There's no such thing as "Balance for the Average Player"

wisej12 · February 2017

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

SHADOW2KK · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player, the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance even works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

Well said, knowledge is power.

But whiners will whine regardless.

Waffennacht · February 2017

I like the strategy of Light attack until all 3 sets proc for a win, took YEARS of practice to get down.

wisej12 · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

I like the strategy of Light attack until all 3 sets proc for a win, took YEARS of practice to get down.

I will admit that proc sets were a huge loss for deep gameplay, but with the nerfs that happened yesterday, proc sets will only be used by inexperienced players now. They are no longer the optimal playstyle, so keep your head up.

Removing their ability to critical hit reduces their damage by approximately 20%-30% which is a massive nerf, and was more than enough to allow many other strategies to counter them.

UrQuan · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

You're not wrong, but...

For "average" or newer players there needs to be the appearance of balance. And by that I mean that it needs to be evident that there are counters to different strategies - counters that don't rely entirely on gear or other things that may seem hopelessly out of reach for them. Knowing that there are counters, and that those counters are attainable is vitally important, because without that appearance of balance newer players are more likely to give up than they are likely to reach for the skill-level/understanding to start being able to counter these strategies.

There's nothing wrong with it taking a lot of dedication to get to the point where you understand (and can implement) the various counters to various strategies, but somehow it needs to be more clear to newer players and casual players that it is possible. And I'm afraid I don't have any bright ideas on how that could be done.

Paraflex · February 2017

I agree with a majority of your statement about having a greater understanding but to say your an elite PvP player and played from beta is great but that's your opinion. I could say iv never lost a duel but that's irrelevant.

Have you seen some of these perma blocking tanks with infinite resources? There's not a lot of high level experience strategy that kills them. They are a problem just like heavy armor cancer Templars in Reactive that heal through everything. I'd say it's more of a issue about infinite resources than skill based PvP at some point.

wisej12 · February 2017

UrQuan wrote: »

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

You're not wrong, but...

For "average" or newer players there needs to be the appearance of balance. And by that I mean that it needs to be evident that there are counters to different strategies - counters that don't rely entirely on gear or other things that may seem hopelessly out of reach for them. Knowing that there are counters, and that those counters are attainable is vitally important, because without that appearance of balance newer players are more likely to give up than they are likely to reach for the skill-level/understanding to start being able to counter these strategies.

There's nothing wrong with it taking a lot of dedication to get to the point where you understand (and can implement) the various counters to various strategies, but somehow it needs to be more clear to newer players and casual players that it is possible. And I'm afraid I don't have any bright ideas on how that could be done.

That's a very good point. I think streamers and other highly-active players in the community help significantly in that regard, especially players like Sypher who make an effort to showcase every different class and popular strategy. Although just copying their builds won't help the inexperienced player, I'm more talking about the "hope" that it gives those players.

Paraflex wrote: »

I agree with a majority of your statement about having a greater understanding but to say your an elite PvP player and played from beta is great but that's your opinion. I could say iv never lost a duel but that's irrelevant.

Have you seen some of these perma blocking tanks with infinite resources? There's not a lot of high level experience strategy that kills them. They are a problem just like heavy armor cancer Templars in Reactive that heal through everything. I'd say it's more of a issue about infinite resources than skill based PvP at some point.

Sometimes it's useful to use one's credentials to make an argument stronger, but I get your point. In any case, I think ZOS did a good thing by nerfing Malubeth and Desert Rose, since those were two of the primary culprits for the "invincibility builds". Although it will still be possible to have these builds, it won't be as easy to deal significant damage with them. In that respect, I think it's almost okay to be invincible—the "counter" strategy is to just ignore them in a fight because they won't be providing significant pressure to your group. The problem occurs when they're able to deal a large amount of damage as well, which I never really see anymore.

Of course, they will always deal enough damage to kill inexperienced players, and it's hard to balance against that, since some players will inevitably be very squishy and easy to kill, even for players that don't build any damage. I think that's what your point is, and I agree it's unfortunate and not very fun.

It's also true that the invincibility builds are boring and pointless to duel against, since nobody will ever die. I mostly view those players as trolling, since they're not exactly winning, or doing anything of value or significance.

dmar613 · February 2017

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

wisej12 · February 2017

dmar613 wrote: »

I can definitley agree with what you are saying, but there comes a point where something has got to change for server populations. On xbox scourge NA, yellows are always popped locked with a group that pushes people for emp and receives Real money as the incentive. At most we'll have 50 blues fighting 200 yellow, happened last week, when we managed to get emp, we were dethroned in 30 minutes.

