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Why can't ZOS simply throw more servers to the cluster to handle the load?
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »Let's also not forget about poorly optimized client side code either and flat out bugs like memory leaks.
After all this time you would think game devs could take advantage of multicore processing client side as well.
Servers are an issue but it takes two to tango.
When ESO was coded multicore gaming was still very much in its infancy.
But multicore computing was not, also the 64 bit client got a workover.
I can't get away coding old school in my industry, no excuse for game development.0 -
ZOS probably made a cluster with 16 servers like dell T330 or hp ML310 (1 proc, 8 gb ram each) and called a MEGASERVER0
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cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »Let's also not forget about poorly optimized client side code either and flat out bugs like memory leaks.
After all this time you would think game devs could take advantage of multicore processing client side as well.
Servers are an issue but it takes two to tango.
When ESO was coded multicore gaming was still very much in its infancy.
But multicore computing was not, also the 64 bit client got a workover.
I can't get away coding old school in my industry, no excuse for game development.
I won't really disagree...but when you license an engine...0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.Edited by Xundiin on February 11, 2017 2:09AM#SavePlayer10 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.Edited by cjthibs on February 11, 2017 2:13AM1 -
dbgager✭✭✭Well if they have a super megaserver that is 16 servers linked together. All that hardware. There is a lot that can go wrong. More hardware is very nice for performance and handling more simutaneous connections and bandwith. But it also leaves more failure points. And it also makes maintaining and fixing it when there is a problem much more difficult.1
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a big difference between software and hardware engineering.
It does help to have some knowledge of both however.
In this specialized world it is harder to find people that do have good knowledge of both.0 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I read somewhere on here that the super-server is something like 16 servers linked together in Texas. ZOS says the lag is caused by more stuff occurring at once (computing proc sets with abilities and mitigation, etc.) but has never addressed the hardware side of things. I doubt they have upgraded/added to their servers since launch and instead they waste money on silly contests. That "million" they gave away to a guy who probably no longer plays couldve been invested in servers (50k a year could've added several servers), instead their marketing folks thought otherwise.
You obviously dont know how businesses operate. Or youd have never posted such an idiotic comment.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax3 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.#SavePlayer10 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This outage isn't about lag. Something has gone wrong.
If my computer crashed, I don't go out and add a second computer.1 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
No. Apparently, you've either missed or chosen to ignore every point that I've made.
Actual skill doesn't come from 'passion' and enjoyment. It comes from actually doing the work. You need real experience and the knowledge that is gained from that.0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »Whichever may the most proficient, it seems that ZOS has neither degree-holding nor autodidactic experts working on server performance. It's all cats. (Just kidding! I can say for sure that at least @ZOS_ChipHilseberg knows what he's doing and does a great job communicating dev stuff with us over at ESOUI.)
Upper echelon is ZOS problem.
The thing with networking and servers is how to get the most out of the ecosystem with the least amount of money. They will throw money at superbowl ads, but not hardware.
0 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're very good at it. I think you're talking out of your ass. I, however, have a passion for female reproductive systems and am therefore more knowledgeable than any gynecologist.
I've known practicing gynecologist that couldn't find the on switch.Edited by Callous2208 on February 11, 2017 2:34AM3 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is unmitigated horse crap. the lag is due to a combination of network transport latency and server processing lag not game design. What needs to be addressed are sever and network load balancing and it isn't as easy as it sounds, I know because before I retired I was a Consulting Engineer contracted to Digital Reality. We provided server systems for many online games.
Also if these Data centers are anywhere near North Dallas there is a very good chance they are on Century link which has the single worst infrastructure in the country, also those data centers won't be changing anytime soon, so the best we can hope for is a new contract with new data centers which brings its own stabbing your eye out with a fork issues.
If you people are going to ***, *** about the right things not something as idiotic as bad design.
Erm game design and the code do indeed have an effect on lag, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Never said it didn't sparky, but he framed the assertion as if it were the only issue. "The game lags because of bad game design." And how the flock would he even know?.....so clearly you lack reason and comprehension.
Edited by Balamoor on February 11, 2017 2:35AM0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Callous2208 wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're very good at it. I think you're talking out of your ass. I, however, have a passion for female reproductive systems and am therefore more knowledgeable than any gynecologist.
I've known practicing gynecologist that couldn't find the on switch.
Also, I've determined that due to my passion for fighter jets and somewhat tangential experience working near them that I am now a better fighter pilot than Chuck Yaeger.2 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're very good at it. I think you're talking out of your ass. I, however, have a passion for female reproductive systems and am therefore more knowledgeable than any gynecologist.
