WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

DaveMoeDee · February 2017

One reason to meet with streamers is to make them happy so they say positive things while streaming.

Arthg · February 2017

I find the accusations of jealousy or condescension formulated towards the OP completely unjustified and counter-productive.

I can understand why ZOS invited the top-streamers (a reward for the free advertisement they provide, a simple channel of communication, overall excellent knowledge of the game), but the OP has compelling arguments.

How many consensual balances, how many reasonable improvements have been suggested, how many game-crippling bugs have been reported in the feedback threads - only to be consistently, systematically ignored?

To take an example: while this PR thing is going on with top-streamers, a lot of players are just currently invisible in Cyrodiil - the day after a long-awaited patch, and even though it had been reported many times in those feedback threads...

Now how exactly is having a friendly chat with top-streamers going to make this sort of unacceptable clusturfeck impossible in the future? Wouldn't pushing with the OP for more attention to forum feedback actually help prevent this?

Well done, OP, thanks a lot for your efforts - really.

Gedalya · February 2017

Haters gonna hate. I for one like some of the people mentioned here like Deltia; great website and great content.

Balamoor · February 2017

cpuScientist wrote: »

I love when people start throwing out percentages to fit their nonsense. Only like 5% do this and 10% use that.

You know who has the actual numbers and thus make the actual decisions... The devs.

True and so far developers have been basically steering the game to a casual core audience, also you really don't have many raiding guilds left, I was a officer in a very large EQ and WoW raiding guild, folks will still raid and do hardcore PVP but not nearly at the numbers they did, so I took a chill pill and accepted the fact the hobby is evolving most folks in my guild now craft/quest and casually do dungeon runs nothing super serious and most of the folks I run into in the game feel the same way.

Derra · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

[snip]

@Deltia

Come on man. I agree with most of what @willlienellson has said, and my agreement with him has nothing to do with jealousy.

If a game wants to see improved player satisfaction and improved player retention - because both are required for sustainable income growth - then it needs to listen to more than the top 1%, the top 5% or even the top 25% of players.

Let me clue you in to something. You are not there because they think you are a great player, even though you may be. You are there because you have 110,000+ followers on youtube.

All The Best

You know whats ironic? The bottom 90% of the playerbase only find the game unenjoyable in terms of balance sometimes because of the top 10%.
The strictly logic choice would be to get rid of the top 10%.

I´d rather have the top 10% discuss balance (because they actually understand what they´re talking about most of the time) than somebody who does not care or has no insight to mechanics.

Now you might be inclined to compare the game to the real world where the top 10% running the country can be pretty problematic - but contrary to that in a game everyone has equal chances.

@willlienellson can you give an example where you think the opinions on balance of our youtube heros are unfavorable for the average player?
[edited to remove quote]

kuro-dono · February 2017

this game needs to separate completely and totally casuals from elites. CASUALS ONLY TRIALS. CASUALS ONLY PVP --- ELITES ONLY PVP, ELITES ONLY TRIALS. only then some sort of peace may land.

casual or elite pve? > pve> your max mitigation/dps/heal

casual or elite pvp?> kills/death ratio, time to kill ratio, accuracy, survivality.

something along those. and ITS forced. nomore elites farming n00bs and making videos of themself looking cool while they whack 20 ppl in flash, about time elites play only vs elites.

nomore casuals wasting elites time soloing, or trioing or whatevering dungeon at ultraspeed rate.

simple, and way less crying, you wanna be elite? become elite. you wanna farm? become godlike and farm them elites. wannabe tourist? be tourist and enjoy the game.

Darkestnght · February 2017

I do not want ESO streamers representing me.I play nothing like them and could care a less about their input. Just my opinion. I personal think it is all for show and will not prove to be productive to a player like me at all.

Lieblingsjunge · February 2017

Let me get this straight:
1) You complain when Zeni does *not* include the playerbase.
2) You complain when Zeni *does* include the playerbase.

Whether you like it or not: Streamers & Poster-boys are a part of the playerbase and they experience the game as well. I'm sorry if you've had issues with people not attacking friends, but that's more out of player respect than out of friendship.
Most of the streamers are playing small-scale or solo-PvP, so naturally they do not fight other Solo-PvPers, simply 'cus of respect. 1vX can *not* happen if the opposing player is good. So it's a consensus that you simply do not attack other 1vX-players, because you know that it's few of them, and as soon as it's a good player involved in the X, the 1 is pretty screwed.

Let me turn your argument around: If not the streamers & poster-boys, then who else should represent the community? Because it looks like, from all the Z-marked threads, that Zeni is active on their forums.
The people you say that "live" the game, call it no-lifing if you want, they know the end-game much better than a guy who started the game 2 weeks ago and power-levelled to 50 and joined Cyrodiil immediately after, but found his forum-account.

