lag before the cp system? But no matter how this shakes out bad players will still get shrecked and the good players will still dominate. But I was glad to see getting bow light attacked and two hander light half way through every fight was a thing on Azura. Of course that is going to reduce lag when people can't cast all their abilities.

Subversus · February 2017

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

stamplars just became op for one week...

Like they weren't already op lmfao

Xeniph · February 2017

I'm not sure I pay my sub to beta test pvp.

To top that off I remember pvp pre CP and it was stale as all get out. This is the reason I avoid the non CP campaign like the plague.

I for one will be voiding this "testing" session, since double bonus, to a currency that we have nothing to really spend on, is not much of an incentive.

Minalan · February 2017

I hear a lot of garbage about how no CP 'makes teamwork more important!'

This is what 'yay teamwork!' eventually looks like:

Zergling heaven.

Joy_Division · February 2017

Minno wrote: »

Hyodyntaa wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Every time someone says remove CP and call it a day i cringe. Either you weren't around for pre 1.6 or you have been around since then and have become so accustomed to CP you think it can just be removed.

This game has been changed in almost every aspect to work with CP and the CP passives. Almost every skills has been changed since the introduction of CP and the removal of the old ult system and soft caps. Simply removing CP will not work for PVP or PVE. I understand people do not like how some builds can heal so much or perma block or this and that.

The issue is the values and passives within the CP system need to be adjusted. Things like roll dodge and break free shouldn't fall under the same item and should be spread out. By creating more areas where CP must go it makes players have to spread out the CP more and lowers some values while strengthening others.

Because battle spirit is unique to PVP they can make it so CP passives like unchained for example just do not work in pvp. If you remove CP from the game/pvp then the devs have to go in and adjust all of the racial passives, every skill and class passive. Which would in turn mean a total overhaul of ESO. Lets face it, it took 1.5 years for them to just make a change to Coag which was needed but things like the stacking streak cost that weren't really needed were something added in that time.

This isn't some L2P thing or however the trolls want to call it, it comes down to wanting ESO to be as balanced as possible and making sure its done in a sensible way. I am all for discussion on this as ive had it plenty of times with people who are for and against CP.

I am for CP at this point in the ESO lifespan, but with changes to how the trees and passives in it are placed and adjusted.

I can see that. But at what max cap does the current system represent the game in terms of balance? With every increase comes some sort of power creep and a redesign of the stars themselves would require the input of the PvE community, many of whom feel pvpers have already destroyed their playstyle for the sake of balance for a part of the game they don't enjoy.

That's why it makes sense to turn off CP in pvp only. It's easier to scale mob difficulty than to keep going back to skills every few patches to make sure they are balanced in pvp, which might mess up PvE builds (ie Templar shards/rd change.)

The other argument is they can piggy-back any missing stats via the trip stats gained from adding CP but not the passives or add extra buffs/debuffs to the battle spirit. Definitely much better than spliting CP passives in hope they balance cyro, but potentially gutting PvE builds.

And for the people who enjoy playing with CP rather than no CP against players using increase cost poisons and proc sets where they're even stronger than with CP?

The classes with inbuilt sustain will obviously have a huge advantage over the classes without inbuilt sustain, but even they won't be a match for the current PvP meta.

Well then then question is "what part of the CP makes pvp great?".

If we are pissed about tank builds that can heal/do damage or DPS that can do obscene dmg that it renders light armor pointless; id say the way CP is now inflates the playstyle of PvP. If we are so used to that aspect of the CP system that we cannot notice how bad CP is, I think that's a failure of the game design and should be changed drastically to avoid future derailing discussions of balance.

If CP offers great build diversity, then I'd agree that we should protect the CP system. But currently, you are underperforming of you don't max mighty/elemental expert/thamaturge. And you are dying quicky if you don't have 16% dmg reduction or have less than 40 points in critical resistance (with full impen).

I don't want any pve to dictate our game and us to dictate PvE. Separating CP from pvp ensures that we can balance the game without impacting PvE. Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it just needs the full population to really test if this is the direction the pvp should go. The players just need a nudge to give it a try without giving up.

For you, the answer is I am guessing "nothing." But that's you.