Also, I refuse to go to haderus because barely any competition in there, and too much dc'ing to have to wait in the que all time. I just don't understand why there is not mechanics in place to promote a healthy balance to server populations.
People refuse to go to scourge because there are too many yellows to fight against, but they will pop lock skull as soon as blue gets emp haha with 1 bar other factions. No one to blame really, just the way it is.... you can't play solo efficiently anymore without getting zerged on no matter where you are.

Tldr: server pops need to be rethought because yellows zerg scourge, reds zerg skull, blues zerg haddy along with every other faction. azuras empty, skeleton empty. we try to leave lagerus, go to skull get zerg by 200 reds vs 50 blue, or scourge 50 blue vs 200 yellow blazing shield tanks whith capture flag builds who lag your whole group out when they show up because there are so many.... js that *** is trash lol no competition, they don't want that.

I think that has less to do with game balance and more to do with large-scale PvP design. I'm optimistic that the new AP rewards for capturing resources (1500 AP) will be a good incentive for encouraging small fights. Also, I haven't played on Xbox, but on NA PC, Haderus has a very healthy and balanced population (usually) because the campaign points are based on resource capture, rather than keeps. People realized it's a more effective strategy to split up into small groups and take separate resources simultaneously. Of course the zergs still exist for pushing keeps, but I'd say there's a relatively healthy balance of gameplay compared to Trueflame where it's Zerg City™

Side Note:
I once flipped a Haderus campaign in the last 6 hours of a campaign, with a group of 15 players against a zerg of 50, because we split up, taking 5-10 resources at the same time, covering much more ground than the zerg, and avoiding full-out encounters with them. By the end of the night, We had captured 3/4 of the resources across the entire map, and yet almost every single keep belonged to the enemies. The inability to transit between keeps was a small disadvantage compared to the power of taking 10 resources at once, while the enemy zerg could only do one thing at a time.

dmar613 · February 2017

my point was that there is no strategy to counter what i displayed above, I agree that it is a larger issue on pvp design, but they are interconnected with game balance as a whole. too many average players are discourge to go into a campagne because of pop unbalance

and im not saying that flipping keeps to get emp while you are out numbered is not do-able lol, i'm a grand overlord. im saying when for months straight 24/7 a guild holds a campagne with 200 people at all times, nigbt cap early cap. w.e they have to do to ensure doninination so that the pug that is in first place gets emp and pays real money to do so... that is a problem

wisej12 · February 2017

dmar613 wrote: »

my point was that there is no strategy to counter what i displayed above, I agree that it is a larger issue on pvp design, but they are interconnected with game balance as a whole. too many average players are discourge to go into a campagne because of pop unbalance

I agree it's often a problem. One simple solution would be to add a few more campaigns, allow you to have 2 or 3 home campaigns at once, and put a restriction onto campaign populations so that they can't get too unbalanced. For example, "if AD has more than 20% more players than EP and DC, new AD players are locked from entering the campaign at that time" or something like that.

Isellskooma · February 2017

Best forum post I've seen ina while, good job OP.

dmar613 · February 2017

i once thought that more campagnes would help, but from what ive expirenced that is not the case. I have thought of an idea like if ad has 20% more players then they have to wait until pops are closer together its sounds really good on paper, just dunno how it would play out in the field.

Paraflex · February 2017

There's no doubt the recent changes for balance is a step in the right direction. I hope they can continue to make good improvements. Average players are a moving target to please. Even when they are happy give them a month and they will cry about the next thing...it's a tough problem to fix but atleast now ZOS is addressing core issues.

dmar613 · February 2017

yes great posts op, and people who are just playing this game for the first time or their 1st mmo for that matter fail to realize how complex these games can be, espicially if you have no mentor or someone to show you the ropes...

wisej12 · February 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

There's no doubt the recent changes for balance is a step in the right direction. I hope they can continue to make good improvements. Average players are a moving target to please. Even when they are happy give them a month and they will cry about the next thing...it's a tough problem to fix but atleast now ZOS is addressing core issues.

Another good point.
ZOS tends to make drastic, sweeping changes to balance indirectly when they add new content, and it usually makes things worse (despite having super cool new stuff to play with). However, I think they've done a really consistent job in following up those content patches with balance patches that are pretty much on-point, always targeting the core problems. I'm optimistic that this will continue.

dmar613 wrote: »

yes great posts op, and people who are just playing this game for the first time or their 1st mmo for that matter fail to realize how complex these games can be, espicially if you have no mentor or someone to show you the ropes...