I've known practicing gynecologist that couldn't find the on switch.
Also, I've determined that due to my passion for fighter jets and somewhat tangential experience working near them that I am now a better fighter pilot than Chuck Yaeger.
I think I can feel your passion from here, and am inclined to believe you. Godspeed sir.1 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're very good at it. I think you're talking out of your ass. I, however, have a passion for female reproductive systems and am therefore more knowledgeable than any gynecologist.
I've known practicing gynecologist that couldn't find the on switch.
You must be a Proctologist. Only way to explain how you balance your ass on your shoulders.#SavePlayer10 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »Yeah Chuck's reflexes aren't what they used to be. lol
Well played sir. Well played. 0 -
jaye63✭✭✭✭Its about game design, no amount of extra servers is going to solve this problem because the way the game was designed, the calculations, and the amount of players interacting at one time unless you are suggesting that everyone gets their own personal sever like the days of ultima online where everyone had their turnkey.
This is unmitigated horse crap. the lag is due to a combination of network transport latency and server processing lag not game design. What needs to be addressed are sever and network load balancing and it isn't as easy as it sounds, I know because before I retired I was a Consulting Engineer contracted to Digital Reality. We provided server systems for many online games.
Also if these Data centers are anywhere near North Dallas there is a very good chance they are on Century link which has the single worst infrastructure in the country, also those data centers won't be changing anytime soon, so the best we can hope for is a new contract with new data centers which brings its own stabbing your eye out with a fork issues.
If you people are going to ***, *** about the right things not something as idiotic as bad design.
Seriously? You sound like some one who is still running a 286.
Instead of offhadedly dismissing something you cant know if it's true or not, consider the idea. While I agree that SOME of what you said is correct, that wouldnt explain the extreme lag that happens every evening. In reality, there are too many calls to the same resource. And in response to the person you responded to, it is doable. It just takes the will. Every programming issue CAN be solved and resolved. It just takes the want to do it. And as long as you keep spending money, they will get the idea you like their ideas. Money drops off with the reason that it's there lack of will to solve it, they WILL get the will to solve it. Whether it's hardware, software or network issues.
And FYI, I've been into programming since before there were hard drives. Dont dismiss some one's idea because you dont get it. Next time try... I dont think that's the issue or that may be so but I think it has more to do with. I programmed my own games on a commodore64 portable with a 3 inch screen and spent more time getting the coding right and trying to find my typos than actually playing. I coded several things for NWN1 private servers. Things change and when you dont change with them, problems occur.
My personal opinion? Your both almost right.1 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
I never said you could whine and be an expert. I said if you are passionate enough about something you can learn and be just as knowledgeable. There are many many people that learn Networking, Server structure, game design, ect. that never went to school. You don't need to build a car to understand how it works and fix it. Technology is, for the most part, the same way. There are tons of information available that one who wants to can learn and be just as capable of problem shooting a server problem has you can with your degree. The only thing you have over that said guy is it's easier for you to find a job doing it.
Never met any competent folks in IT that refer to that process as 'problem shooting.'
When I am interviewing most people pay attention to my military experience in the IT field and not-so-much my degree. I agree with that part. But you still need practical experience to understand these things and access to the infrastructure you're analyzing. For example, I'd never assume what ZOS's problems are because I haven't seen what they're working with.
The variables are simply too numerous to make assumptions.RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
...as one of those degree-holding IT professionals I will politely disagree.
You can politely disagree all you want. Fact out weighs your disagreement. There are people who work for Microsoft that work in IT who don't hold any licensing or degrees. And I'm not talking about CSR's.
Of course. That doesn't, however, prove that you can play video games and whine about servers until you're an expert.
You need to actually work with that type of technology. And large compute clusters are not something the average vidya gamer has access to.
Yup.my first IT job out of college was maintaining 160 severs in 16 branch offices across the United States. I was lucky I interned st a very large company for 8 months helping administer a server cluster 5 times that size to supplement my already good knowledge of technology, but it's not something a computer repair man is just going dive into and be an expert because he plays a game.
As I always say you can never have enough hardware resources. The more the better. It's just like bandwidth can never have enough. Sadly the accountants rarely let us over spec anymore.
Even I don't understand all of ZOS server infrastructure because I haven't had my hands on it. Every network setup has its own quirks and ways it works you learn over time. Then you learn ways to make it better etc(if accounts will approve funds)
As your saying their is far more to understanding this then just playing a game.
You guys are missing the point completely. You don't need to be an expert with 20+ years in to make an educated guess as to what could be the issue. yes you have to be able to dig through their mess to find exactly what it is. What I'm saying is someone with a passion for technology can learn just as much as you know without ever being in the filed of IT or holding a degree. You can still come up with educated guesses as to what might be the issue.