CP does offer build variety. How many heavy armor seducer armor sets you think have just been crafted since the announcement has been made? Yes, sustain is easier on CP campaigns, but when people say everyone has infinite resources is just parroting incorrect and misleading information too simply promote their preferred playstyle. When I use my templar, she wears Lich and there are times I run out of magicka. When I play my light armor sorcerer, I run out of resources *a lot* because I put absolutely zero effort into sustain. The very fact it is possible to use heavy armor in something else besides a "tank" build contradicts the very assertion that CP does not offer greater build diversity. It is possible that the game is not enhanced when too much emphasis is placed on resource management; just making it harder to do that does not automatically make the game better, offer more vareity, or make it more skillful.

PvE will always dictate PvP and detaching CP will do nothing to change that. Skills, armor set bonuses, procs, poisons, etc do what they do because of PVE and when PvE had 600 CPs, those 600 CPs will factor into ZoS's decisions. Or do you honestly think ZoS will disable poisons, armor sets, and take the time / resources to make two versions of every skill? Sure, Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it also proves it's a terrible idea to have two different game systems: or are you looking forward to sorcerers who can more easily shrug off the prohibitive resource costs, procs becoming relatively stronger (and I'm not just talking damage) , or your magicka skills costing 60% more every 10 seconds from the poison I'll be using?

I have about as much desire to PvP in a setting with no procs, no "PVE" armor sets, no progression, etc., any more than I desire to play a shooter game with only pistols.

I'm not saying ZoS's CP system is good. It's not. Straight percentage gains is about as dull and a dubious progression system possible: we all know what the crap stars are and which ones are necessary to compete. The CP system should mostly be a way to customize our characters by picking stuff that either augments our abilities or allows us to do interesting things beyond the scope of our skill-lines. That was the mistake ZoS made. I would prefer that their reforms move in this direction rather than just throwing their hands up in the air and quit. They can't balance one game system and people honestly think they'll all of a sudden be able to balance two completely different systems that work against each other?

allup8679 · February 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

I think Wheeler made a pretty good post about this and detailed it exactly.

It's either CP or it isn't.

What he proposed is the easiest and most conclusive way to find out if it so or isn't so.

I can tell you that on the rare occasion I play on Azura's.. the lag is noticeably less, and I have seen some large 3 way battles over keeps there. But that's conjecture, what they intend to do will likely give them better raw data to make a rationale decision.

Of course they might get a false positive and conclude it's CP when it's really run away resource regen allowing for more ability usage.

But honestly, how can they accurately gauge whether or not it's CP to blame when the week that they're checking, they close servers condensing the PVP base even more?? Logic would tell you that the same number of players on fewer servers would create problems on its own besides giving them less examples to extrapolate data from.

Minno · February 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Hyodyntaa wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Every time someone says remove CP and call it a day i cringe. Either you weren't around for pre 1.6 or you have been around since then and have become so accustomed to CP you think it can just be removed.

This game has been changed in almost every aspect to work with CP and the CP passives. Almost every skills has been changed since the introduction of CP and the removal of the old ult system and soft caps. Simply removing CP will not work for PVP or PVE. I understand people do not like how some builds can heal so much or perma block or this and that.

The issue is the values and passives within the CP system need to be adjusted. Things like roll dodge and break free shouldn't fall under the same item and should be spread out. By creating more areas where CP must go it makes players have to spread out the CP more and lowers some values while strengthening others.

Because battle spirit is unique to PVP they can make it so CP passives like unchained for example just do not work in pvp. If you remove CP from the game/pvp then the devs have to go in and adjust all of the racial passives, every skill and class passive. Which would in turn mean a total overhaul of ESO. Lets face it, it took 1.5 years for them to just make a change to Coag which was needed but things like the stacking streak cost that weren't really needed were something added in that time.

This isn't some L2P thing or however the trolls want to call it, it comes down to wanting ESO to be as balanced as possible and making sure its done in a sensible way. I am all for discussion on this as ive had it plenty of times with people who are for and against CP.

I am for CP at this point in the ESO lifespan, but with changes to how the trees and passives in it are placed and adjusted.