I don't know. I would rather believe the feedback from someone who's "skilled"(Lack of another word, don't shoot me) at the game, than from someone who barely knows left & right in the World of Tamriel.

Sinthrax · February 2017

I don't think it matters either way. They going to do what they want.

Hell, some of the streamers are the biggest crybabies in the game. Some have also been banned for cheating. Although, that was all just a misunderstanding....

MopeyHat · February 2017

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

altemriel · February 2017

I would say that the streamers who post tons of build videos know the best about the issues/bugs/glitches/exploits

Balamoor · February 2017

MopeyHat wrote: »

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

It's hard to find people that specialize in metrics in the video game industry, SEO specialist data analyst, and marketing analytics are all hard positions to fill because game developers usually pay less and work longer hours than other companies. You might see recent grads in these positions, but they leave for more pay/better benefits less hours with enterprise companies as soon as they can. My entire time at TS2 veteran C++ programmers and any type of analyst were the hardest positions to fill.

MopeyHat · February 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

MopeyHat wrote: »

Does anyone at ZOS do data analysis, I wonder?

That statistic with the 3% of players having all inventory upgrades and 50% having none concerned me. Did they even look at say, how long have those players been playing? How much of their inventory was full?

Makes it seem like they cited a number to placate us about their choice rather than using the statistics to understand player behavior and predict opportunity.

It's hard to find people that specialize in metrics in the video game industry, SEO specialist data analyst, and marketing analytics are all hard positions to fill because game developers usually pay less and work longer hours than other companies. You might see recent grads in these positions, but they leave for more pay/better benefits less hours with enterprise companies as soon as they can. My entire time at TS2 veteran C++ programmers and any type of analyst were the hardest positions to fill.

I agree, but you don't really need a specialist for some of this stuff. A couple smart tools will tell you way more about the player base than the underwhelming streamers mentioned here. Fortunately I'm under the impression they decided to take more than just them.

rfennell_ESO · February 2017

The main issue with inviting popular streamers is that popular streamers are also very far removed from the base.

They have far more time playing than others and min/max at a level not normally seen. Like if you play a stamina class, who really has the time to level up destruction staff just to use the ultimate? The streamers do, because they don't do much else past play games... I know they claim otherwise, and claims are easy to make... but math is a thing and when you divide a day of 24 hours into 6-8 of streaming + anything else you are left with needing a longer day.

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

You can just imagine the drivel they spew to devs if given the opportunity. It's not going to be constructive or meaningful.

Just look at the streamers that do nothing but follow the servers giving them the most buffs due to server alignment. They only play where they have an advantage and then they exploit on top of that. That's who ZOS picks to represent players?

Sypher is the only reasonable one and plays multiple faction and doesn't (for the most part, or as far as I know) really abuse the game.

It's a 3 faction game and one faction is over-represented with the streamers, because they need to play with an advantage... because without it.. they aren't very good.

DHale · February 2017

You lost me at powercreep. There is nothing wrong with it we have now unlocked 600 cp of the 3600 and have 160 gear. This is a game about power creep. I have leveled when vet levels were 7 million Xp or more. Btw I was more powerful at veteran level five when the game started than I am now.

Karius_Imalthar · February 2017

I can't speak on everything the OP wrote but I do feel that a lot of companies like ZOS listen to the streamers who do not speak for average players and don't necessarily have the same experiences/frustrations as average players.

MopeyHat · February 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

So much this in regards to certain streamers.

What kind of "ambassador" just pisses off half to 2/3s of alliance warfare players? How can they represent us when they can be so dense as to not recognize the imbalances they create?

As far as Cyrodiil goes, I wouldn't put a lot of stake in their opinions.

Paraflex · February 2017

I like the idea they are bringing people in the community to the table. I may not agree with 100% of thier ideas I trust all of them will help balance and promote a healthy PvP and PvE environment.

Castagere · February 2017

Yeah this is nothing new with Utubers that stream mmo's. Their streams are for the other elite players in the game only. Most non elite players find those streams totally useless to them. I stopped watching most Utube game streamers a long time ago. Ever notice how hard it is for new players to really get the help they need. They mostly get bombarded with info they had nothing to do with the question they asked. I always tell new players to any mmo to stay away from these streamer and sit back and do their own research or google their question in hopes of finding an answer. If they are not willing to do this then they are in for a bad time.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Precisely this.

Stop paying attention to the 1% with a camera. They do not represent us.

Riga_Mortis · February 2017

Dont think theses guys and gals will have much influence over things like class balance. Pretty sure they are there to test the ebb and flow of the new modes in battlegrounds, and maybe the mechanics of the new trial.
This is basically the ZeniMax equivalent of Activision flying out popular CoD youtubers to playtest new map packs etc.

DragonBound · February 2017

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

Dont think theses guys and gals will have much influence over things like class balance. Pretty sure they are there to test the ebb and flow of the new modes in battlegrounds, and maybe the mechanics of the new trial.
This is basically the ZeniMax equivalent of Activision flying out popular CoD youtubers to playtest new map packs etc.