I think that's really the core problem when it comes to people feeling that the game is unbalanced. I think it would be a great idea of ZOS to invest more into their streamer community, like League of Legends did. League is an equally complex game (if not more complex), but new players still have the courage and grit to learn and improve themselves because they feel inspired by watching professional players stream and participate in tournaments. The inexperienced players know there's some legitimacy to getting crushed, because they constantly see the people who have risen above that.

willlienellson · February 2017

I think you misunderstand some of the criticism.

There are two separate issues.

One is power creep and content design which is where the top 1% are catered to along side the Roleplayers, ignoring most people in the middle. A prime example of this is how you lock the best gear behind the hardest content, so the inevitable result is that the best players with the best builds unlock an even higher tier of performance resulting in their demand for even harder content. It's a negative feedback loop. They could already beat the hardest content without the better gear. Then you give them the better gear and it's even less of a challenge and the difference between average and top tier performance. The difference between average DPS and top DPS has increased by 200% in the last 18 months.

Two is balance between the classes which has nothing to do with balancing FOR average players. But it has a lot to do with listening TO average players. When you listen to a small number of people who have very specific and unique experience in-game, you don't draw on as much feedback as you should to make informed balancing decisions.

Let me give you an example.

Let's imagine I was the best ganker in the game. I had the most burst damage of any player, period. If you were to give undue influence to my feedback it would lead you to the conclusion that Destro Ult is not at all OP and very well balanced because most of the time when someone casts destro Ult, I simply focus them and burst them down - out DPSing their ult and removing the threat.

But I don't think that's an accurate representation of most PvP experience and it would be a shame if my feedback was given more emphasis than others just because I was so good at that previously described playstyle that I had some big "reputation".

disintegr8 · February 2017

This game is my first and only MMO and when I started I had absolutely no idea what I was doing - I just made it up as I went along. I still largely go solo everywhere, do my own thing and generally avoid hanging out with the 'pros' as I do not have the required competitive nature or patience to 'git gud'.

I still really enjoy the game and choose to not partake in the things that frustrate me, like duels, vet trials or MSA. I only go into PVP when I am in the right mood, knowing that while I am good enough to assist and support in an attack or a defence, as soon as I am alone I will most likely get killed.

It is still only a game, so I get up, brush myself off and go back to the battle. No reason for ZOS to change anything for my benefit.

Kronuxx · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

Some strategies counter other strategies. And other strategies, in turn, counter those strategies. It's as simple as that. Something is only "unbalanced" if there's no way to beat that strategy. And let me tell you, as a top-ranking PvP player, every strategy currently has a counter.

The reason you "feel" that the game is unbalanced is simply because you haven't reached the skill-level/understanding to successfully counter some strategy that you consistently lose to. It should be your goal, if you want to win, to decipher that strategy's weaknesses and leverage them to your advantage. Once you become skilled enough and knowledgable enough to successfully counter most (or all) strategies in the game, you'll find yourself to be a top-ranking PvPer. It's impossible to find a playstyle or build for yourself that doesn't have its own weaknesses, but your goal is to limit the enemy's opportunity to exploit those weaknesses you have. Doing this against every strategy that exists in the game IS VERY DIFFICULT and takes MONTHS or YEARS of dedication, thought, trial-and-error, and most importantly, practice. I have played this game since launch, and I can tell you, if you haven't spent thousands of hours perfecting your PvP strategy, you will lose to some other strategies, because that's what it takes. That's how games work. When you lose, you probably feel like "I had no chance whatsoever, that enemy was insanely OP". As a sorc main, that's how I always felt against Magicka Dragonknights. But let me tell you, there is hope, and there ARE ways to beat the Magicka Dragonknight as a sorc. ZOS won't give you that satisfaction, you have to earn it yourself.

I think this is a good point that you bring up. Balance should be brought upon the game through eyes that truly understand game mechanics. That's not to say every "elite" player has a good understanding though, as those two premises are separate and not connected. Meaning: Being an "elite" player (whatever that means) doesn't automatically qualify that person as one who understands game mechanics. BUT, bringing in more than a few "elite" players to evaluate game mechanics is a much better opportunity to come close to fully hashing out balance within the game, as this allows for multiple viewpoints and counter view points to be brought to the table and become evaluated.

Paraflex · February 2017

The bad part is right now starting out in the game is the worst experience ever for a new/average player in PvP. Sadly they will use the "balance and buff me" as a crutch.

