There's no such thing as "Balance for the Average Player"

wisej12 · February 2017

DenMoria wrote: »

ESO isn't about "Playing as you want", it's about maximizing the possibilities of the build that you have regardless of whether it is the way you "want" to play or not.

I agree with the TC on most of the points and that is the reason why the elites are as elite as they are.

As a casual PvE player, I know better than to involve myself in the PvP environment on a regular basis as I simply am not good enough, nor do I have the patience to build up my skills sufficiently to compete with the elite players.

While I can admire them from afar and take to heart so many of their techniques and head their advice, I readily admit that I will never live up to what they have been able to accomplish.

Honestly, I admire it. I don't know how they find the time and patience, but, regardless, I admire it.

I admire your humility

Dawnblade · February 2017

Practice makes perfect - of that I agree...but you are conveniently ignoring other issues that play into 'balance' as defined by a new player's experience and ability to compete, many of which are tied to the growing power gap.

A new player will not have CP, nor all gold BIS gear, maybe not even optimized gear, nor all weapon / class / guild / PVP lines unlocked.

Compare the power difference between a player with low CP, non-gold non-BIS gear, missing passives like undaunted mettle, missing skills from guild lines or assault with a player at max CP, all gold BIS gear set, and every class / weapon / guild / PVP line fully leveled.

It isn't even close - even if you somehow accounted for experience, the new player would be far behind the veteran.

Also if you have played since launch, your competition has been with people at or near the same experience level as you, with similar Vet levels / CP levels and gear.

So your experience is nothing like a new player walking in and trying to hold their own with / against people with a two year head start on everything from CP to gear, as well as experience.

To be able to compete, this game requires not only gaining experience and mastery through experience (repetition), but also requires completing lots of time sinks to grind CP, grind AP, grind skill lines / guilds, grind gear, most of which offer little real challenge.

It is those time sinks which drive a majority of the power gap, and are what make the game less and less friendly to new players, not a new player's lack of practice and experience to master what is very basic game play.

Elephant42 · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I suspect recent complaints about the state of class balance are from newer players, perhaps not aware of how much progress has already been made. It will never be perfect, but sweeping balance changes introduced with various patches over time have massively improved the PVP experience for good, average and even bad players.

During the first year after launch, the odds were rather severely stacked against anyone wearing medium or heavy armor, for example, and nightblades and stam sorcs had a particularly tough time. At this point, perhaps some classes are a bit stronger than others and perhaps it is a bit too easy to reach high damage potential in heavy armor, but at least you can finally make a reasonably viable character from any of the four classes, stamina or magicka and your choice of light, medium or heavy armor.

Sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far in one direction or another, but these developers clearly listen to feedback from everyone, not just elite players. I've seen quite a few improvements come directly from suggestions made on the forum by us lowly average players.

This has also been my experience. Any time someone complains that "ZOS doesn't listen", I'm thinking to myself, "uhhh they listen a LOT and they're usually very smart about their balance changes..."

Sav72 wrote: »

Average player?

When 8 people are beating on a MK DK and he killing them and he is not dieing, how do you call that balance?

PFT.....

The point of the post was that if you look at the top-performing players, all of the classes are pretty balanced. The reason you saw 8 players failing to kill a single player, is simply because none of those 8 players knew how to. If just one of those players was as experienced and skilled as that MK DK, you would've seen a very different situation unfold. Sure, the other 7 players might have still died, but you would've seen those two duke it out in an epic duel with no clear winner.

Opinions are like... well you know the rest. My opinion is that this IS the sign of a deeply broken game. No amount of skill/knowledge/experience/luck/karma/juju should allow 1 player to kill 8 who are ganging up on him or her.

1v2, 1v3 maybe, and at a pinch 1v4 if the 1 is the top 0.01% and the 4 are all average to mediocre but any more is just a fundamentally unbalanced game - IMHO.

Lokey0024 · February 2017

Lag is my nemesis.

