Curse Stacking

KaiDynasty · February 2017

I recently noticed that curses can stack if applied from different casters.
Is it intended? I mean, ideally if 5 sorcs apply a curse on me, and i don't shield stack, i am dead because i receive 25k of unblockable damage, is it right?
I know there are purge skills, but atm they aren't affordable for their cost (6000 magicka if heavy armor).
Is it possible to fix how it works on players? (To don't affect pve since there are multiple curses on bosses). I don't want to ask a nerf hammer, just a way to avoid this situation because it's annoying when you are a stamina char or a class that is not templar.
I ask suggestion and your guess, if this skill should stack on players or not.
Thank you and sorry for possible english mistakes.

Foxic · February 2017

Yeah it bursts hard, but you'd be dead by just about anything if 5 people all hit you at once

Koolio · February 2017

I'm trying to think of any move that doesn't work if you stack them from multiple people. I can't think of any

Waffennacht · February 2017

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

Minalan · February 2017

It's okay, people are just starting to see more sorcs now. People who shelved them and went stamina are playing again.

People aren't used to sorcs being a threat, instead of being free-AP party favors.

STEVIL · February 2017

Five folks just cursed me so i will take 8kx5 in 3.5s unblockable.

five folks just force pulsed me so i take 15x2k right friggin now - not dodgeable - and yeah every second between now and the 3.5.

i suspect you will hear the curse bangs from your recap screen which reads "force pulse ate you alive"

Hint: balance discussions of single abilities should not start at 5 vs 1.

Koolio · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Five folks just cursed me so i will take 8kx5 in 3.5s unblockable.

five folks just force pulsed me so i take 15x2k right friggin now - not dodgeable - and yeah every second between now and the 3.5.

i suspect you will hear the curse bangs from your recap screen which reads "force pulse ate you alive"

Hint: balance discussions of single abilities should not start at 5 vs 1.

I did read the patch notes where it said that it is no longer reflectable. Can you no longer dodge it either?

Minalan · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Five folks just cursed me so i will take 8kx5 in 3.5s unblockable.

five folks just force pulsed me so i take 15x2k right friggin now - not dodgeable - and yeah every second between now and the 3.5.

i suspect you will hear the curse bangs from your recap screen which reads "force pulse ate you alive"

Hint: balance discussions of single abilities should not start at 5 vs 1.

Psst! Force pulse is dodgeable. It's just not reflectable anymore. Huge difference.

I can't agree more about your hint.

DHale · February 2017

Hey guys it appears incap stacks, if five nightblades incap me why can't I survive?

Mr_Nobody · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

That's kinda not the point. The point is that if you get hit by 5 frags, it's going to hurt.

5 players ganging up on one player should, vastly more often than not, result in the player who's ganged up on dying.

maxjapank · February 2017

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

That's kinda not the point. The point is that if you get hit by 5 frags, it's going to hurt.

5 players ganging up on one player should, vastly more often than not, result in the player who's ganged up on dying.

I partly agree. But I am interested in this thread and what people think. Take the Templar's Backlash, for example. It is unblockable and yet you can only have one active morph on a player at a time. Isn't that so? So why is Curse different here?

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

maxjapank wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

That's kinda not the point. The point is that if you get hit by 5 frags, it's going to hurt.

5 players ganging up on one player should, vastly more often than not, result in the player who's ganged up on dying.

I partly agree. But I am interested in this thread and what people think. Take the Templar's Backlash, for example. It is unblockable and yet you can only have one active morph on a player at a time. Isn't that so? So why is Curse different here?

Well, Backlash copies all damage caused to the target, including the damage dealt by other squad members/teammates/random passers by from the same alliance. Also, one player alone might have a tough time hitting the damage cap on Backlash, especially in PvP. So even one instance of Backlash can be stronger with multiple players, whereas with Curse, it cannot, as Curse has a set damage value (a set damage value lower than the damage cap of Backlash, I might add).

maxjapank · February 2017

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

That's kinda not the point. The point is that if you get hit by 5 frags, it's going to hurt.

5 players ganging up on one player should, vastly more often than not, result in the player who's ganged up on dying.

I partly agree. But I am interested in this thread and what people think. Take the Templar's Backlash, for example. It is unblockable and yet you can only have one active morph on a player at a time. Isn't that so? So why is Curse different here?

