WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

pattyLtd · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Are you serious?
LOL, how many people do you exactly expect them to invite?

I wasn't aware that in-person physical presence was required to give feedback.

If only there was a mechanism in the game itself to give feedback. If only there was a virtual lobby of sorts where players could post their ideas and issues and sometimes even reach consensus. In ancient Rome they had these outdoor public squares for discussion called "forums". We could name the virtual square after them.

If only this company had created ways to communicate with them without having to physically go to Maryland.

IF ONLY!

I thought they were invited to test things not yet available to us to get early feedback before it's even available on the test server. You're tone is that of a jealous school kid to be honest.

Paulington · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

The only thing i´m concerned about is no dedicated magica sorc being part of the club.

I'm a dedicated magicka sorcerer.

.

idk · February 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Willie you need to calm down...

I would suggest heading this message.

willlienellson wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Well, i don't really know who you would like to "represent" us players or how they should go about selecting them?.

Bislobo wrote: »

Wait guys wait, i know this one... The best players to represent our player base.....

Why do you feel inadequate to represent yourselves? Just curious.

Being aggressive like this in replying to other players is not appropriate and demonstrates a lack of argument.

The person that you quoted is merely stating, for at least some aspects of the game but not all, there are players that are well suited to provide feedback to Zos. There are players that understand better than Zos how the mechanics of the game actually work. That is all he is saying, but it does not cover everything.

hamgatan · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

The only thing i´m concerned about is no dedicated magica sorc being part of the club.

Id be more concerned about stamplars getting invited...

willlienellson · February 2017

[SNIp]

I've played this game since the day it launched and I've seen great unknown players leave this game because player feedback was ignored for...months and years...while inexplicable decisions were made.

There are in my estimation, very few people left in this game that were here at launch that aren't either cancer/exploit groups, semi-professional gamers trying to profit from it, or roleplaying supercasuals that don't a lick about balance.

To suggest I am jealous is to suggest I wish it were me in their place. That's a crass dismissal of my motivation.

I want my friends, good players, to stop leaving the game because it is always moving in inexplicable directions by a company that seems completely ALOOF to feedback while the game becomes more and more synonymous with these celebrity players that are surrounded by, if not themselves, the most cancerous toxic members of the game.

[Edited for back and forth]

technohic · February 2017

hamgatan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

The only thing i´m concerned about is no dedicated magica sorc being part of the club.

Id be more concerned about stamplars getting invited...

This is actually why I like that some of these guys are the ones there because some play a little of everything.

That said; I hope @Alcast or the daniels guy were invited.

willlienellson · February 2017

Eremith wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Hey man at least these streamers can spell ZeniMax right.

Oh darn. That completely refutes everything I said. Totes.
I didn't even bold the corporate name, or capitalize it in the middle. I'm so ashamed of myself.

Most popular streamers tend to play all classes, they tend to have a lot of play time in the game. They play the game at a very high level and know what they are talking about.

So why shouldn't zos bring in high end players for testing? Is that such a bad thing.

I can tell you an interesting story from one MMORPG.
Once upon a time, developers decided to make a closed test of a huge patch with completely changed classes. It wasn't a PTS, they invited only 100 top-players from the biggest and the most famous guilds to that test. That players are top-donators of course and top-PvPers and they supposed to be very interested in balance and other aspects of the game. A lot of complaints and whining was on the forums after that news. People said "what are you doing? Why not PTS for all?". Developers answer was "We're believe that feedback from a few of top-players will be more accurate and correct".
Well, after that was a PTS for other players. And there was unseen disbalance. Warriors killed every one with only one button with AoE debuff. Druid DoTs didn't work properly and their DPS in DD-build was lower than other classes in Support-build. Every support-class was a killing machine with their own buffs, debuffs and self-healing. Healers died in 5-6 secs because support-classes was able to control them immediately, imagine that healer just stands and can do nothing untill he die.
That is an example practice. If developers gonna listen to a couple of top-players instead of forum community, then do not expect anything good.

I think a lot of people who play this game don't have tons of experience in MMOs, so they can neither draw from bad past experiences or contrast the way Zos operates with better companies.

I think a lot are young. And I think a lot came over from the single player TES games. I could be wrong, but I think that contributes to some of the odd expectations we see.

Half the time a lot are demanding everything for free and the other half the time zos can do nothing wrong. It's an odd paradox.

willlienellson · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

95℅ of the playerbase has no clue on what's going on with the game or how the classes are suppose to be played. Majority of ideas I see on the forums would completely break the game.

I find it interesting and frankly perplexing how the majority of people on the forum keep saying the majority of people on the forums have no clue.