JinMori · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

This is 100 % true, it's much easier to point the finger and judge then becoming a better player/person.

t3hdubzy · February 2017

OP has great points but as a pvp only player and pve only when necessary, i highly agree that a lot of content is just unobtainable for me because i refuse to grind a dungeon 1000 hrs to get gear. My build stays incomplete because I dont get the drops I want.

Also there are just flat out a few builds that are unkillable and can kill me in 2 or 3 moves when i have high resist high inpen and 20k health, so far from glass cannon. Against most players I stand a good chance, against a few players I am absolutely nothing to walk through.

These players openly wait to be attacked laugh when you cant, then counter and kill you instantly.

Ill admit i have a thing or 2 to learn, but ive been on ps4 since launch and play pvp all the time. I often solo and tend to be drawn to small groups. I intentionally seek out tough fights to test my skills, so i doubt this is always a l2p issue.

Not refuting the original post, a lot of it is true, but there are still some issues that players are exploiting because its the way the game is designed.

JinMori · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

I think you misunderstand some of the criticism.

There are two separate issues.

One is power creep and content design which is where the top 1% are catered to along side the Roleplayers, ignoring most people in the middle. A prime example of this is how you lock the best gear behind the hardest content, so the inevitable result is that the best players with the best builds unlock an even higher tier of performance resulting in their demand for even harder content. It's a negative feedback loop. They could already beat the hardest content without the better gear. Then you give them the better gear and it's even less of a challenge and the difference between average and top tier performance. The difference between average DPS and top DPS has increased by 200% in the last 18 months.

Two is balance between the classes which has nothing to do with balancing FOR average players. But it has a lot to do with listening TO average players. When you listen to a small number of people who have very specific and unique experience in-game, you don't draw on as much feedback as you should to make informed balancing decisions.

Let me give you an example.

Let's imagine I was the best ganker in the game. I had the most burst damage of any player, period. If you were to give undue influence to my feedback it would lead you to the conclusion that Destro Ult is not at all OP and very well balanced because most of the time when someone casts destro Ult, I simply focus them and burst them down - out DPSing their ult and removing the threat.

But I don't think that's an accurate representation of most PvP experience and it would be a shame if my feedback was given more emphasis than others just because I was so good at that previously described playstyle that I had some big "reputation".

No one is saying that desto ulti in not op, but it's op because it's not blockable, not because of the damage itself.
What you described there is not a good player, it's a biased player, most good players understand the game, and can tell what's op from what is not op.

QahnaarinDynar · February 2017

Strategy is the root of all success in just about anything one can think of in my view. I don't even agree with the people who were complaining about the proc sets. I mean, the only time I remember being killed by one was when a ganker hit me for very high poison damage, that I believe was the result of the viper sting set. I don't think that for experienced PvP'ers that the proc set nerf will even be noticeable, because all it takes is a little know how to overcome their "obstacles". Even the invincible tank builds could be overpowered with a proper strategy, the right skills slotted from a variety of classes and a good mix of poisons in the right hands. But most importantly well coordinated teamwork.

You've put it into terms that's far more reasonable than what I've said over the years to people ingame, and more recently on the forums since I've joined. Whenever my friends scream nerf this or nerf that, I get so furious with them and end up writing mini essays about why they're wrong and actually hurting the game.

It is understandable that there are sets which do indeed overperform, but in my view an experienced and skillful strategist is always going to be the winner at the end of the day. For all the times I've had my rear handed to me in Trueflame, I've grown stronger and more knowledgeable, which is why whenever someone tries to trash talk me after killing me - I usually thank them for teaching me a lesson.

And thank you for this post and taking the time to write it. I hope many newer players read this.

dvkkha · February 2017

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

I don't think the average player worries about balance tbh . The average player just plays , avoids the forums and gets upset when something gets nerfed in PVE . It is the people that live ESO that care about balance and its effect on every minute of their waking life online .