Well, Backlash copies all damage caused to the target, including the damage dealt by other squad members/teammates/random passers by from the same alliance. Also, one player alone might have a tough time hitting the damage cap on Backlash, especially in PvP. So even one instance of Backlash can be stronger with multiple players, whereas with Curse, it cannot, as Curse has a set damage value (a set damage value lower than the damage cap of Backlash, I might add).

Backlash can hit for up to 11k, potentially. How much can Curse hit up to?

FriedEggSandwich · February 2017

Curses were allowed to stack from different players back in 1.5/1.6 I think. Believe it or not before then curses from different players would overwrite each other, it was a complete mess in pvp as you can imagine. I remember everyone's relief when they allowed us to stack them.

maxjapank wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Can you take 5 frags to the face just fine?

you can dodge 5 frags, just fine.

That's kinda not the point. The point is that if you get hit by 5 frags, it's going to hurt.

5 players ganging up on one player should, vastly more often than not, result in the player who's ganged up on dying.

I partly agree. But I am interested in this thread and what people think. Take the Templar's Backlash, for example. It is unblockable and yet you can only have one active morph on a player at a time. Isn't that so? So why is Curse different here?

Well, Backlash copies all damage caused to the target, including the damage dealt by other squad members/teammates/random passers by from the same alliance. Also, one player alone might have a tough time hitting the damage cap on Backlash, especially in PvP. So even one instance of Backlash can be stronger with multiple players, whereas with Curse, it cannot, as Curse has a set damage value (a set damage value lower than the damage cap of Backlash, I might add).

Backlash can hit for up to 11k, potentially. How much can Curse hit up to?

Highest curse I was hit for in pvp was about 7k crit while in full light armour and with no impen. Curse will always hit for considerably less than frags (I want to say 75% of frags damage). Heavy attacks can hit for upwards of 11k.

thankyourat · February 2017

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

Waffennacht · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

This I do agree with, but let's look at OP's situation.

A group of 5 or more, minimum 5 sorcerers all targeted one player and all simultaneously cast a single target spell in which OP is not running nor may not have an accessible counter.

The key part being 5 players simultaneously targeted and attacked a single player and OP's response is "that move is OP!" I can't say that's evidence of anything other than "how it should be."

The idea that a single player can reliably and easily counter 5 separate players that simultaneously attack him seems way more OP than the other way around.

FriedEggSandwich · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

What frustrates me is that nobody wanted to have this conversation before the stupid haunting curse change. Curse was made unblockable around the SotH patch, or 1T I can't remember. Not long ago anyway, and people were like "meh, I guess that makes sense cos it's too easy to mitigate the damage from this skill you have to wait for". Then zos added a 2nd tick to it after 12s and now everyone is like "ermahgerd no counterplays!". I'm so annoyed by the haunting curse change, I want my old curse back that nobody complained about.

thankyourat · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

This I do agree with, but let's look at OP's situation.

A group of 5 or more, minimum 5 sorcerers all targeted one player and all simultaneously cast a single target spell in which OP is not running nor may not have an accessible counter.

The key part being 5 players simultaneously targeted and attacked a single player and OP's response is "that move is OP!" I can't say that's evidence of anything other than "how it should be."

The idea that a single player can reliably and easily counter 5 separate players that simultaneously attack him seems way more OP than the other way around.

Yes if you get attacked by 5 players who have optimized builds and good CP it doesn't matter what class you are playing or what class they are playing you are going to die. I completely agree

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

What frustrates me is that nobody wanted to have this conversation before the stupid haunting curse change. Curse was made unblockable around the SotH patch, or 1T I can't remember. Not long ago anyway, and people were like "meh, I guess that makes sense cos it's too easy to mitigate the damage from this skill you have to wait for". Then zos added a 2nd tick to it after 12s and now everyone is like "ermahgerd no counterplays!". I'm so annoyed by the haunting curse change, I want my old curse back that nobody complained about.

I think sorcs are just the hot topic now it's been more and more mag sorcs showing up over the last month or so, so maybe people are finally starting to notice. Or maybe since it explodes twice nightblades are mad because they get pulled from cloak twice? I guess I can see how that could be annoying if I'm running away and a curse blows up 12 seconds later and gets me zerged down. But overall I agree it doesn't seem any better now than it did before the change in my sorc I'll probably still cast it as soon as it blows up anyway so it doesn't even seem likely it's even really a change. I guess I'll have to wait until I can test it since I play console

STEVIL · February 2017

Koolio wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Five folks just cursed me so i will take 8kx5 in 3.5s unblockable.

five folks just force pulsed me so i take 15x2k right friggin now - not dodgeable - and yeah every second between now and the 3.5.

i suspect you will hear the curse bangs from your recap screen which reads "force pulse ate you alive"

Hint: balance discussions of single abilities should not start at 5 vs 1.

