WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Woeler · February 2017

They want balance feedback. You can't get that from people that have no clue how to play their class.

Or lets invite frag hardcasters and buff sorc even more.

Rjizzle09 · February 2017

Lmao i cant believe someone even said this lol ZOS definitley does not listen to streamers they definitely listen to casual players players WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY before they even listen to elite gamers. Zis cares about elite players like .00000000000000000001 percent like we barely matter at all

Korah_Eaglecry · February 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

Streamers do what they do to get sponsors, NOT to "represent the players" or some other starry-eyed nonsense.

I have never seen anything productive come of these meetings. If anything, the primary purpose it serves is to pacify the most vocal members of the community so people like Deltia will maybe not be so quick to dis things like casino crates next time, since they are being given special treatment. Less likely to bite the hand that feeds and all. So they throw 'em a bone.

People with legitimate constructive criticism are most often flatly ignored and frequently demonized and attacked by people on the forums thinking they are doing their part to "make positivism for the sake of it great again."

I have never met a company or community so allergic to constructive criticism as this one. Here it is treated like anything that isn't kitten memes and compliments is an evil, hostile attack against everything good and right in the world.

Sheesh...

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

Then when it comes time to talk to the people that are generating hype for the game who gets invited? The twitch crowd of course. Meh. More fuel for the meta-chasing homogenization of all classes and builds.

And ZOS STILL won't balance PVE and PVP separately (pure laziness) so every patch they further destroy unique play styles to counter the current PVP meta that people like Sypher and Fengrush and Deltia create.

Seems legit. Only invite echos to the chamber.

While I agree Ive also seen Online Communities be the complete opposite where any thing and everything is an open target for scrutiny. And if you dont side with those denouncing the company youre a fanboy and an apologist. Your voice is completely stamped out by those looking for something to be upset over and outraged by.

Personally I think the ESO Forums, while its members will always need to work towards bettering themselves and their communication skills, for the most part is tame compared to what Ive seen elsewhere. Go say something nice about Cryptic in the Star Trek Online forums. See how far that will get you. Youd think a community built up around a TV/Movie Franchise based on a Utopian future would be more excepting and willing to listen like their beloved Captain Picard. But Ive seen that forums go up in flames over a mild hint of a homosexual couple in game. One that wasnt even new to the game but had never been seen together before. Ive seen that forum go up like a nuke over a change to EXP because a known farming area was a more popular spot than the new content released that week.

Sure we get our occasional forum fire here and there when something shocking happens. But most of the time this place acts more like a release valve rather than a bombing range like other places.

DragonBound · February 2017

I do not care for most of them to be honest, if anything I learned playing mmorpgs is popular youtubers do not create the meta and can make mistakes and very well may not share there personal builds, in fact I do not think most do, I wouldn't lol but what I do like is video opinions on various skills not builds.

But that does not mean they do not have decent build guides.

cheemers · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

Hello everyone,

We recently noticed that there have been some naming and shaming, insulting comments and even mentions of real-world politics. For continuation of this discussion, please be sure to keep the Forum Rules in mind, and refrain from labeling anyone as exploiters or claiming that any one persons opinion is less than your own. I'm sure we're all here to help make the game a better place for all, no need to put another person down for wanting to help do so.

Thank you for understanding.

willlienellson · February 2017

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

No doubt, but that doesn't mean his experiences reflect the average pvp experience.

His pvp environment adjusts to him. People out of fear, respect, and collusion give him a pass. I've seen it many times. And not just him. And that "pass" is just one example.

His experience is hardly representative.

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

Dawnblade · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Also the sweetroll is the bestest of foods in the culinary arsenal of provisioners and a staple of the iconic foods associated with Elder Scrolls . Why on Nirn someone decided that was ok to be a blue food recipe is beyond me and needs to be adjusted to represent it's greatness by making the Sweetroll a purple 3 stat food with the max buffs available . This was one of the worst oversights since the beta and is needing to be corrected before Marrowind . Ok now I'm done an apologies for a little off topic .

hamgatan · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

i'm not entirely sure about that. i play on both PC and XB1. when i'm logged in with PC there seems to be a good population... but XB1 at the same time.. not so. id say its on par. even last night i would have thought with the PC NA/EU servers down for patch maintenance that there might have been a spike in console usage.. nope. i rode around greenshade doing my own thing and it was 30mins before i saw another player.

cheemers · February 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that PC is no more than a third of the total population, if that. Or do you need an add-on to help you with that?

I'm not going to rake through forum threads to satisfy your citation needs, but if you've spent any great time following ESO threads you'll have realised that multi-platform players have remarked on the relative scarcity of players on PC platforms compared to their console counterparts.

DragonBound · February 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Yes source please, on pc this is one of the most populated mmorpgs because it is one of the best new mmorpgs on the market.

Cadbury · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

That's why I like Deltia. He's neutral and knowledgeable. He has my vote of confidence.

Doctordarkspawn · February 2017

Precisely this.