FriedEggSandwich · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Why is that insane? If you look at dota 2, LoL or CSGO the same is true there; if you want to compete at the highest level you need to have invested 1000s of hours. The difference with those games is that they have matchmaking. Your post tells me that there are lots of mechanics that you don't yet know of or understand. So, for me at least, your post kind of proves the point the op was trying to make.

Berenhir · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Not against "other players". Against players who invested that time themselves.

That's how EVERYTHING works EVERYWHERE on this planet. You get/stay good by keeping focused, constant training, a decent portion of knowledge and, what people tend to forget: talent.

That's what PVP is about, isnt it? Constant improvement. Like a martial arts fighter training every day of the week every week of the year every year of his life .

QahnaarinDynar · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

4k damage? That's incredibly low, even my friend who is new to the game and only recently got to level 45 can do about 20k damage with the right combination of abilities and assigning attribute points properly. My questions for you is this, what you running? What level are you, class and are you running a stam, magicka or hybrid build? How have you assigned your attribute points?

I can hit for 35 to 40k dps self buffed if I get my rotations and animation cancelling right, but getting there took a lot of effort and time (and I still suck at it). But even that is no guarantee that I'll survive an encounter with an opponent who really knows what they're doing. JediMindTriicks from DC in NA is streamer who destroyed me every single time in the 8 encounters I've had with him, but each time I didn't feel frustrated, only more determined to get better and very appreciative for the great experience of fighting him.

Your last sentence is the exact problem that the OP was trying to address. In my first days in PVP I struggled for weeks before I got my first kill, that was over a year and a half ago, that's because PvP in this game is truly complex. I saw that complexity as a challenge to overcome rather than another obstacle. My same friend who I mentioned earlier as a level 45 has killed several people at 561 rank before the patch hit, and he did it in a small group of 3 people and mostly by himself. I've been teaching him how to mag sorc, and that alone put him at a great advantage over a normal player who has to figure things out by themselves. Gear, level and all that stuff certainly does have an impact on your stats, it's vital in fact. But it's utterly meaningless if a character has all the best gear but doesn't possess the know-how to use them properly.

And why do you think that collecting gear is the only way to go? You can craft gear that's just as good, and if you can't do that then you can usually buy gear for reasonable prices from guild traders/other players. Or you could just go run some dungeons and get access to very good gear that was once very prohibitively rare to acquire.

Remag_Div · February 2017

The OP had a lot of words but it was a whole lotta nothing.

tl;dr : Time and practice improve your play.

Ya know, advice that is given for every possible thing you do in life. Great tips.

Most people are bad at PvP, or are not going to invest thousands of hours calculating min/max builds, thus the whining. It's in every competitive game ever, just have to deal with it. The bad games are the ones where the Devs listen to the whines and hurt the game.

Wollust · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Can you tell me a game where you can just go in for the first time and compete evenly against someone that has hundred, if not thousands hours of playtime?

I can tell you right now, even if you had capped CP, golden bis gear and whatever, you would have died just as fast against good players. Sure, you might have been able to do somewhat more damage, but you would still lack the knowledge that you can only acquire with time.

dvkkha · February 2017

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Why is that insane? If you look at dota 2, LoL or CSGO the same is true there; if you want to compete at the highest level you need to have invested 1000s of hours. The difference with those games is that they have matchmaking. Your post tells me that there are lots of mechanics that you don't yet know of or understand. So, for me at least, your post kind of proves the point the op was trying to make.

I did not try to debunk the op. I'm sure he is right. But is this pvp system a good one? I don't think so.
The difference between ESO pvp and CSGO is, and I know that because I tested it against a friend of mine who is into that game for years that our chances are even. My weapon makes the same damage as his. Yes, he beat me 48 times out of 50 but I never had the feeling that there is something fishy going on. I never had the feeling that I had absolutley no chance because I knew he was just faster than me because of skill.