I'm not sure how that works.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

@Alcast

Is there any chance you'll point out how bad magplar solo pvp will be now that we lost the blazing spear cc? It would also be awesome if you could point out how worthless a disorient is (luminous shards) on a class that uses multiple dots to buff up (reflective light & entropy).

Thanks,

A biased/non-jealous solo magplar

Balamoor · February 2017

@Willienelson and others on this thread makes a lot of good points, I just want to add that I know for a fact ZoS does get feedback from some folks on the forum, the devs that showed up to Quakecon15 And Pax East 16 discussed decisions they made from forum feedback so it does happen.

But I do agree that Twitch and Youtube darlings get much more attention from ZoS than they should, Zos's participation at cons and who they send has been spotty, they don't do anything with much regularity Quakecon here Pax there no rhyme or reason and even then not everyone can attend a game con so it's really limited feedback. I'm not saying they need a Blizzcon type event although if Bethesda did something like that with them I have no doubt it would be packed. They do need more regularity and less Sycophancy to streamers.

You know Bioware had that guild summit for SWTOR that was a PR nightmare because only a couple elite guilds with recognition outside of SWTOR were invited to attend, SOE made the exact same mistake years earlier. I just think ZoS would be better served by using other PR methods than inviting streamers to the offices.

Seraphayel · February 2017

Again, what you need to keep in mind is the purpose of ZOS inviting players to give feedback. We will have a pretty huge rebalancing / revamping of class / skill lines with Morrowind. As I said some pages before, everything until Morrowind is meaningless now. There won't be any huge balance changes or adjustments within the next four months because we don't need them. The recent ESO is in its last stages, Homestead was the last bigger update for it until we start a new chapter.

New chapter means overall new class / skill design (hopefully). I'm pretty sure ZOS is working on the rebalancing of classes since a pretty long time now and we'll finally see it when Morrowind hits servers in June. They want feedback for their new class design and who could offer better, focused and "condensed" feedback than the most prominent ESO YouTubers? Reading hundreds of pages on the forums is a lot of work while listening to 10, 20 high skilled players is much easier and better for the overall work flow of the team and their desing choices.

I don't think it's about PvE vs. PvP, it's about how classes work, what they lack etc. Sure there might be some Cyrodiil-talk (performance, cheats, lags etc.) but I think most of it is focused on the classes. And I'm pretty sure that players like Alcast, Deltia, Sypher, Fengrush & Co. will give them many insights on what's working and what's not.

This is something for the future of ESO, for Morrowind, the "restart" of the game and I think ininviting the streamers was a good and necesarry, the right choice.

me_ming · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Hey man at least these streamers can spell ZeniMax right.

Oh darn. That completely refutes everything I said. Totes.
I didn't even bold the corporate name, or capitalize it in the middle. I'm so ashamed of myself.

Most popular streamers tend to play all classes, they tend to have a lot of play time in the game. They play the game at a very high level and know what they are talking about.

So why shouldn't zos bring in high end players for testing? Is that such a bad thing.

Also i capitalised ZeniMax in the middle because that is how it is.

Just because they play at a "very high level" doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. They know their playstyle, yes, but they don't know other people's playstyle. Their builds are primarily tailored for how they want to play THEIR game, not mine or anyone else's. I'm not saying that the "celebrities" (as mentioned in OP) are completely naive of the game, of course not. But they certainly do NOT represent the ESO community.

technohic · February 2017

Thinking about this and I feel like I have to say that I am pretty much a nobody yet I have gotten PMs before from Wrobel asking for some clarification in issues I kind of have mentioned in the forum. Recently it was something I was wrong on for what was causing what I had seen, but it does tell me they really are reading stuff. If they reply to everything, then they wouldn't have time to fix anything.

I just feel this is relevant as it seems the concern here is that they will listen to the more famous players and no one else just because they have them out to play test and I strongly feel that is a deductive fallacy. I can say in other games; they say they have done play tests with focus groups yet no one knows who those players are. I'd rather have these guys there that I know at least understand the mechanics and I am sure would counter each other personal agendas if they have any.

CyrusArya · February 2017

Frankly I think you're being naive and over reactionary. Just like in real like, conspiracy theorists in ESO are obnoxious and delusional.

The game is not balanced around the "1%" (lmao), ZOS does not ignore the sentiments of the majority. Thats just a narrow view based on absolutely nothing but your own biases. You have no clue how ZOS operates, so stop posting rambling theories on the premise that you do.

