What if there were no classes? (shower thoughts)

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2017

Okay, obviously this will never be a thing but I'm bored lol.

Imagine if this game followed the same formula as other elder scrolls games. Now, the classes wouldn't disappear (in my imaginary patch lol). All the same skills and passives would be there except now everyone would have access to them. They would effectively be there own skill trees, open to everyone and any character from the start. Want surprise attack and talons? Level those two particular skills lines. How would passives work to keep it balanced so everyone isnt running around with full passives from every class tree? Make it so they would read "gain X passive with 1 shadow skill on weapon bar", "gain X passive with 2 or more shadow skils on weapon bar". The build diversity would be much larger and people would have to focus even more on passives to make their character the best it can be to synergize with there play style along with the skills they use. You would also be able to switch roles easier. Sure you would need different armor sets, but at least you wouldn't have to skill reset and/or be pigeon holed into JUST DPS or JUST healer or JUST tank. No more complaining about OP classes or skills because hey, you think sorc shields are OP? Go ahead, you can put sorc shields on your bar now, you're welcome. It would be like a sub job. Be a Dragon Sorc. How about a Blade of the Templar? What about Night Dragon? The possibilities would be endless. Since we already only have access to so many skills on our bar people wouldn't just have the same build because it's OP. How do I know this? Because every class has awesome skills and every class has absolute crap skills. Because the number of awesome skills in the game still vastly outnumbers the amount of skill slots on our bars everyone would be running something different.

So yeah. I'm bored and this is just a random shower thought I had.

AlMcFly · February 2017

It can be done. ZOS chose to restrict it in hopes that it will be easier to balance. Two+ years later, they still can't balance the game properly, even with restrictive classes.

There are a few games out there which experiment with a more "freeform/classless" system and sometimes do well in the implementation. The Secret World comes to mind.

Stopnaggin · February 2017

I honestly believe it's too late for that. Not to mention racial passives and gear sets being weighted for a perticular build. You could mix and match gear but you would never get all the perks for say a 5 piece set.

dday3six · February 2017

This comes up ever now and then...

What happens when the best build is discovered and the majority shifts to that and we have a several utterly underperforming builds that cannot complete?

Also does it ever occur that skills were designed with classes in mind and removing them means skills would need to be altered to maintain balance?

Tryxus · February 2017

Then we'd have a classless game, duh...

JWKe · February 2017

Switching specs will be very much more fluid however I feel that in exchange weapons will essentially be the new "classes" and each weapon has a meta build involved with accompanying skills attached.

Perhaps what might even happen is that perhaps one weapon pulls slightly ahead of the others in dps that it becomes the meta build for DPS. Knowing that it isn't possible to balance I feel that would be the case.

I guess the advantage of this system is that we don't have to reroll say if we decide to want to play another class. The downside being a more homogenous landscape.

I think with a system like that I feel it is a step toward a more equal playing field. However as we see with counter strike competitive some guns are almost never touched like the Negev and the 12 gauge and others are essentially the meta like the 47 and m4.

AdamBourke · February 2017

I would prefer it.

Elder scrolls is supposed to be about doing whatever you want. Oblivion had classes that improved various skills (or at least experience line those skills), but let you do anything you wanted.

I want that - and it wouldn't affect endgame meta too much, because you would still need to choose the class that has the bonus for the skills you need.

Well it might change it completely - but there would still BE an endgame meta...

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

AlMcFly wrote: »

It can be done. ZOS chose to restrict it in hopes that it will be easier to balance. Two+ years later, they still can't balance the game properly, even with restrictive classes.

There are a few games out there which experiment with a more "freeform/classless" system and sometimes do well in the implementation. The Secret World comes to mind.

Believe it or not, it still is easier to balance with restricted classes. Nobody said that making classes makes balance a trivial task, but it's certainly easier when you limit what ability combinations every single player can use.

ESO could have done well with a classless system, but they really would've had to build the game ground up with a classless system in mind. It would be a monumentally difficult task to change a game with class restrictions to a classless system without balance unraveling into a giant mess (Burning Embers + Haunting Curse + Frags + Sweeps + Jesus Beam, anyone?).

Elhanan · February 2017

Perhaps it's just nostalgia for classic Ultima Online, but I would love it.

I'm of the mindset that balancing classes is more challenging (than balancing classes) due to freedom to avoid particular weak skills/builds when the game is unbalanced. In class-based games you have much less options to choose from when particular aspects of the class are weak.