In Cyrodill I don't got destroyed because the other player used his abilities at the right time. I got destroyed because they used some ancient knowledge wich is hidden in the depths of the internet or somewhere else. So everything I could possibly do in this fight was futile.
I'm not against optimizing your gear and build to some extend but there should always be boundaries that some guy (who was emperor) can't beat a zerg of ten people alone without a scratch. And I'm not kidding, that happend. We did 0 damage and got blown away by his AoE spells.

QahnaarinDynar wrote: »

4k damage? That's incredibly low, ....

Sorry, missed your post.
I was 50/80 or something like that. Stamblade with all attributes in stam. Used 2H to buff my damage and snipe with shadowy disguise. Just what I used in PvE to make 20k crits. But I can't remember what gear I had, nothing special.

Wollust wrote: »

Can you tell me a game where you can just go in for the first time and compete evenly against someone that has hundred, if not thousands hours of playtime?

I can tell you right now, even if you had capped CP, golden bis gear and whatever, you would have died just as fast against good players. Sure, you might have been able to do somewhat more damage, but you would still lack the knowledge that you can only acquire with time.

Even in other games I propably won't win. But I would have had a fair chance at all and sometimes I would even win.

FearlessOne_2014 · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

The bad part is right now starting out in the game is the worst experience ever for a new/average player in PvP. Sadly they will use the "balance and buff me" as a crutch.

Nope you guys are all wrong. It's not the fact that starting out is the worst experience. It's that despite outplaying a opponent and winning. ZOS turned the game into something where if you just grind PvE content, or got lucky with drops.

Instead of getting outplayed. You would have players stacking multiple proc sets. Then just instantly wiping players out, even those with impend. I remember the days before stam proc set stacking became a thing. PvP in Cyrodiil was beyond fun. I would dare to say second to none. I used to pull 3 to 6 hours and some days even more hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Voz3Fet2c

After the fact stam proc set stacking became a thing. The game far as PvP wise became very dry and boring. I the know the fact that people can just hit one button from stealth and just have 3 gear sets proc and just erase me in full impend. Made me completely redraw from PvP. And since GW2's WvW went through a even worst skill less power creep. Pretty much pushed me to PvP in MOBAs.

Since SotH DLC I think I have troubles logging in 3 hours/month in Cyrodiil since. A far cry from being active pulling about at least 3 hours of Cyrodiil a day. I think some of the other ESO and even MMO genre PvP streamers pretty much evacuated, the MMO pvp scene to PvP in games like MOBAs and Overwatch. Not because PvP was harder. But because PvP in MMORPGs across the boards just became a joke where either gear procs kill players, or expansion power creep.

I can't speak for others, however after seeing the devs of ESO views on the stam proc set stacking in Cyrodiil. I can honestly say until that view change that I more then likely will be hard press to spend time in Cyrodiil other then the fact to grind Alliance War skill lines. To more then likely not return on that character. The good ole days of meaningful PvP action is gone in ESO. But luckily there are games on the market who do profit off of good PvP. Making even harder to do anything other then PvE in ESO.

It had nothing to do with the fact players that I was less skilled then kicked my ass. It was more so dued to the fact that players who was less skilled that just spent more time in PvE was just giving a I Win Button in Cyrodiil in order to simply dumb down PvP in Cyrodiil for player who couldn't be bother to learn how to play the game.

g00gleyes · February 2017

only in a game where reflex is the only determining factor can balance be achieved, and the appearance of balance be seen.

balance doesn't exist in mmorpgs because its not supposed to. they are made around the basis of rock>scissors>paper>rock, or the class/profession counter system.

I think what we may see is an mmorpg attempt to be based mostly on reflex, with some traditional elements.

Cadbury · February 2017

While OP has some good points it's only half the story as it applies only to PvP.