But the truth is, the vast majority of players have no clue what they are talking about whereas the people you're talking about know the game in and out. I'd much rather the game be balanced around the sentiments of a knowledgeable minority rather than an ignorant majority. That is, if this was a black and white mutually exclusive scenario where it was one or the other like you imply. Which its not.

Zenimax draws feedback from many channels, and balance the game accordingly. Thats all there is to it.

Stop being so butthurt and petty.

maboleth · February 2017

Whom to call then? Local Joe that claimed he's seen his friend telling him he watched someone play the game over his shoulder?

Some people are so negative and frustrated, it's absurd. Always pure blackness, half empty glasses and conspiracy theories.
In reality this is a great step in the right direction.

Balamoor · February 2017

maboleth wrote: »

Whom to call then? Local Joe that claimed he's seen his friend telling him he watched someone play the game over his shoulder?

Some people are so negative and frustrated, it's absurd. Always pure blackness, half empty glasses and conspiracy theories.
In reality this is a great step in the right direction.

I can think of five people that regularly visits the forums and offers insightful conversations who are neither uber fans or part of the hate machine. When Turbine was owned by MS they did this for AC and it worked out nicley.

I do agree with you about the negativity and blackness but really don't think that was Willies intention..could be wrong, hope not.

notimetocare · February 2017

All game companies have aleays done this because it is much more about advertising. I know its a very hard concept for most plebs, but as to actually gameplay the streamers and pros of a game are the best to ask. They have a livelyhood that depends on a games success and tjat is incredibly good for avoiding 'buff my class' mentality in suggestions. They mess up, they can lose a ton of money. Plebs? They are just players that can move on.

Elsonso · February 2017

Eremith wrote: »

That is an example practice. If developers gonna listen to a couple of top-players instead of forum community, then do not expect anything good.

That was an example of bad decisions by the developers, and it goes a lot further than who they chose to invite. In fact, I suggest that it would not have mattered who they invited. The results would have been just as wrong.

If a developer is doing play testing to validate and tune what they are working on, whatever balance of players that they think will further that analysis is good. The developer is not looking for direction as much as a different perspective, and they assemble the people they think can provide that. If the developer is doing focus groups because they have no idea what they are doing and require someone to lead them, then it does not matter how balanced the players in the group are.

In any case, it does not matter who ZOS invited to this soiree. If they know what they are doing, it does not matter because they invited the right people for what they need. If they have no idea what they are doing and are lost, it does not matter because no mix of people will be right.

If you believe the latter, then nothing that ZOS does will be right. If they invite the right people, they won't listen. If they invite the wrong people, they will listen too much.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

They could have involved more players for far less cost using teleconferencing, but that wouldn't serve the real purpose of this exercise. Unfortunately too long with ZOS is making me very cynical.

Actually, this does not sound like a round table. This sounds like a hands on play test of unreleased content intended to level-set the classes after the introduction of a new class. My guess is that ZOS wants to watch and observe, and ask why they did what they did when they debrief them. ZOS can learn a lot just from interacting with people who have not been exposed to this every day for the last few months.

Yes, there will be the pictures, and the happy smiling faces, for the PR people. Waste not, want not.

willlienellson wrote: »

I've played this game since the day it launched and I've seen great unknown players leave this game because player feedback was ignored for...months and years...while inexplicable decisions were made.

Not everyone who has an opinion on how ZOS should do something is correct, no matter how many people agree. I consider it a good sign that ZOS does their own thing, rather than whatever the popular vote on the forum suggests that they do. Ultimately, ZOS is the one who is responsible for making the game, for everyone, not just the people in the forum and not just the top players and streamers.

They should pick up ideas from the forum, and from top players, and from semi-pro gamers who stream all day, and even from roleplaying supercasuals that don't give a lick about balance. They should treat those as ideas, not marching orders, no matter how many people vote for it. The idea of a popular vote assumes that a group of people will be wiser than one person. Horse hockey. Both good and bad ideas can be voted up, and good ideas can get ignored because not everyone sees the good idea for what it is.

"Wisdom is not additive; its maximum is that of the wisest man in a given group."

The real question is whether there are one or more individuals playing this game that are wiser than the developers making a decision. Not one with more popular ideas, but one that is actually wiser. If one can be found, that is who ZOS needs to invite to parties. It does not matter whether they are a "top" player or streamer, whether they come from the forum, or whether they play as a supercasual. It does not matter whether they "represent" anyone.

I want ZOS to throw out the net to grab these people, then pick their brains until they are sucked dry. I don't want ZOS doing game design by popular vote.