Stop paying attention to the 1% with a camera. They do not represent us.

bitels · February 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

Dawnblade wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

Remember that PC players are a tiny tiny minority of the overall ESO population. For me and most other console players, the only relevance add ons have are to give me a chuckle when I read about PC players' woes with crap like miat's. But deltia's videos (to use your example) are platform agnostic and remain entertaining / relevant.

What percentage does 'tiny minority' represent? Also source please.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that PC is no more than a third of the total population, if that. Or do you need an add-on to help you with that?

I'm not going to rake through forum threads to satisfy your citation needs, but if you've spent any great time following ESO threads you'll have realised that multi-platform players have remarked on the relative scarcity of players on PC platforms compared to their console counterparts.

Well if you learn that on forum, based on at least few players feelings then its must to be true then. No doubt about it

Gallifreyy · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

No doubt, but that doesn't mean his experiences reflect the average pvp experience.

His pvp environment adjusts to him. People out of fear, respect, and collusion give him a pass. I've seen it many times. And not just him. And that "pass" is just one example.

His experience is hardly representative.

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

You seem to have very little knowledge of marketing as well as how MMO's and games work. To my knowledge ZOS has selected people in the ESO community that actually play the game that are influential to a majority of the player base that actually plays the game (These includes streamers & YouTube content creators) to promote their game and not some random casual that plays maybe 1 or 2 times a week that doesn't know the difference between classes that doesn't talk to many people but is extremely vocal on forums accusing people left, right and centre.

willlienellson · February 2017

bitels wrote: »

Also- it isnt like they wont give us all chance to test things on PTS before realese, so maybe just chill

I'm so glad you brought that up. This proves my point ENTIRELY.
They almost never listen to any feedback from the PTS testers. It's a running joke.

Consider the Homestead patch released today. They were told weeks ago that there was a lighting bug that didn't exist during the first PTS patch. So, they did something to create this bug.

It's been the subject of multiple threads for weeks with hundreds of comments on the forums.
Zos never even bothered to reply at all, even up to the time of me writing this post afaik.

That is to say nothing of actual feedback on features and balance. It's a joke, and I must assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you have no personal experience on the PTS, or you would have never used it as an example to refute me.

Players download 80GB of data to test patches on the PTS and are almost exclusively ignored. It's a GREAT EXAMPLE of exactly what I'm talking about when I contrast the way they treat average player feedback and consensus with the youtube/streamer/elite microcommunity to which they cater.

Ragnaroek93 · February 2017

Well I can understand why ZOS is doing this but I don't think that this is the solution. I just think that the game is way too complex to be balanced by opinions from players (even from good players) and players are always biased in some ways and do mistakes. Most people doesn't know me at all, but I do actually compete with top players in the game and I do happily admit that I can't balance the game in the current state (I think I'm better than most PvP players

). What we do need in my opinion is:
a) a concept which we balance the game around (concept will probably be battlegrounds)
b) empiric data from winrates of classes and builds
c) small patches every few weeks instead of these monsterchanges after several months
d) some kind of matchmaking to prevent normal players getting pubstomped by elite players

Furthermore I think that every opinion should matter in some way. I know that bad players can't talk about balance, but they can still give feedback about design choices from ZOS (for example AoE caps). I'm pretty sure that elite players would love to turn Cyrodiil into a pubstomping area where organized groups run over normal people all day long. This would indeed only help a small minority of players while making the experience of the majority of people worse.

I don't want to offend any streamers with this post, pretty much every streamer I've fought against on EU or NA (PTS) are great players without any doubts, that's just my personal opinion. I also don't know who exactly is invited at all, so I might be totally wrong as well.

willlienellson · February 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

The fact of that matter is they have Streamers, Youtubers, Hardcore PvE'rs like members of Hodor and Mundus, and PvPr's and other notable names. They know their names, we know their names, they're not just gonna ask random people who play their game to COME ON DOWN like this is the Price is Right or something.

Then why bother with the forums? Why even have them?
Why even have the feedback button in the game?

If you think I'm suggesting they should have selected different people to physically travel to Maryland to give feedback, you've wildly misunderstood my meaning. Nobody needed to go.

They have multiple mechanisms for feedback that they ALREADY IGNORE, while pandering to this elite community so they can get free advertising.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Let's be real about the relationship between these members and Zos. It is a symbiotic relationship where these people use the game to try to gain personal fame and in some cases income, and in exchange Zos gets free advertising in the process.

And that's 100% okay. But they don't need to pander to them. The symbiotic relationship would exist without it.

cpuScientist · February 2017

And they take our feedback and use it. Just because they don't agree with the feedback or put all of it into place doesn't mean they don't use it. They listened to mag sorcs this patch about burst. They listen, but many on these forums do not know anything about balance sooo.... Why can't they also bring streamers in aswell...

bitels · February 2017

@willlienellson
As an experience PTS tester you probably know that they in fact read forum feedback and change couple of things. I still would like see more changes, i still think that there are a lot of things that should be adressed but saying that ZoS dont listen to us at all is just not true.
I do belive that you can get better results if you first ask small group of experience players, which can see flaws at early stages of development and then listen to open feedback.

Best example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month

LegacyDM · February 2017

Did they invite fengrush?

BRogueNZ · February 2017

Happy they chose who they did. There's a few toxic little creeps around that have no place speaking for the rest of us.