A good compromise is having a hybrid system that is partially based off class and non-class skills. You could say we have the currently, but here are far too few options to choose from. We need something akin to spellcrafting.

Royaji · February 2017

Yes, this is an Elder Scrolls game but at the same time it is an MMO or at least a multiplayer game. And classless systems are very tricky for MMO's. Why you ask? Crazy maths guys. Within a week all the numbers will be crunched down and The Build will be born. Ok maybe a couple of them, one for each role and one for PvP. The Build will be objectively better than anything you can imagine. Because the math will prove it.

After this all the multiplayer content will become very plain. PvP or PvE. You either play The Build or you always have a handicap. Simple as that. The Build will be wrecking everyone in PvP and PvE will only consist of The Build groups, since they will have the best DPS/tanking/healing. Everyone else will be kicked from the groups for not being good enough.

And the pros are... Happy solo only guys? Maybe they should just go play some single player RPG then? I heard they released a remastered Skyrim not so long ago...

Edited for typos

Chirru · February 2017

I vote for the OP's fantasy Idea.

Nerouyn · February 2017

AlMcFly wrote: »

There are a few games out there which experiment with a more "freeform/classless" system and sometimes do well in the implementation. The Secret World comes to mind.

Also Eve Online. One of the major success stories in the MMO industry.

Star Trek Online also is so far as space combat is concerned. There's a very small number of profession abilities but no restriction on what kind of ships each profession can fly or what bridge officer abilities they can use. So space is combat is 95% classless.

They seem to be moving towards classless ground combat too. End-game specialization classes are open to all of the base classes and there are lots of cross-class kit modules. The most recent update introduced kits which allow each class to use a few of the other class's abilities.

Tapio75 · February 2017

If there were no classes, all current classes would be available to one character.

I would love the game even more and since nobody asked, balance be damned

subtlezeroub17_ESO · February 2017

Then every at least semi competitive player would run the same skills. Period.

If you think now is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · February 2017

I've played a bunch of MMO's before and they all had classes as well. Same balancing issues. Who knows if anyway would work. I believe it just comes down to the games creators. Sometimes they hit the nail on the head. Sometimes not. Honestly I think they did a great job with ESO. Balancing will always be an issue when group A complains about skill C and group B complains about skill D.

One of the MMO's I played was FFXIV. The game was boring after awhile and repetitive. PvP was 1000x worse than ESO. But I did like how the classes worked. You didn't exactly have access to all classes at the same time, but could change at literally any point in time and also have subclasses using other classes you have leveled up. That was pretty cool at least. Not sure how the game is doing now and how well it worked out in the end lol.

Gilvoth · February 2017

if there were no classes i would love it sooo much.

uriangelub17_ESO · February 2017

I'm not sure if they have it, but I'd love to see a way to change specs without too much issue.
Like healer, dps or tank

danno8 · February 2017

Don't stop dreaming OP. Never stop.

Derzelas · February 2017

I think the idea would be if they were to remove the class system that the restriction would still be there. For example perhaps what could happen would be that everyone gets to choose 3 class skill lines when you start a new character or have an existing character. Once those 3 skill lines are chosen (for example, Restoring Light, Ardent Flame and Daedric Summoning), those formed your class (perhaps even name your class) and you start from there. If all skill lines were available that would be awesome but when I think of all the characters that people have made it wouldn't be viable. Perhaps that's also the reason why they refuse to add change class tokens but just putting the idea out there I suppose.

Wifeaggro13 · February 2017

Why you don't even need a class to do 85 %of the content you can just light attack. All it would turn I to is everyone using the same meta skills anyway . No I actually prefer more team play and less I'm a super special powerful buttercup that can do it all in my wedding dress from the cash shop.

Juhasow · February 2017

If everyone have acces to same things build diversity doesnt increasing but decreasing because everyone chooses the strongest combinations. If that ,,Dragon Sorc " thing would be insanely strong 2/3 population would run it and new players asking ,,what build should i make ?" would recive answer ,,make Dragon Sorc man !". Making restrictions like classes allows to keep people away from following the same paths over and over again.

ColoursYouHave · February 2017

I'm just glad I'm not the only person that thinks about ESO in the shower...