Uviryth · February 2017

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

Shad0wfire99 · February 2017

lul

roigseguib16_ESO · February 2017

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

cpuScientist · February 2017

Uviryth wrote: »

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

Oh yeah for sure I mean those op builds he posts with no monster helms and easy to get sets. Like his recent Templar PvE build and VMA run where he uses such a gimped setup. Totes man that guy caters to the best of the best. Always talking about getting max DPS in trials and all that. Lololololol deltia is a guy who spends 35 minutes explaining every single detail that definitely every top player knows and most others know. His guides are literally there for new players and inexperienced players. I'm no big 'fan' but lol c'mon.

The issue the fake Willie Nelson has is simple, he doesn't want ZOS to take these players word and feedback over everyone else's and that's fair. He has a good point if that were the case but it's painstakingly obvious it's not. ZOS obviously isn't doing this.

ZOS brought them there to show off the new content so they could then see oh the game is going to still be profitable, and so they can hype up their fanbases. It's called advertisement.

Furthermore ZOS does need to take the advice of top players for PvE and PvP. And take the advice from the pts and from the forums. No reason not to take in as much advice as you can when making a decision.

[snip] If you had a life issue and it was posted on Facebook, and many people posted how they think you should handle it, but then a few names you recognize as being especially knowledgeable on the situation also offered help. You might say I've read through these comments and have some good suggestions let me see what these that I recognize have to think so you PM them here them out have a good discussion with the. Now you have all this feedback from knowledgeable people from the masses and can make an educated move going forward.

[edited to remove bait]

Shad0wfire99 · February 2017

Uviryth wrote: »

As much as I like watching Deltia, I actually have to agree with some of the OPs points.
Deltias content is catered to the Top 1% in organized, achievementdriven guilds and for people with much time and a lot of ressources. The 99% rest of us doesnt really get anything out of his videos except entertainment.

Deltia's content is much more noob-friendly than that. You stop getting anything out of his vids after you've been playing a while.

cpuScientist · February 2017

Now just because your advice or the advice of many is not immediately or ever taken I to account. Such as going back to AOE flames of oblivion doesn't mean they did not listen and consider. They just feel they know better cause they have testing facilities and are paid to do so. I don't agree with everything they do sure and will talk crap about some decisions. But if they listen to me I would probably make the game easier for whatever class I'm playing that week lol

Rikumaru · February 2017

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

cpuScientist · February 2017

Rikumaru wrote: »

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

Shhhhhh the obvious should not be pointed out....

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

And that's why pvp is in such a terrible state. Throw on a couple of proc sets and anyone can compete at a high level. No skill required.

Balamoor · February 2017

roigseguib16_ESO wrote: »

It's impossible to determine who is representative of the playerbase.
To be fair, the big chunk of ESO players are not hardcore PvPers nor dedicated raiders; they don't care wether viper procs for 5k or for 3k, nor if the duration of this skill or that DoT is 8 or 9 seconds. The majority of players of this game are casuals who care much more about the look of a map, the immersion of a dungeon or the accent of NPCs.
It's time we accept that this game doesn't live thanks to that 5-10% of really dedicated players but thanks to casuals.

Great point and I agree

And you know what? There isn't anything wrong with that. There are like a kagillion MMO's that are hardcore PVP, or Hardcore raiding...heck just look at the games in beta right now...you can't sling a dead rat without hitting three that are advertised as Hardcore PVP or a hearken back to the classic days of MMo's. Iv'e haven't seen seen a single TES RPG since Daggerfall that has been hardcore, if this is the game that causal players flock to (and it is) the l33t players should rejoice that they will be playing this instead of <insert Harcore MMO Here>

You know it's weird.....The in game community of ESO is so different from the forum community I have played on PC PS4 both NA and EU mega servers, and I watched my son play on XB1. ESO players are (and I'm not talking about random pug experiences they always suck) for the most part laid back, welcoming and non judgmental. ESO forum posters are snarky, harsh contemptuous and overbearing..... It's a messed up dichotomy. I also think it's why the devs have minimal interaction with forum goers. I would like to see the forums attract more positive interaction and honest constructive criticism, but League of Legends has a better chance to clean up it's image and that's sad.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

Rikumaru wrote: »

ZOS balances around the top 1%? Then tell me why they have nerfed solo play every patch from 1.7 (IC)? This game is getting more casual friendly which does not represent the top 1%.

Hell, they completely eliminated one of the classes from solo play with the blazing spear nerf. Play the way you want as long as it doesn't include solo pvp.

cpuScientist · February 2017

I love when people start throwing out percentages to fit their nonsense. Only like 5% do this and 10% use that.

You know who has the actual numbers and thus make the actual decisions... The devs.