Maybe your right, but man this was a refresing topic from your usual stuff.

DragonBound · February 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The main issue with inviting popular streamers is that popular streamers are also very far removed from the base.

They have far more time playing than others and min/max at a level not normally seen. Like if you play a stamina class, who really has the time to level up destruction staff just to use the ultimate? The streamers do, because they don't do much else past play games... I know they claim otherwise, and claims are easy to make... but math is a thing and when you divide a day of 24 hours into 6-8 of streaming + anything else you are left with needing a longer day.

Not going to name name's as that always yields a warning or a suspension... but one of the "well known" streamers is not only a faction fanboy, but he's pretty nasty in game. His showcase is abusing mechanics and doing nothing but attack one faction with a zerg he claims isn't there.

It's insulting to have to be represented by players of one faction who all abuse the hell out of the game.

You can just imagine the drivel they spew to devs if given the opportunity. It's not going to be constructive or meaningful.

Just look at the streamers that do nothing but follow the servers giving them the most buffs due to server alignment. They only play where they have an advantage and then they exploit on top of that. That's who ZOS picks to represent players?

Sypher is the only reasonable one and plays multiple faction and doesn't (for the most part, or as far as I know) really abuse the game.

It's a 3 faction game and one faction is over-represented with the streamers, because they need to play with an advantage... because without it.. they aren't very good.

Very interesting.

Rex-Umbra · February 2017

I trust my streamers.

Mojmir · February 2017

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I trust my streamers.

Make sure you click that donate button,don't forget to subscribe "play dubstep"

Balamoor · February 2017

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

I trust my streamers.

Says the streamer!

I kid I kid :-P

Calboy · February 2017

Mmm delicious egos

Paraflex · February 2017

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

Fuxo · February 2017

ZOS knows the Morrowind chapter will be reviewed by media and prepare for influx of new players. There is a lot of money being invested in marketing and improving the gameplay is crucial. They are doing everything they can to make sure the game gets better scores than last time.

Arthg · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

You claim your reasoning is based on facts, but the ones you mention are approximate (your own words), and you end up speculating on the costs and orders of the day of the meeting.

In the process, not only do you fail to address the issues at hand in this thread (are streamers a good choice to represent the player base? why not use forum feedback more?), but you don't even bother to try to understand the OP's bona fide point of view (quote the part where he "***" about not being selected or about being able to do a better job than said streamers, please).

It's OK to think that it's a good idea of ZOS's to have a ginger latte (my turn to speculate) with popular streamers, and some good may indeed come out of all this.

But clearly ZOS's appalling record of ignored suggestions, bugs/cheats/exploits reports on these here forums, along with the per definition exceptional (i.e. not representative) experience streamers have of the game (because of their skill, status, gaming time, etc.), should at least make you pause and consider that the OP, well, has a point, really.

If this still isn't the case, well apply the first sentence of your own post to yourself and the OP.

Balamoor · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

@willlienellson you need to log off the forums for awhile your assuming a lot about this meeting and attacking streamers and players with your mixed emotions and opinion of them.

Facts - we know approximately 10 people or more went to this meeting.

An airline ticket,hotel,food,car, and any other travel expense would be at most $5,000 per person for a few days. They are spending at most $50,000 for an unknown reason. Plus their own employees are now assigned to this unknown focus group. They had them sign contracts for this meeting.

I think this is a good sign for the game and hopefully we have some meaningful content and PvP balance with knowledgeable players,streamers,and trial players.

This is endgame content they are focusing on I would be 100% sure if that.

We know last week they released hype about the next expansion. My guess is they want this focus group to help them develop the next expansion and make it even better for end game people.

You should be happy about them spending the time with players in the community and not bitching about it like you should have been selected or could do a better job yourself.

No offense, but you seem to have a dog in the hunt. I can't speak for @willlienellson, but me personally I really don't. I just have seen the train wreck when developers listen too much to self styled elite players even at end game.

My company was consulting for EA/Bioware when they did their guild summit and we cautioned them to invite a larger demographic and they didn't listen, It cost them a lot of subs because many of other loyal players felt alienated. Afterward they did the Cantina tour bus to try and make up for it but, Bioware didn't see a significant recovery until the Revan expansion.

At Quakecon15 and Pax Boston16 the Zenimax booth was packed, seemed like most people there wanted to give feedback, I kept hearing at Quakecon that folks didn't feel like they were being heard, and I'm sorry but, a few youtubers who live off clicks isn't going to change that perception.

I don't have a problem with who Zenimax invites, but they do need to find a better way to receive feedback from a larger demographic of the game, if they don't they are going to make their customers feel alienated and that's never good, especially in this fickle market.

Just my two cents take it as you will.