I can see that. But at what max cap does the current system represent the game in terms of balance? With every increase comes some sort of power creep and a redesign of the stars themselves would require the input of the PvE community, many of whom feel pvpers have already destroyed their playstyle for the sake of balance for a part of the game they don't enjoy.

That's why it makes sense to turn off CP in pvp only. It's easier to scale mob difficulty than to keep going back to skills every few patches to make sure they are balanced in pvp, which might mess up PvE builds (ie Templar shards/rd change.)

The other argument is they can piggy-back any missing stats via the trip stats gained from adding CP but not the passives or add extra buffs/debuffs to the battle spirit. Definitely much better than spliting CP passives in hope they balance cyro, but potentially gutting PvE builds.

And for the people who enjoy playing with CP rather than no CP against players using increase cost poisons and proc sets where they're even stronger than with CP?

The classes with inbuilt sustain will obviously have a huge advantage over the classes without inbuilt sustain, but even they won't be a match for the current PvP meta.

Well then then question is "what part of the CP makes pvp great?".

If we are pissed about tank builds that can heal/do damage or DPS that can do obscene dmg that it renders light armor pointless; id say the way CP is now inflates the playstyle of PvP. If we are so used to that aspect of the CP system that we cannot notice how bad CP is, I think that's a failure of the game design and should be changed drastically to avoid future derailing discussions of balance.

If CP offers great build diversity, then I'd agree that we should protect the CP system. But currently, you are underperforming of you don't max mighty/elemental expert/thamaturge. And you are dying quicky if you don't have 16% dmg reduction or have less than 40 points in critical resistance (with full impen).

I don't want any pve to dictate our game and us to dictate PvE. Separating CP from pvp ensures that we can balance the game without impacting PvE. Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it just needs the full population to really test if this is the direction the pvp should go. The players just need a nudge to give it a try without giving up.

For you, the answer is I am guessing "nothing." But that's you.

CP does offer build variety. How many heavy armor seducer armor sets you think have just been crafted since the announcement has been made? Yes, sustain is easier on CP campaigns, but when people say everyone has infinite resources is just parroting incorrect and misleading information too simply promote their preferred playstyle. When I use my templar, she wears Lich and there are times I run out of magicka. When I play my light armor sorcerer, I run out of resources *a lot* because I put absolutely zero effort into sustain. The very fact it is possible to use heavy armor in something else besides a "tank" build contradicts the very assertion that CP does not offer greater build diversity. It is possible that the game is not enhanced when too much emphasis is placed on resource management; just making it harder to do that does not automatically make the game better, offer more vareity, or make it more skillful.

PvE will always dictate PvP and detaching CP will do nothing to change that. Skills, armor set bonuses, procs, poisons, etc do what they do because of PVE and when PvE had 600 CPs, those 600 CPs will factor into ZoS's decisions. Or do you honestly think ZoS will disable poisons, armor sets, and take the time / resources to make two versions of every skill? Sure, Azura Star proves no CP is possible, it also proves it's a terrible idea to have two different game systems: or are you looking forward to sorcerers who can more easily shrug off the prohibitive resource costs, procs becoming relatively stronger (and I'm not just talking damage) , or your magicka skills costing 60% more every 10 seconds from the poison I'll be using?

I have about as much desire to PvP in a setting with no procs, no "PVE" armor sets, no progression, etc., any more than I desire to play a shooter game with only pistols.

I'm not saying ZoS's CP system is good. It's not. Straight percentage gains is about as dull and a dubious progression system possible: we all know what the crap stars are and which ones are necessary to compete. The CP system should mostly be a way to customize our characters by picking stuff that either augments our abilities or allows us to do interesting things beyond the scope of our skill-lines. That was the mistake ZoS made. I would prefer that their reforms move in this direction rather than just throwing their hands up in the air and quit. They can't balance one game system and people honestly think they'll all of a sudden be able to balance two completely different systems that work against each other?

That realization makes sense. It's tough to balance changes without harming other playing nodes. Regardless, there are still sets that are not BiS that they could make BIS without distracting from pve (basically all of the cyro sets.). If the Regen is an issue, they could add extra regen in the battle spirit to compensate. It doesn't have to be just health. But all of this requires testing and they need to test how our guilds and players function without CP to help benchmark what is the minimum to play.