I did read the patch notes where it said that it is no longer reflectable. Can you no longer dodge it either?

ooops no brain fart on my part.

not reflectable.

still dodgeable.

too many drugs in the sixites...

and seventies
and eighties
and... last week...
and this week...
and in like five mins

Brutusmax1mus · February 2017

Yes the main issue is shield stacking and purging are magicka only really. Stamina has essentially no chance at defense. 5 frags can be avoided with 1 dodge roll, at least there is counterplay for both magicka and stamina on that.

Glamdring · February 2017

I know you dont give a ***, but curse is totally broken after homestead, 3.5 secs burst and the second curse takes forever to hit. Sorcs spamming it left and right. I finally gave up after 1 year + trying to get my stam nb working outside ganking. Im out doing something else. GG on balancing the classes ZoS.

Anti_Virus · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I look at curse as one of those skills that's like Jesus beam. it's much more effective in outnumbered situations. I'm not saying it should be nerfed because it's needed 1v1, but you can't compare it to crystal frags or incap because it doesn't have counterplay. If I see 5 crystal frags coming at me I can dodge roll once or twice and not take any damage same with incap I could block or dodge them. You can't do anything to avoid the damage of curse which makes it ridiculously strong when fighting outnumbered because you can't counter it unless you run purge. It's been functioning like this for quite a while now I don't know why people are just now complaining

This I do agree with, but let's look at OP's situation.

A group of 5 or more, minimum 5 sorcerers all targeted one player and all simultaneously cast a single target spell in which OP is not running nor may not have an accessible counter.

The key part being 5 players simultaneously targeted and attacked a single player and OP's response is "that move is OP!" I can't say that's evidence of anything other than "how it should be."

The idea that a single player can reliably and easily counter 5 separate players that simultaneously attack him seems way more OP than the other way around.

But Isn't that what 1vXing is? I thought you all hate "mindless zerging"

KaiDynasty · February 2017

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

FriedEggSandwich · February 2017

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

How should it work then? Go back to curses overwriting each other? How do random sorcs co-ordinate their curses if this happens? The skill would be useless in open world; one sorc opens with a curse then the sorc next to him also opens with a curse and the timer gets reset to 0 etc. This introduces competition between friendlies; "I cursed them first, no I cursed them first" etc. It would be a mess. The skill needs to be stackable to be of any use in open world. I would rather it went back to being blockable than have it not stack. And I would rather the hauning curse change was reverted than have the skill be blockable again.

The way I see it the new 12s duration means it's more likely that you will have multiple curses on you at once. The most balanced fix would be to revert the skill back to 3.5s max imo.

thankyourat · February 2017

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

You know thought I don't think I've ever had more than two curses put on me at once. I recognize that maybe I've just been lucky. But in actual gameplay it doesn't seem to be that big of a issue. The potential is there but I just haven't noticed it really. Honestly if players are good enough to stack 4 curses that all go off at the same time a solo player didn't stand a chance even if the sorc didn't cast curse. I do see the potential and curse can be annoying when fighting outnumbered even if they aren't being stacked. Curse seems more like an annoyance than an actual problem though

KaiDynasty · February 2017

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

How should it work then? Go back to curses overwriting each other? How do random sorcs co-ordinate their curses if this happens? The skill would be useless in open world; one sorc opens with a curse then the sorc next to him also opens with a curse and the timer gets reset to 0 etc. This introduces competition between friendlies; "I cursed them first, no I cursed them first" etc. It would be a mess. The skill needs to be stackable to be of any use in open world. I would rather it went back to being blockable than have it not stack. And I would rather the hauning curse change was reverted than have the skill be blockable again.

The way I see it the new 12s duration means it's more likely that you will have multiple curses on you at once. The most balanced fix would be to revert the skill back to 3.5s max imo.

Overwritten no, ofc, this is why I ask there on the forum, i think i am not the only one that see this a a problem (curse stacking). Mabye it could just not refresh on each cast? Just a though, If someone already casted it, your curse won't overwrite it, but will fail, it's the first though I have btw.