I've never taken a course on PC's. Yet I'm just as knowledgeable about it as someone that builds and fixes them every day. I'm also very knowledgeable about game design. I still have a lot to learn with the programing part, but I understand the basics. Never have I taken a course in school for it. So I will say it again... if you are passionate enough about the subject, you can be just as knowledgeable as someone who has a degree.
Also, on that note, I've also known some IT experts that couldn't find the on switch to a PC.
I've seen more educated guesses screw things up than not.
What you need is someone who has access to the system and skill in tracing logs and determining the real problem. Which can sometimes take months, or longer, depending the complexity of the system.
I didn't miss your point, I disagree with it.
And it's funny that your definition of expert is broad enough to include that bolded bit, but telling.
I consider anyone that works in the field of IT with a degree for it a so called expert. Just because you hold qualifications for it doesn't mean you are good at it. But apparently you think different. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't think you're very good at it. I think you're talking out of your ass. I, however, have a passion for female reproductive systems and am therefore more knowledgeable than any gynecologist.
I've known practicing gynecologist that couldn't find the on switch.
You must be a Proctologist. Only way to explain how you balance your ass on your shoulders.
Please don't project your inadequacies onto me and attack my passions with such venom. I'll not allow your misogynistic attempts to keep me down, derail my dreams from coming to fruition.1 -
Hurika✭✭✭✭Throwing more hardware at a problem isn't always the solution. That's like saying - "I want to tie my shoes faster so having a 1000 people doing it instead of just me should make it 1000 times faster". Threading requires handling concurrency and having a workload that can be threaded and scales. Your shoes would scale to 2 threads since each can be tied independently. Adding more workers won't help and in some cases slows things down due to context switching. Even sharing data between threads can be tricky, causes thread locks, race conditions and requires a lot of planning (forcing cores to refresh cache for volatile variables, etc).
You can try to divide a problem but some things must be done in a serial manner.
Another example of this is to think of a car assembly line. You have to install certain things before others and you can't make it parallel. You can't install floor mats until the floor is actually installed. They are serial. Sure you can add a 2nd assembly line and spit out cars twice as fast but that doesn't make 1 care take 1/2 as long.
If something has no impact on anything else and nothing else can impact it, then it's a good candidate for multithreading. How many opportunities for this defines how many threads are optimal. And that is a function of your overall software architecture.0 -
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DreadKnight✭✭✭✭Regardless of the Hardware/Software issues (of which there are obviously many) - I see it as a Management problem.
From the very start they should have had a scale up and scale down plan - depending on the popularity of the game.
It's a 'Fail to plan, Plan to fail' issue if you ask me.
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZOS has more money than CCP Games.
Zos can afford to get systems like this https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/
You won't ever see anything like that coming from zos. Look at that dev post from ccp, so much information of their server performance straight in your face. What is the point of having money if zos is not willing to spend it were it truly matters. No matter how much you paint this turd gold it is till a piece of turd in the inside.
Sadly this is true. CCP and Zenimax Media are different companies with different mind sets.
Sadly Zenimax is one of them "make more money" companies.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
ESOUser0x00✭✭✭ZOS has more money than CCP Games.
Zos can afford to get systems like this https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/tranquility-tech-3/
You won't ever see anything like that coming from zos. Look at that dev post from ccp, so much information of their server performance straight in your face. What is the point of having money if zos is not willing to spend it were it truly matters. No matter how much you paint this turd gold it is till a piece of turd in the inside.
Sadly this is true. CCP and Zenimax Media are different companies with different mind sets.
Sadly Zenimax is one of them "make more money" companies.
Even if that is the case, putting a little more hardware surely wouldn't cost that much money for a company of their size and stature.0 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gross net profit. And their internal servers work fine. It's in the line with the shameless bias of what they enjoy and play in the game and have no thought what so ever about the rest of the game/classes. I'm not sure, but I think this is a first, to this extent, in a game from a game developer.Edited by Idinuse on February 11, 2017 7:29AMSed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?1 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No dear, what you said was "This is unmitigated horse crap. the lag is due to a combination of network transport latency and server processing lag not game design. ", note "not game design", as opposed to say "in addition to game design" if you are going to be dishonest every time you get something wrong then try doing a better job in future.
And how the flock would he even know?.....so clearly you lack reason and comprehension.
On the same basis how would you even know that it is "not game design", that you go on about lack of reason of others is hilarious, try taking a look at yourself, then look up irony in the dictionary.
Edited by Sylosi on February 11, 2017 1:36PM0