Now most of our discussion is solely based on open world pvp, which continues to be plagued by "zerging". We all will need to discuss how to get CP to work with 4v4v4 battlegrounds and so far we haven't really dived into that.

AnnieBeGood · February 2017

I play on Azura. It took a little persuation but now I love it. No cp ..... so essentially she is playing as a vet 160 and its fun. No lag (or very little), more even playing field and no stupid massive hits from nowhere. Yes there are still zergs but they can be dealt with. You have to play as if you know what you are doing

(I will get there) The biggest thing you learn is resource management.
Her cp stays as it is to go back to pve where she operates as a healer. (not in Azura though) But even in pve my chars are stupidly strong.
People seem to 'wear ' cp as a badge.... it isn't you know, it means you spent far too long in this game. I have ... cause I have nearly 800.

Anazasi · February 2017

Telel wrote: »

Khajiit just had a super elf thought. That is to say one filled with paranoia and worries over clandestine things not meant for mortal senses.

What if this is an attempt to suss out certain someone's who do a certain thing with a certain other thing to get things and do things they should not get?

Also, this one will just eat orcish hot pockets for a week instead of tasty tasty rabbit. Thus they are not worried and in fact welcome the change in diet.

OMG I know what and who you are talking about.......ROFL

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Actually the CP system is why the game is so broken it should be gone

What they should do is:

1. Remove CP from all campaigns
2. Reduce damage, healing, and shield value penalties from 50% to 15%
3. Increase max health given from battle spirit by 1000

Call it a day. I know they won't bring back softcaps, but this will be as close as it gets. The infinite resource, sustain, tankiness, high damage meta needs to go.

You should be able to do one maybe two roles well(healing, tanking, and DPS) but not all three like it currently is.

The CP system is failure and I think ZOS may finally be seeing that with the absurd power creep. If they adjusted the Cyrodiil values as I stated above with removing CP we would be soooooooooo close to 1.5 pvp with much better balance, but CP simply allows you to shore up weaknesses in your spec. It really should be this way. Tanks, healers, and DPS need to have profound weaknesses and they will never have them as long as cp is as it is.

Did you just make some numbers up?

You can still get single-rotated in no-cp. Reducing the battle spirit dmg nerf would be quite dramatic.

No that's how Battlespirit was Before IC and before they capped CP. the first two months of 1.6 were awesome when most folks only had 130-160cp.

I have been playing on Azura and damage seems reasonable. Sure if you make mistakes or are not careful resource wise, you die but that's fair.

Poisons would probably need adjusted though. Poisons are crazy OP on no-CP campaigns. No CP is not perfect, but it's better then the CP enabled campaign for fights

Subversus · February 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I'll be fine if they just decide to remove CP permanently - I want balanced pvp with as little lag as possible - I don't need some special status as a maxed CP player just because I have played longer than other people. I have enough build diversity with skills and gear - CP is just an extra thing that eliminates the need to make hard decisions about your build priorities

What? CP does not eliminate the hard decisions, it gives you literally everything. It gives you infinite sustain and insane resistances while you can stack heavy armor damage sets for even more sustain, resistances and stupid high damage. Please tell me how my 31k spell resist 30k physical resist with 4.1k weapon damage (without wrath or enchant) and 18k penetration is balanced? There will never be balance as long as CP exists.

iseko · February 2017

Its not cp. Its playstyle. Azura does not have as many eots trains. It rarely lags for me on azura. Even in 4raids vs 4 raids in a siege it rarely lags.

It only lags as mad when aoe's are being spammed (eots, healing springs, meteor,....) In close quarters.

An aoe train of 24 riding into an enemy zerg will bring the server to its knees.

This type of play is seen infrequently in azura EU pc.

CP might not help 1) for the extra calculations and 2) infinite sustain allowing more skill spamming. Not sure though. Just my observation.

Ps: ive had people complain about "lagg" in large scales when I wasn't lagging at all. They were running the game on *** pc's tho. Framerate drops is not lag. Its just your computer catching fire.