FriedEggSandwich · February 2017

KaiDynasty wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

How should it work then? Go back to curses overwriting each other? How do random sorcs co-ordinate their curses if this happens? The skill would be useless in open world; one sorc opens with a curse then the sorc next to him also opens with a curse and the timer gets reset to 0 etc. This introduces competition between friendlies; "I cursed them first, no I cursed them first" etc. It would be a mess. The skill needs to be stackable to be of any use in open world. I would rather it went back to being blockable than have it not stack. And I would rather the hauning curse change was reverted than have the skill be blockable again.

The way I see it the new 12s duration means it's more likely that you will have multiple curses on you at once. The most balanced fix would be to revert the skill back to 3.5s max imo.

Overwritten no, ofc, this is why I ask there on the forum, i think i am not the only one that see this a a problem (curse stacking). Mabye it could just not refresh on each cast? Just a though, If someone already casted it, your curse won't overwrite it, but will fail, it's the first though I have btw.

That still sounds like a hefty nerf, especially with the duration now 12s long. That would mean your target was un-curseable for 12s while your ally's curse sat there ticking (or not ticking rather), which would be a pain if you wanted to use it every 3.5s instead. And this would impact pve in a bad way too; imagine only being able to have one curse active on a boss at any one time. Make it only affect players you say? This is zos we're talking about.

The 12s second duration is the real problem in pvp, I don't believe you'd be here complaining about it if it wasn't for the 12s duration. The best solution is to revert back to a 3.5s duration. Then the likelihood of multiple curses being on you at any one time would drop. I hear your complaint but I don't like your solution. Curse now pops twice, once at 3.5s and once at 12s, so there's 8.5s where it's doing absolutely nothing other than be a pain in the butt. The 12s duration has turned the skill into a troll mechanic and this is what we should be complaining about I believe.

Brutusmax1mus · February 2017

KaiDynasty wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

KaiDynasty wrote: »

Mabye I didn't explain well my thought. I think curse, stackable, is too much to mitigate because it isn't dodgiale and blockable, while fragments, as other players said, can be blocked or roll dodged, the skill it self (curse) is fine, the damage is good and is on the line of the balance, but since in a situation of more player it can't be avoided, here it is a problem.

How should it work then? Go back to curses overwriting each other? How do random sorcs co-ordinate their curses if this happens? The skill would be useless in open world; one sorc opens with a curse then the sorc next to him also opens with a curse and the timer gets reset to 0 etc. This introduces competition between friendlies; "I cursed them first, no I cursed them first" etc. It would be a mess. The skill needs to be stackable to be of any use in open world. I would rather it went back to being blockable than have it not stack. And I would rather the hauning curse change was reverted than have the skill be blockable again.

The way I see it the new 12s duration means it's more likely that you will have multiple curses on you at once. The most balanced fix would be to revert the skill back to 3.5s max imo.

Overwritten no, ofc, this is why I ask there on the forum, i think i am not the only one that see this a a problem (curse stacking). Mabye it could just not refresh on each cast? Just a though, If someone already casted it, your curse won't overwrite it, but will fail, it's the first though I have btw.

It sucks that stamina has no counter is all. And absolutely an out numbered scenario should be considered when balancing. this have has hundreds vs hundreds as part of it. It's not duels or small scale. Large scale battles are a massively important part of PvP.

We won't see this that often, and if they do they have to pick a stamina character bc magicka had plenty of counters with shields and purge. As it stands ALL STAMINA DD have zero counter play.

What's the fix? Who knows. Maybe making the first curse do a set amount of damage while the second can crit?

Lord-Otto · February 2017

In the meantime, Awesomesorc0815 is being shieldbreaker'ed to death by five stealthed Nightblades.
Just accept your mortality. This PvP is designed to be won by numbers. Dodgeroll has had it coming a long time ago. Next in line is healing.

Ocelot9x · February 2017

Lord-Otto wrote: »

In the meantime, Awesomesorc0815 is being shieldbreaker'ed to death by five stealthed Nightblades.
Just accept your mortality. This PvP is designed to be won by numbers. Dodgeroll has had it coming a long time ago. Next in line is healing.

Lovely zergling mentality. And no one is running shieldbreaker lol.
By the way,i fully understand zenimax way of thinking,they dont want the game be frustrating for newbies because no one loves to be 1vsx'ed so they gives them easy tools.