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ESO's Age of Penetration (Homestead & Forward)
Ch4mpTW
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At what point now is too much penetration or too little penetration with the Homestead update? This is in regards to: Spell penetration, physical penetration, Noxious Breath, Elemental Drain, champion points, sharpened weapons, etc. When is it enough?
For example, it's to the point now that on StamDK's it's being rumored that Maelstrom DW is no longer the best-in-slot for end-game content or Maelstrom. As NMG or something like Twice-Fanged Snake outclasses it. This applying as well for PvP (speculation). As more and more people are aiming to get that penetration to melt other players. It's pretty much at an all time high, as anything other than sharpened is a DPS lost.
This is especially being with the bug in place that is causing monsters to do more damage, and take more damage. Essentially making things hard mode everywhere. So what is the "magic number" for penetration to be reached on magicka builds and stamina builds for end-game PvE content (solo'ing, dungeons, trials, VDSA/VMA) and PvP content?
Edited by Ch4mpTW on February 12, 2017 9:03AM For example, it's to the point now that on StamDK's it's being rumored that Maelstrom DW is no longer the best-in-slot for end-game content or Maelstrom. As NMG or something like Twice-Fanged Snake outclasses it. This applying as well for PvP (speculation). As more and more people are aiming to get that penetration to melt other players. It's pretty much at an all time high, as anything other than sharpened is a DPS lost.
This is especially being with the bug in place that is causing monsters to do more damage, and take more damage. Essentially making things hard mode everywhere. So what is the "magic number" for penetration to be reached on magicka builds and stamina builds for end-game PvE content (solo'ing, dungeons, trials, VDSA/VMA) and PvP content?
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OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭I haven't noticed monsters hitting harder, I can still solo vet dungeons just fine. I hear alot of people saying this but I have yet to experience it.
As for the penetration thing, that has always been the go to since we live in a heavy armor or bust world now...well for a while now I should say0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is not clear what you are attempting to discuss. The ability for a group to use various debuffs to reduce the targets resistance or about the reports from players that NPCs are possibly doing more damage?
For the former, Zos is looking into it.
With the latter, little or anything changed with homestead concerning penetration that I am aware of so all is good.I haven't noticed monsters hitting harder, I can still solo vet dungeons just fine. I hear alot of people saying this but I have yet to experience it.
As for the penetration thing, that has always been the go to since we live in a heavy armor or bust world now...well for a while now I should say
Oh yes, with PvP it is important to be able to reach good penatration with the heavy armor builds being so popular.
As for how much, there is a point that it becomes more advantageous to stack something else. Heck, precise will outperform sharpened at a point. If anyone wants numbers they can do the simple math. It has been mentioned in the forums enough times.Edited by idk on February 12, 2017 9:24AM0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I haven't noticed monsters hitting harder, I can still solo vet dungeons just fine. I hear alot of people saying this but I have yet to experience it.
As for the penetration thing, that has always been the go to since we live in a heavy armor or bust world now...well for a while now I should say
@OGLezard So in your opinion, how much penetration is required nowadays as a standard or benchmark per say? 9k? 15k? 18k? Like what is the point where you say, "Okay, this is far too much penetration. As at this point it's not having an effect on mobs and bosses." Or something along the lines of, "Okay, I'm killing players way too easily now. I can back off the penetration a bit, and ease into increasing resource stability or raw damage output."0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭At what point now is too much penetration or too little penetration with the Homestead update? This is in regards to: Spell penetration, physical penetration, Noxious Breath, Elemental Drain, champion points, sharpened weapons, etc. When is it enough?
For example, it's to the point now that on StamDK's it's being rumored that Maelstrom DW is no longer the best-in-slot for end-game content or Maelstrom. As NMG or something like Twice-Fanged Snake outclasses it. This applying as well for PvP (speculation). As more and more people are aiming to get that penetration to melt other players. It's pretty much at an all time high, as anything other than sharpened is a DPS lost.
This is especially being with the bug in place that is causing monsters to do more damage, and take more damage. Essentially making things hard mode everywhere. So what is the "magic number" for penetration to be reached on magicka builds and stamina builds for end-game PvE content (solo'ing, dungeons, trials, VDSA/VMA) and PvP content?
You would use NMG or twice fanged in conjunction with not over VMA weapons. So VMA twice fanged vicious/alkosh 3 piece an kraghs/veli3 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The problem is the complete lack of diversity. From a trait perspective, every other trait could be removed and almost no one would notice except for maybe defending and precise, which in PvP are strictly back bar traits.5 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »It is not clear what you are attempting to discuss. The ability for a group to use various debuffs to reduce the targets resistance or about the reports from players that NPCs are possibly doing more damage?