OnThaLoose · February 2017

And where does pve stand with your interpretation of game balance? Pvp got my radiant destruction nerfed by 21% and monster sets no longer critically hitting. I understand why this was done in pvp, but because of pvp, I'm losing 25-35% in trials on my templar. It's ridiculous. What should have happened is radiants range nerfed to 10-15 meters and proc sets dont critical ONLY IN CYRODIIL.

jarydf · February 2017

This is the most articulate "L2P" post ever. Well done OP.

DenMoria · February 2017

ESO isn't about "Playing as you want", it's about maximizing the possibilities of the build that you have regardless of whether it is the way you "want" to play or not.

I agree with the TC on most of the points and that is the reason why the elites are as elite as they are.

As a casual PvE player, I know better than to involve myself in the PvP environment on a regular basis as I simply am not good enough, nor do I have the patience to build up my skills sufficiently to compete with the elite players.

While I can admire them from afar and take to heart so many of their techniques and head their advice, I readily admit that I will never live up to what they have been able to accomplish.

Honestly, I admire it. I don't know how they find the time and patience, but, regardless, I admire it.

IcyDeadPeople · February 2017

wisej12 wrote: »

I often see people complain that ZOS only balances the game for the "elite" players. It's the idea that if you're just an average player the game is horribly unbalanced. But that sentiment just shows a lack of understanding of how this game's balance works. My goal is to provide some clarification on how the balance works (without offending anyone, hopefully).

I suspect recent complaints about the state of class balance are from newer players, perhaps not aware of how much progress has already been made. It will never be perfect, but sweeping balance changes introduced with various patches over time have massively improved the PVP experience for good, average and even bad players.

During the first year after launch, the odds were rather severely stacked against anyone wearing medium or heavy armor, for example, and nightblades and stam sorcs had a particularly tough time. At this point, perhaps some classes are a bit stronger than others and perhaps it is a bit too easy to reach high damage potential in heavy armor, but at least you can finally make a reasonably viable character from any of the four classes, stamina or magicka and your choice of light, medium or heavy armor.

Sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far in one direction or another, but these developers clearly listen to feedback from everyone, not just elite players. I've seen quite a few improvements come directly from suggestions made on the forum by us lowly average players.

wisej12 · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

I think you misunderstand some of the criticism.

There are two separate issues.

One is power creep and content design which is where the top 1% are catered to along side the Roleplayers, ignoring most people in the middle. A prime example of this is how you lock the best gear behind the hardest content, so the inevitable result is that the best players with the best builds unlock an even higher tier of performance resulting in their demand for even harder content. It's a negative feedback loop. They could already beat the hardest content without the better gear. Then you give them the better gear and it's even less of a challenge and the difference between average and top tier performance. The difference between average DPS and top DPS has increased by 200% in the last 18 months.

Two is balance between the classes which has nothing to do with balancing FOR average players. But it has a lot to do with listening TO average players. When you listen to a small number of people who have very specific and unique experience in-game, you don't draw on as much feedback as you should to make informed balancing decisions.

Let me give you an example.

Let's imagine I was the best ganker in the game. I had the most burst damage of any player, period. If you were to give undue influence to my feedback it would lead you to the conclusion that Destro Ult is not at all OP and very well balanced because most of the time when someone casts destro Ult, I simply focus them and burst them down - out DPSing their ult and removing the threat.

But I don't think that's an accurate representation of most PvP experience and it would be a shame if my feedback was given more emphasis than others just because I was so good at that previously described playstyle that I had some big "reputation".

See, your approaching the "perspective" issue from an incorrect assumption. Your assumption is that the best ganker in the game does not have the perspective of playing with other strategies, when, in fact, that player most likely has a very deep understanding of his opponent and frankly every other strategy that exists. For him to be the best, the reason he's using his particular strategy must be because he's tried every other strategy to counter the destro ult, and none of them worked. Any sensible person at that point would admit that there aren't enough counters against the destro ult (for the sake of your example, at least). If he's simply a very good ganker, but he doesn't have a very deep understanding of every other strategy, he simply isn't the "elite" we're talking about.

ThePaleItalian · February 2017

I agree.

The culture we live in, even more so I feel in gaming is how everyone "deserves" or is "entitled" to something from gaming companies.

I remember playing PvP in ESO when it was first launched... I hated it, never stepped foot back into it for over a year. Started running with a PvP guild, smaller groups and playing and learning my class, what I felt comfortable with and what worked for me. I started to get better, survive more, finding out gear and combinations.

But a lot of players don't want that. So you got mortal spams, tremorscale taunt spams and combinations of 1 shotting gear set ups.

Unfortunately, you do not get many civil conversations... I think it will be boiled down too "L2P issue" or "elitism".