You can use all the platitudes you want, but at the end of the day, someone is always better than you at something.

wisej12 · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

See, you're falling into the exact thought-trap that my thread is trying to address. You think gear is what truly matters. I'll tell you right now, I created a new character, went into the no-Champion-point PvP campaign wearing only crafted gear, and because of battle-levelling I was able to reach the top 10 in the leaderboards in 2 days flat, even though the campaign had been going for a week. I didn't have gear, I didn't have passives, buffs, or even all of my abilities. But because I knew exactly what the enemies were doing at every single moment, I made due with what I had and came out on top. Gear matters, but not nearly as much as you think. Keep practicing, and make an effort to learn your opponents. That's what it takes. Thousands of hours of learning and practicing, not thousands of hours grinding. If a game like that is unbalanced, then soccer is unbalanced FFS

wisej12 · February 2017

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

The bad part is right now starting out in the game is the worst experience ever for a new/average player in PvP. Sadly they will use the "balance and buff me" as a crutch.

Nope you guys are all wrong. It's not the fact that starting out is the worst experience. It's that despite outplaying a opponent and winning. ZOS turned the game into something where if you just grind PvE content, or got lucky with drops.

Instead of getting outplayed. You would have players stacking multiple proc sets. Then just instantly wiping players out, even those with impend. I remember the days before stam proc set stacking became a thing. PvP in Cyrodiil was beyond fun. I would dare to say second to none. I used to pull 3 to 6 hours and some days even more hours. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Voz3Fet2c

After the fact stam proc set stacking became a thing. The game far as PvP wise became very dry and boring. I the know the fact that people can just hit one button from stealth and just have 3 gear sets proc and just erase me in full impend. Made me completely redraw from PvP. And since GW2's WvW went through a even worst skill less power creep. Pretty much pushed me to PvP in MOBAs.

Since SotH DLC I think I have troubles logging in 3 hours/month in Cyrodiil since. A far cry from being active pulling about at least 3 hours of Cyrodiil a day. I think some of the other ESO and even MMO genre PvP streamers pretty much evacuated, the MMO pvp scene to PvP in games like MOBAs and Overwatch. Not because PvP was harder. But because PvP in MMORPGs across the boards just became a joke where either gear procs kill players, or expansion power creep.

I can't speak for others, however after seeing the devs of ESO views on the stam proc set stacking in Cyrodiil. I can honestly say until that view change that I more then likely will be hard press to spend time in Cyrodiil other then the fact to grind Alliance War skill lines. To more then likely not return on that character. The good ole days of meaningful PvP action is gone in ESO. But luckily there are games on the market who do profit off of good PvP. Making even harder to do anything other then PvE in ESO.

It had nothing to do with the fact players that I was less skilled then kicked my ass. It was more so dued to the fact that players who was less skilled that just spent more time in PvE was just giving a I Win Button in Cyrodiil in order to simply dumb down PvP in Cyrodiil for player who couldn't be bother to learn how to play the game.

Well you'll be happy to hear that on Monday proc sets were sevearly nerfed. You don't see them very much anymore, and when you do, it's probably an inexperienced player because proc sets are no longer the dominant strategy.

jaye63 · February 2017

You should have stopped with *There's no such thing as balance* because there isnt anywhere. Oh they try, but there is always one race or class that never gets any love. And then when it does, it's so OP that the master races/classes complain until it gets nerfed. I've never considered myself an elite player because of how long I spend learning the game by myself. I hate playing clones of the best toons. I like putting my finger on it myself. And I LOATHE playing with people who are always telling what to play, how to play it and what the best gear is. (FYI- there's the insight to why there's never balance) I often make the toons people say will never work actually work. AND I actually make them viable.