For the former, Zos is looking into it.
With the latter, little or anything changed with homestead concerning penetration that I am aware of so all is good.I haven't noticed monsters hitting harder, I can still solo vet dungeons just fine. I hear alot of people saying this but I have yet to experience it.
As for the penetration thing, that has always been the go to since we live in a heavy armor or bust world now...well for a while now I should say
Oh yes, with PvP it is important to be able to reach good penatration with the heavy armor builds being so popular.
As for how much, there is a point that it becomes more advantageous to stack something else. Heck, precise will outperform sharpened at a point. If anyone wants numbers they can do the simple math. It has been mentioned in the forums enough times.
It's been discussed, and sure we can crunch numbers. But those numbers were never actually revealed (in regards to a benchmark). This is because of the fluctuations in whether or not a person is: PvP'ing, solo'ing WB's or dungeons, doing VMA, doing dungeons with other players, VDSA, trials, etc. There was never an actual number listed to be strived for (to my knowledge), where as if you cross over it things become pointless and you're "overpenetrating". I remember it being briefly mentioned in the past, when resistances weren't as high on enemy NPC's and heavy armor builds weren't so popular in PvP, but now all that data is old.cpuScientist wrote: »At what point now is too much penetration or too little penetration with the Homestead update? This is in regards to: Spell penetration, physical penetration, Noxious Breath, Elemental Drain, champion points, sharpened weapons, etc. When is it enough?
For example, it's to the point now that on StamDK's it's being rumored that Maelstrom DW is no longer the best-in-slot for end-game content or Maelstrom. As NMG or something like Twice-Fanged Snake outclasses it. This applying as well for PvP (speculation). As more and more people are aiming to get that penetration to melt other players. It's pretty much at an all time high, as anything other than sharpened is a DPS lost.
This is especially being with the bug in place that is causing monsters to do more damage, and take more damage. Essentially making things hard mode everywhere. So what is the "magic number" for penetration to be reached on magicka builds and stamina builds for end-game PvE content (solo'ing, dungeons, trials, VDSA/VMA) and PvP content?
You would use NMG or twice fanged in conjunction with not over VMA weapons. So VMA twice fanged vicious/alkosh 3 piece an kraghs/veli
@cpuScientist Okay, so what you're saying is like for a stamina build you'd go with: 5pcs. NMG/Twice-Fanged (I'm assuming body pieces), Maelstrom DW/Bow, Vicious Serpent/Alkosh 3pcs. (for the Minor Slayer benefits), and Kra'gh/Velidreth 2pcs. for the monster weapon damage/increased penetration (head and shoulders).
Wouldn't you burn out of resources attempting that, as my guess is that you'd have around 750-820ish stamina regeneration? This being that you're forgoing the use of 5pcs. Vicious, which made sustain not an issue from the amount of stamina you received from its proc. Even if you're running potions off cooldowns, you'd still have to be cautious with spending your resources correct? This isn't even including being forced to dodge roll, block, etc.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Used to be 18k penetration was max needed for PvE.
For PvP, 15k negates light and medium armor. You could then choose to specialize against armor (more pen), shields (more damage) or hp (more crit).
I don't see how anything could have changed.1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Used to be 18k penetration was max needed for PvE.
For PvP, 15k negates light and medium armor. You could then choose to specialize against armor (more pen), shields (more damage) or hp (more crit).
I don't see how anything could have changed.
A lot changed. Especially with 1T. Lol. Everything got more resistances, bosses (world bosses, dungeon bosses, and trial bosses) got tweaked to have more HP, resistances, do more damage, etc. Dungeon/trial mobs began to have more resistances to attacks (e.g. DLC content enemy NPC's), etc. As old as VWGT is, the adds there still have pretty wicked resistances. Same with VICP. VRoM and VCoS with Shadows of the Hist introduced even more resistances to things, and thus making penetration even more sought after (this was prior to 1T's launch by the way). And with 1T things were "scaled-up" (basically made to be bullet sponges).0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeVideo talks about when you should start using other stuff.
https://youtu.be/40xeSbftAYc Edited by Alcast on February 12, 2017 10:43AMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »It is not clear what you are attempting to discuss. The ability for a group to use various debuffs to reduce the targets resistance or about the reports from players that NPCs are possibly doing more damage?
For the former, Zos is looking into it.