MythicEmperor · February 2017

No. I used to agree with this, but there are a few key factors to be taken into consideration:

1. Theory crafters. It would only be a matter of weeks until the best possible skill combination(s) for each role was/were discovered. After that, gl with your esoteric but still mildly effective and fun build. No vet trials for you; you wouldn't be allowed in because your 'skills aren't right'.

2. Branching from #1, each class has its own strengths and weaknesses. There is always that one skill tree that is nearly useless for your build. Guess what? There wouldn't be with no classes. None would ever pick the ugly ducking skill tree, breaking the game balance-wise. What's worse? Say you liked the skill tree. Say, for whatever jovial reason, there was a skill or two you found fun. You can ge away with using it, as maybe you had a flex spot. It could be obsolete in combat (Strife vs Force Pulse for DPS w/ a staff comes to mind), but maybe you liked its unique and cool flair.

In a classless ESO, if you ever wanted to do end-game content, you would be pidgeonholed away from this. None will accept you in their v trial group because you want to run x or y; no, you need to run z. Z will give you 5% more DPS. A classless ESO would be the furthest thing from freedom. Instead of taking a class's strengths and weaknesses, you only take the former. There would always be a "best" build, built upon the strengths of each class. Instead of having 24 metas (DPS, healer, and tank for each class, PVE and PVP), there would only be 6. Does this sound like freedom?

Anyways, I apologize for any typos; I am on my phone.

Majic · February 2017

dday3six wrote: »

What happens when the best build is discovered and the majority shifts to that and we have a several utterly underperforming builds that cannot complete?

What happens is you have exactly the situation we have now.

The myth is that classes somehow instill balance by trapping players within arbitrary constraints.

The reality is that they don't.

MythicEmperor · February 2017

Majic wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

What happens when the best build is discovered and the majority shifts to that and we have a several utterly underperforming builds that cannot complete?

What happens is you have exactly the situation we have now.

The myth is that classes somehow instill balance by trapping players within arbitrary constraints.

The reality is that they don't.

At least now, we have 4 "best builds" per role.

dday3six · February 2017

.

Majic wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

What happens when the best build is discovered and the majority shifts to that and we have a several utterly underperforming builds that cannot complete?

What happens is you have exactly the situation we have now.

The myth is that classes somehow instill balance by trapping players within arbitrary constraints.

The reality is that they don't.

Limits create balance, and limiting builds by forcing them to have strengths and weaknesses is the point of classes.

And the reality is points need to be addressed beyond "nu-uh" to inculcate credibility.

STEVIL · February 2017

"The build diversity would be much larger..."

One should never ever mistake the possible number of combinations that can be made with actual diversity that could be seen after "intelligent selection" is applied.

if i walk into your kitchen and add manure from 72 different species to your pantry, then technically the number of potential combinations of ingredients has improved for your supper tonight, but odds are the actual diversity in your eating habits will not change much - except maybe eating out more until the additions are removed.

in addition, once you break balance down to "by skill line" with passives being more generic, you wind up with less variety in those skill lines after the necessary re-balance. More sameness does not lead to more diversity.

The smaller the "packages" or "building blocks" you can combine to make your "build" the fewer the options for variety you have in them.

nimander99 · February 2017

Ive always thought having the ability to create a 'Custom Class' would be sweet, allow us to pick 3 Skill lines from the 4 available classes and give it a custom name. That would be right in line with the single player games and would be a very cool and unique system.

Publius_Scipio · February 2017

Be a good sport old chap, and pass the soap would you.

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TheShadowScout · February 2017

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

What if there were no classes?

Every PvPlayer would have the same "super-effective" setup and everyone joining a PUG without that setup would be kicked for not being "super-effective" enough... The game would end up feeling like Attack of the Clones or something like that... and people would consider it boring and scamper off to find something more interesting.

The thing is, a classless system can work, even in an fantasy game - provided its set up like that from the beginning, and includes -some- choices along the way.
But for ESO, that ship sailed and sunk a looooong time ago.

So there's little use in talking about it at this point...

Now, if we were to discuss plans for, say, a Fallout MMO which at some point someone may someday want to do... but this is the place for ESO diuscussions, so...

dsalter · February 2017

dday3six wrote: »

This comes up ever now and then...

What happens when the best build is discovered and the majority shifts to that and we have a several utterly underperforming builds that cannot complete?

Also does it ever occur that skills were designed with classes in mind and removing them means skills would need to be altered to maintain balance?

so... the same as usual but instead of it being "go stam this or magicka that" it becomes "slot this this and this or this that and that"