See... there's the challenge in the game. You get bored and say there's nothing to do because you want the easy button. It's not the Devs job to entertain you. It's YOUR job to entertain you. You want balance, make it. Make an Orc nightblade. Make a Khajiit 2 hander in heavy armor. Use the skills you never use. Find a niche in the impossible. There's your balance. Turn a gimp into a B** A**.

kevlarto_ESO · February 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't think the average player worries about balance tbh . The average player just plays , avoids the forums and gets upset when something gets nerfed in PVE . It is the people that live ESO that care about balance and its effect on every minute of their waking life online .

Agree, and there is no balance for anyone as long as zos lets cheaters run rampant and takes forever to fix broken exploitable game mechanics.

I once cared now I don't, I just play have fun and let the dookie chips fall where they might, it is like a large weight gets removed off your shoulders.

jpeter88 · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

I think you misunderstand some of the criticism.

There are two separate issues.

One is power creep and content design which is where the top 1% are catered to along side the Roleplayers, ignoring most people in the middle. A prime example of this is how you lock the best gear behind the hardest content, so the inevitable result is that the best players with the best builds unlock an even higher tier of performance resulting in their demand for even harder content. It's a negative feedback loop. They could already beat the hardest content without the better gear. Then you give them the better gear and it's even less of a challenge and the difference between average and top tier performance. The difference between average DPS and top DPS has increased by 200% in the last 18 months.

Burning Spell Weave loads in city of ash...probably the easiest dungeon in the game and IS the BEST 5 piece on all magicka classes. Sets like VO and infal are in trials and are among the best sets in the game also, but why should the best gear not drop from the hardest content? there would be no point in running the hard content without the best rewards, thats how games work. If your not good enough or not interested in doing that content thats your problem. You cant balance a game on "average players" input because they dont know wtf they are talking about, they dont understand how anything works, they just play and run what they want, that wont change no matter how much you balance or dont balance the game. Asking "top" tier players is the best input your gonna get. Not because of skill but because they understand how the game runs, what works and what doesnt, understand the math behind builds etc. you need to balance off the best gear/rotations and then everything will fall into place. the average player will still play and not know any difference in what they are going

jpeter88 · February 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't think the average player worries about balance tbh . The average player just plays , avoids the forums and gets upset when something gets nerfed in PVE . It is the people that live ESO that care about balance and its effect on every minute of their waking life online .

This exactly!

soll · February 2017

makes me feel funny every time when I hear statement that game is balances around "elite" players.

ZoS made this game casual as never before. you can easily play your way in the worst build ever, having 4k dps and reach 500+ cp without even close understanding of mechanics of basic combat. not even talking about vet dungeons. The progress of leveling in this game is so fast, that people simply have no time and desire to learn because TESO are not punishing them for wrong builds and low efficiently in any way. , unless they are guided by skilled friend. And now they made leveling even more faster.

As an officer in in pve social guild, it feels painful trying to teach new players. It's simply doesn't work. Out of 200 new members, only 5 asking and listening for an advices. And worst part, as long as this new "majority" of players will face the problems, they not thinking about improving themselves, they complain, that game is hard. Take a look, majority of content is nerfed. vICP? vWGT? joke! even vMA in new patch can be done so easy-cheesy on pet sorc that now even worst player can finish it. you just press 2 bottoms and everything around melts.

LFM v16 ftw.

JinMori · February 2017

dvkkha wrote: »

Ok, I'm a total pvp noob. I played pvp for two days just to get vigor for pve with my bow nightblade and I tell you what:
I did 4k dmg MAX (~2k was the norm) with a critical snipe wich did absolutley nothing at all and got nearly instantly destroyed by everyone. My Volley hit for 300dmg. Each ability, no matter what buffs did nothing at all.

If you think that this is fair in any way somethings wrong with your understanding of competitive gameplay. Yes I understand, gear matters, build matters, tactics matter but when those things create such a huge gap the game is simply broken.

Those two days in cyrodill where the most frustrating experience I ever had in this game and If I have to invest hours over hours to collect gear and learn everything just to be allowed to participate in pvp I honestly pass. Now you could say I'm not important but I bet I'm not the only one with that mindset and if the entry in pvp would be more intuitive alot more people would play it.