With the latter, little or anything changed with homestead concerning penetration that I am aware of so all is good.I haven't noticed monsters hitting harder, I can still solo vet dungeons just fine. I hear alot of people saying this but I have yet to experience it.
As for the penetration thing, that has always been the go to since we live in a heavy armor or bust world now...well for a while now I should say
Oh yes, with PvP it is important to be able to reach good penatration with the heavy armor builds being so popular.
As for how much, there is a point that it becomes more advantageous to stack something else. Heck, precise will outperform sharpened at a point. If anyone wants numbers they can do the simple math. It has been mentioned in the forums enough times.
It's been discussed, and sure we can crunch numbers. But those numbers were never actually revealed (in regards to a benchmark). This is because of the fluctuations in whether or not a person is: PvP'ing, solo'ing WB's or dungeons, doing VMA, doing dungeons with other players, VDSA, trials, etc. There was never an actual number listed to be strived for (to my knowledge), where as if you cross over it things become pointless and you're "overpenetrating". I remember it being briefly mentioned in the past, when resistances weren't as high on enemy NPC's and heavy armor builds weren't so popular in PvP, but now all that data is old.cpuScientist wrote: »At what point now is too much penetration or too little penetration with the Homestead update? This is in regards to: Spell penetration, physical penetration, Noxious Breath, Elemental Drain, champion points, sharpened weapons, etc. When is it enough?
For example, it's to the point now that on StamDK's it's being rumored that Maelstrom DW is no longer the best-in-slot for end-game content or Maelstrom. As NMG or something like Twice-Fanged Snake outclasses it. This applying as well for PvP (speculation). As more and more people are aiming to get that penetration to melt other players. It's pretty much at an all time high, as anything other than sharpened is a DPS lost.
This is especially being with the bug in place that is causing monsters to do more damage, and take more damage. Essentially making things hard mode everywhere. So what is the "magic number" for penetration to be reached on magicka builds and stamina builds for end-game PvE content (solo'ing, dungeons, trials, VDSA/VMA) and PvP content?
You would use NMG or twice fanged in conjunction with not over VMA weapons. So VMA twice fanged vicious/alkosh 3 piece an kraghs/veli
@cpuScientist Okay, so what you're saying is like for a stamina build you'd go with: 5pcs. NMG/Twice-Fanged (I'm assuming body pieces), Maelstrom DW/Bow, Vicious Serpent/Alkosh 3pcs. (for the Minor Slayer benefits), and Kra'gh/Velidreth 2pcs. for the monster weapon damage/increased penetration (head and shoulders).
Wouldn't you burn out of resources attempting that, as my guess is that you'd have around 750-820ish stamina regeneration? This being that you're forgoing the use of 5pcs. Vicious, which made sustain not an issue from the amount of stamina you received from its proc. Even if you're running potions off cooldowns, you'd still have to be cautious with spending your resources correct? This isn't even including being forced to dodge roll, block, etc.
No I always ran either NMG or if someone had it already I would use TBS in raids. Vicious is a nice set really helps but it's only really "needed" in VMA. Shards and ultimates were always more than enough on stamDK, stamBlades had siphoning and StamSorcs have good recovery passives and could use an emergency dark deal (rarely of ever needed), only StamPlar really benefitted from using vicious and even then healers could take care of you. And I ran an Orc khajiit and Imperials if you go redguard the sustain is even better. If you are having problems with sustain it could be a low CP issue or your healers don't support.Used to be 18k penetration was max needed for PvE.
For PvP, 15k negates light and medium armor. You could then choose to specialize against armor (more pen), shields (more damage) or hp (more crit).
I don't see how anything could have changed.
Resists are at ~18k. Stamina doesn't get any bonuses to penetration from medium armor like light armor gives so there was always one member of a group that had alot of stam DPS that would have to use NMG or Sunderflame or both if stam DPS were really plentiful. Then DPS would wear kraghs or veli if both own sets were present and that would get everyone where they needed to be penetration wise. So other stam DPS would get to use TBS.
This method is still fine if you run trial groups with many stam DPS. If not if there is only say 1 stam person then they need to do the penetration themselves, that's where twice fanged, spriggan and the like comes in.Edited by cpuScientist on February 12, 2017 12:00PM1 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamina really is a self sustaining set up. Most can sustain through very long fights with minimal to no support. Magicka is where sustain is bad ESPECIALLY this patch. Sorcs and MagDK are currently wholly dependant on support. They need orbs and magicksteal, and luminous if you got it is always welcomed lol. MagDK are just waiting for that ultimate counting it down staring at it the entire fight. And magSorcs are wishing they had something...