Some players are just better players... I will admit that. So you will not get a level playing field. I do not think a lot of gamers want to admit that.

Sav72 · February 2017

Average player?

When 8 people are beating on a MK DK and he killing them and he is not dieing, how do you call that balance?

PFT.....

IcyDeadPeople · February 2017

Sav72 wrote: »

Average player?

When 8 people are beating on a MK DK and he killing them and he is not dieing, how do you call that balance?

PFT.....

More balanced compared to launch when 30 people might have died to him.

I don't know about your particular experience, but there are some really good 1vX players out there who also spend a lot of time testing and coming up with interesting builds for this purpose, and then perhaps part of the problem is it's a little too easy to have high damage output, sufficient sustain and still be close to phys/spell resistance cap in heavy armor.

Maybe there should be a slightly bigger tradeoff with dps and penetration if you choose heavy instead of medium or light.

wisej12 · February 2017

Kronuxx wrote: »

I think this is a good point that you bring up. Balance should be brought upon the game through eyes that truly understand game mechanics. That's not to say every "elite" player has a good understanding though, as those two premises are separate and not connected. Meaning: Being an "elite" player (whatever that means) doesn't automatically qualify that person as one who understands game mechanics. BUT, bringing in more than a few "elite" players to evaluate game mechanics is a much better opportunity to come close to fully hashing out balance within the game, as this allows for multiple viewpoints and counter view points to be brought to the table and become evaluated.

Perhaps you're right, and that might be what @willlienellson was getting at, which I failed to recognize. It's probably true that the points I made don't apply to EVERY "elite" PvPer, but that they probably apply to most of them, and by bring many of them together a general consensus of game balance could probably be reached from the differing perspectives.

OnThaLoose wrote: »

And where does pve stand with your interpretation of game balance? Pvp got my radiant destruction nerfed by 21% and monster sets no longer critically hitting. I understand why this was done in pvp, but because of pvp, I'm losing 25-35% in trials on my templar. It's ridiculous. What should have happened is radiants range nerfed to 10-15 meters and proc sets dont critical ONLY IN CYRODIIL.

Personally I don't play PvE very much at all, except to get equipment for PvP. My real-life brother, who is also a top-ranking PvPer, but is also a top-ranking PvEer (unlike me) seems to express mild frustration with PvE balance, but I can't speak on that subject beyond that point.

ChimeraDeux · February 2017

I played PVE strictly for about 1.5 years. During that time I was able to solo most of everything. I did the quest, dark anchors, world bosses etc... I thought " I'm the hero of Tamriel, I'm 10 ft tall and bullet proof" bring on PVP.

I didn't last 5 minutes. I realized that Cyrodill was a boot and I was an ant. Through sheer stubborness, I stuck with it and began to learn how to play PVP. PVP is a totally different play style and mentality than PVE. Luckly, I was able to follow some better players and learn from them. Now I enjoy PVP, still suck at it but I laugh about the deaths now. I actually survived a gank attempt for the first time a couple nights ago.

Just because you are good at one aspect of the game doesn't you will succeed at others. Learn,adapt and over come.

wisej12 · February 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I suspect recent complaints about the state of class balance are from newer players, perhaps not aware of how much progress has already been made. It will never be perfect, but sweeping balance changes introduced with various patches over time have massively improved the PVP experience for good, average and even bad players.

During the first year after launch, the odds were rather severely stacked against anyone wearing medium or heavy armor, for example, and nightblades and stam sorcs had a particularly tough time. At this point, perhaps some classes are a bit stronger than others and perhaps it is a bit too easy to reach high damage potential in heavy armor, but at least you can finally make a reasonably viable character from any of the four classes, stamina or magicka and your choice of light, medium or heavy armor.

Sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far in one direction or another, but these developers clearly listen to feedback from everyone, not just elite players. I've seen quite a few improvements come directly from suggestions made on the forum by us lowly average players.

This has also been my experience. Any time someone complains that "ZOS doesn't listen", I'm thinking to myself, "uhhh they listen a LOT and they're usually very smart about their balance changes..."

Sav72 wrote: »

Average player?

When 8 people are beating on a MK DK and he killing them and he is not dieing, how do you call that balance?

PFT.....

The point of the post was that if you look at the top-performing players, all of the classes are pretty balanced. The reason you saw 8 players failing to kill a single player, is simply because none of those 8 players knew how to. If just one of those players was as experienced and skilled as that MK DK, you would've seen a very different situation unfold. Sure, the other 7 players might have still died, but you would've seen those two duke it out in an epic duel with no clear winner.