I mean seriously, you're telling me in your op that people just need to invest hundreds of hours into the game to play against other players on even ground. That is just insane.

Dude 4 k dps is low even for a complete noob, this post is a lot of excuses, either get better or don't, but if you decide to don't put the effort, then don't turn around and say it's so unfair that this guy who put a lot of effort into what he's doing get such good results, nerf please, get the *** out of here with that mentality. Internet has a lot of accessible information, it takes at most 1 hour to get good informations.

cpuScientist · February 2017

OnThaLoose wrote: »

And where does pve stand with your interpretation of game balance? Pvp got my radiant destruction nerfed by 21% and monster sets no longer critically hitting. I understand why this was done in pvp, but because of pvp, I'm losing 25-35% in trials on my templar. It's ridiculous. What should have happened is radiants range nerfed to 10-15 meters and proc sets dont critical ONLY IN CYRODIIL.

So this is not entirely true. Proc sets already ignored max stats and spell damage, CRIT was the only playable stat that affected monster sets. Making it unbalanced as you had to build into CRIT more than the other stats that may be more in line with your class. So taking away CRIT balanced out proc sets with all the different class passives.

Radiant was in ZOS's mind overperforming. One skill could do more Damage than an entire rotation. The damage of radiant was extreme. I don't think it was just PvP. Furthermore they buffed other aspects of the templar rotation in the initial damage of purifying light and the 2 seconds on shards. Both of these are now dealing a nice amount of damage and are really worth a spot on the bar.

My point is Templar was not stricken down DPS wise because of PvP. It just fit with the buffs ZOS wanted to give them which is amazing sustain and a better rotation. All of which has led them to be more balanced. Basically if them kept their damage from last patch and got the sustain they currently have it would be drastically unbalanced. Currently they appear to be a little weaker than DK and sorc but with better sustain.

But the stun nerf to blazing is ***!

bubbygink · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

Well you'll be happy to hear that on Monday proc sets were sevearly nerfed. You don't see them very much anymore, and when you do, it's probably an inexperienced player because proc sets are no longer the dominant strategy.

I'm on Xbox so still waiting on the update. Is this actually true? Most players have taken off proc sets? I've always had the feel that even with the nerf proc sets will remain dominant by far. Even with a 30ish percent drop in damage stuff like viper should still be BiS. It would be a big surprise to me if proc sets really are not dominant anymore.

DenMoria · February 2017

soll wrote: »

makes me feel funny every time when I hear statement that game is balances around "elite" players.

ZoS made this game casual as never before. you can easily play your way in the worst build ever, having 4k dps and reach 500+ cp without even close understanding of mechanics of basic combat. not even talking about vet dungeons. The progress of leveling in this game is so fast, that people simply have no time and desire to learn because TESO are not punishing them for wrong builds and low efficiently in any way. , unless they are guided by skilled friend. And now they made leveling even more faster.

As an officer in in pve social guild, it feels painful trying to teach new players. It's simply doesn't work. Out of 200 new members, only 5 asking and listening for an advices. And worst part, as long as this new "majority" of players will face the problems, they not thinking about improving themselves, they complain, that game is hard. Take a look, majority of content is nerfed. vICP? vWGT? joke! even vMA in new patch can be done so easy-cheesy on pet sorc that now even worst player can finish it. you just press 2 bottoms and everything around melts.

LFM v16 ftw.

Gee... it's funny how we "casual" players don't agree with you. Funny that. Particularly when it's obvious how "balanced" around the "elite" squad everything is.

Sure, the first 50 levels are great and the solo PvE isn't bad either, but, just try not being perfect and attempting to do anything in the higher level content and see how well we "casual" players are treated.

I suppose we should apologize for not being the "perfect" players like you and not being the "skilled" player that you obviously are that everything is so easy and a walk in the park.

I am sincerely sorry.