Ofcourse with a good group sustain is just not an issue, it's very doable, once the heals are throwing out orbs and magicksteal.
On stamina it's aight take a shard now and then. Drink pots on cooldown. And you're honestly fine. Assuming high to max CP ofcourse.4 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cpuScientist wrote: »Stamina really is a self sustaining set up. Most can sustain through very long fights with minimal to no support. Magicka is where sustain is bad ESPECIALLY this patch. Sorcs and MagDK are currently wholly dependant on support. They need orbs and magicksteal, and luminous if you got it is always welcomed lol. MagDK are just waiting for that ultimate counting it down staring at it the entire fight. And magSorcs are wishing they had something...
Ofcourse with a good group sustain is just not an issue, it's very doable, once the heals are throwing out orbs and magicksteal.
On stamina it's aight take a shard now and then. Drink pots on cooldown. And you're honestly fine. Assuming high to max CP ofcourse.
@cpuScientist I meant in a solo-based environment more so, as you said you just grab a shard or something of the like. Plus those juicy Repentance casts also make sustain not so much of an issue when playing with others, but solo you feel it so much more (in my opinion) than magicka. As if you're solo'ing with magicka, Elemental Drain alongside restoration staff heavy attacks make sustain far more easier (in my opinion). Throw in a Maelstrom's Restoration Staff, and things get even more so easier to sustain. Where as with stamina, ehhhh not so much. Lol.Edited by Ch4mpTW on February 12, 2017 1:02PM0 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »The problem is the complete lack of diversity. From a trait perspective, every other trait could be removed and almost no one would notice except for maybe defending and precise, which in PvP are strictly back bar traits.
I like my infused staves and maybe charged too.Now try to remove training staves they might be a real riot.0 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭At the moment "Physical" penitration seems broken and does not add to outgoing damage, likewise "Physical" resistance seems to be broken aswell so we are getting hit harder too.
Magic based anything is buffed and doing great now since this new patch dropped. So we can assume a few months before this gets fixed and everyone will be playing magic tools by then.1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »The problem is the complete lack of diversity. From a trait perspective, every other trait could be removed and almost no one would notice except for maybe defending and precise, which in PvP are strictly back bar traits.
I like my infused staves and maybe charged too.Now try to remove training staves they might be a real riot.
@Tasear But how in a practical situation could charged ever be useful? Like I can see infused being somewhat useful, as I used to use an infused Maelstrom's Ice Staff for quite some time (until I got my sharpened Moondancer Lightning Staff). And I had decent results with it. But charged always seemed... Well... Useless. I can't see any benefits or pros of using it, that would outweigh the cons. And it's like that with a lot of traits.0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Too much is going beyond 0 res on the mob in question. Alone that cannot be done, so in most cases more arpen solo is better. Alcast video sums it up nicely about group play.
Also not using DW Maelstrom Weapons on Stam DK is not just about arpen, it's about the whole package. More CP means more CHD, so CHC becomes a more impactful and it trickles down from there. Then note that Maelstrom DW add to sustained DPS more than anything so if mobs aren't surviving through a full rotation/full dot some of the benefit is lost. That, in part, is why the fell out of favor for use in Maelstrom because the mobs don't often live long enough.1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »The problem is the complete lack of diversity. From a trait perspective, every other trait could be removed and almost no one would notice except for maybe defending and precise, which in PvP are strictly back bar traits.
I like my infused staves and maybe charged too.Now try to remove training staves they might be a real riot.
@Tasear But how in a practical situation could charged ever be useful? Like I can see infused being somewhat useful, as I used to use an infused Maelstrom's Ice Staff for quite some time (until I got my sharpened Moondancer Lightning Staff). And I had decent results with it. But charged always seemed... Well... Useless. I can't see any benefits or pros of using it, that would outweigh the cons. And it's like that with a lot of traits.
I did say maybe, but a charged staff my have more used then we think. I could see it helping with substain issues on a tank if absbord stamina comes more often or healer using spell erosion. So my answer is tank and healer could use these as for example using absorb maigika is overkill on a sorc Healer.Edited by Tasear on February 12, 2017 4:10PM0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Too much is going beyond 0 res on the mob in question. Alone that cannot be done, so in most cases more arpen solo is better. Alcast video sums it up nicely about group play.
Also not using DW Maelstrom Weapons on Stam DK is not just about arpen, it's about the whole package. More CP means more CHD, so CHC becomes a more impactful and it trickles down from there. Then note that Maelstrom DW add to sustained DPS more than anything so if mobs aren't surviving through a full rotation/full dot some of the benefit is lost. That, in part, is why the fell out of favor for use in Maelstrom because the mobs don't often live long enough.
So would you say that outside of dungeons and trials, Maelstrom Weapons are overkill? Being as most things won't survive that full rotation (save for like solo'ing a world boss or something of the like).0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Too much is going beyond 0 res on the mob in question. Alone that cannot be done, so in most cases more arpen solo is better. Alcast video sums it up nicely about group play.
Also not using DW Maelstrom Weapons on Stam DK is not just about arpen, it's about the whole package. More CP means more CHD, so CHC becomes a more impactful and it trickles down from there. Then note that Maelstrom DW add to sustained DPS more than anything so if mobs aren't surviving through a full rotation/full dot some of the benefit is lost. That, in part, is why the fell out of favor for use in Maelstrom because the mobs don't often live long enough.
So would you say that outside of dungeons and trials, Maelstrom Weapons are overkill? Being as most things won't survive that full rotation (save for like solo'ing a world boss or something of the like).
Yes, but most of that content is rather easy to begin with. Even in dungeons and trials it's debatable if they are the best post Homestead.
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Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Too much is going beyond 0 res on the mob in question. Alone that cannot be done, so in most cases more arpen solo is better. Alcast video sums it up nicely about group play.
Also not using DW Maelstrom Weapons on Stam DK is not just about arpen, it's about the whole package. More CP means more CHD, so CHC becomes a more impactful and it trickles down from there. Then note that Maelstrom DW add to sustained DPS more than anything so if mobs aren't surviving through a full rotation/full dot some of the benefit is lost. That, in part, is why the fell out of favor for use in Maelstrom because the mobs don't often live long enough.
So would you say that outside of dungeons and trials, Maelstrom Weapons are overkill? Being as most things won't survive that full rotation (save for like solo'ing a world boss or something of the like).
Yes, but most of that content is rather easy to begin with. Even in dungeons and trials it's debatable if they are the best post Homestead.
@dday3six Hm... You have me wondering now. If Maelstrom Weapons are so strong that they've reached a point where as they've become overkill for the vast majority of the content in the game, then where does Master Weapons fit in all this? Are they strictly reserved to PvP (except for maybe the Restoration Staff)? As in most cases it seems weapons from overland sets or crafted sets would be bitter suited to dealing with things. Are they useless outside of PvP (and even then some Maelstrom Weapons are better for PvP than Master Weapons such as the 2H).0 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭We drink to our youth, to the days come and gone, for the age of penetration has already comeWith cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner2 -
LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭edit: deleted so i don't get yelled atEdited by LadyLavina on February 12, 2017 5:22PMPC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer0 -
BlazingDynamo✭✭✭✭✭Just don't use set gear that gives penetration in trials. It's not needed as a dps.
In Maelstrom on the other hand it's better than a lot of other stuff.Edited by BlazingDynamo on February 12, 2017 5:41PM0 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭cpuScientist wrote: »Stamina really is a self sustaining set up. Most can sustain through very long fights with minimal to no support. Magicka is where sustain is bad ESPECIALLY this patch. Sorcs and MagDK are currently wholly dependant on support. They need orbs and magicksteal, and luminous if you got it is always welcomed lol. MagDK are just waiting for that ultimate counting it down staring at it the entire fight. And magSorcs are wishing they had something...
Ofcourse with a good group sustain is just not an issue, it's very doable, once the heals are throwing out orbs and magicksteal.
On stamina it's aight take a shard now and then. Drink pots on cooldown. And you're honestly fine. Assuming high to max CP ofcourse.
@cpuScientist I meant in a solo-based environment more so, as you said you just grab a shard or something of the like. Plus those juicy Repentance casts also make sustain not so much of an issue when playing with others, but solo you feel it so much more (in my opinion) than magicka. As if you're solo'ing with magicka, Elemental Drain alongside restoration staff heavy attacks make sustain far more easier (in my opinion). Throw in a Maelstrom's Restoration Staff, and things get even more so easier to sustain. Where as with stamina, ehhhh not so much. Lol.
Solo as in VMA as that's really the only solo content that you would specifically build for. The VMA daggers were never good there as the bosses have to low health for the VMA daggers combo to come into play. It's always been NMG SPRIGGAN with Vicious ophidian. With veli helmet. That's just due to the low health mobs and bosses.
And PvP the daggers don't really get much use as they are a sustained DPS tool. And PvP is about burst. (Some builds utilize it though) but yeah for anything where burst is not the goal the daggers are BIS. This has always been the case.0