MidknightWolf · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

ZOS Focuses way too much on the feedback of elite "celebrity" gamers while they roundly ignore player consensus and feedback on the forums as a matter of course. It's a problem.
Original Post Below:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Apparently, right now, a select elite of ESO youtubers like Sypher and Deltia, etc are meeting in person with Zenimax after being invited to the headquarters.

While these youtubers provide a service with their content, they hardly represent the ESO player base neither formally nor informally. They most often represent each other. They represent a micro-industry that operates along side ESO. If anything in-game, they represent a small minority of elite guilds that don't experience ESO like the rest of us and are not good representatives.

Please allow me to explain and provide examples.

PvP: I'm not suggesting any of the specific youtubers or "celebrity players" cheat (although some do and have been banned for it), but they also don't experience playing against cheating, or even against OP players, in the same way. Members of this class of ESO players avoid combat with each other. Many of the known cheaters in this game belong to the same guilds as these elite celebrity ESO players. That doesn't mean the celebrity youtubers are cheating, but it usually means the cheaters don't fight against them. This results in this group having an unrealistically casual viewpoint on cheating as something more benign than it is.

Exploits/Secrets: And exploiting game glitches is the cousin of cheating. Things that aren't working as intended, but are unlikely to get you banned, are passed around as open-secrets within the group and become staples of builds, but are not shared publicly because they don't want them fixed.

Here are two examples of fixed exploits that people weren't getting banned for, that I think I can provide since they no longer work.

1) You could double enchant Flanking Set jewelry with a total of 6 jewelry glyphs instead of 3.
2) You could glitch out Hist Bark set to give a dodge bonus even after you took the set off.

So while you were making the hard choices about how to enchant your jewelry, some players were not. When you were spending 3000 stamina to cast Shuffle, or wearing 5 pieces of Hist Bark, others were dodging with neither.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing these things, but I know the people who did do these things are embedded within that small community. So, at it's most benign, this colors the feedback and impressions of the players in that community which are passed on to Zos as apparently about the only feedback they are actually interested in.

Powercreep: Even if none of the youtube celebrity player cheat, or exploit, or take advantage of tricks....the higher ceiling of performance that is enjoyed on average in these communities is exacerbating the power creep problem in this game. Members of this sector of the community are always the first to say, "This game offers me no challenge. VMA is too easy. This is too easy. That is too easy".

Balancing: Their opinion of balance rarely reflects the community because they rarely face players utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness due to the fact that players within this class avoid fighting each other. This is the only game I've ever played where friends cannot play against each other. I've had several of the people I consider members of this niche group actually tell me point blank, "Friends don't kill each other in PvP. I'll give you a pass and you give me a pass. Stop fighting against me or I'm taking you off friends list".

Instead of two great players with great builds fighting each other and learning that certain abilities are indeed out of balance, they pass by each other, high-fiving one another as they farm the pugs from each others alliances and convince themselves that the game is perfectly balanced but THEY are individually "Gods of PvP".
These players don't have experiences in the game that would allow them to adequately represent the larger player base.

The resources were used to have this elite youtube gathering session at Zenimax would have been better spent reading the forums, selecting a few issues with broad community consensus, and then having an internal meeting on how to best address those concerns. But that's too much to hope for.

Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush. There are exceptions to every rule and I'm not trying to disparage anyone specifically. I don't blame anyone for accepting the invitation. This is a rebuke of how Zos operates.

I subscribe to Deltia's channel, I like his content, and his personality. But I don't like him as a representative of ESO players.

If you like their videos, that's fine. If you run their builds, that's great. If you think I'm full of crap, that's okay. And Zos can invite whoever they want on a sleepover.
But, if you've ever wondered why this game is balanced around the top 1% of players and the roleplayers being bought off with mount reskins with everyone in the middle ignored, THIS IS WHY.

[Edit to remove mention of moderator actions and political references]

Try not to hate. These streamers have a very good understanding on the math, algorithms, and mechanics behind each and every ability and class. They have a vast amount of knowledge. My good friend craz got hired to be a developer because of her math skills and abilities to revers engineer. These streamers are selected because by watching their streams, ZOS has realized that they have great knowledge of the game and know the ins and outs of PVP (the largest part of the game that needs most improvements.) And yes, also to say thanks to them for spending hours upon hours of their time free of charge promoting their game. Dont hate, try to understand.

hamgatan · February 2017

basing game direction off the opinions of streamers is a very. very. bad thing.

do the streamers know the game? yes. are they critical? yes. are they unbiased/non-jaded? definitely not.

Here's the real problem. the 90% of the gamer base who doesn't really go too deep into testing builds, different setups, don't spend time PTS'ing, or theorycrafting, look for guidance from those who have already done it. They look for other people's builds and emulate them. Who do they turn to for that advice? the people that garner the most hits in google and have the highest exposure saturation, and that's your usual suspects - Sypher, Fengrush, Deltia, Alcast, nifty2g etc.. (and im sad to say even that toolbag ZERGBAD)

And that.. is there the FOTM builds are spawning from. Also whatever they say affects the game economy drastically. As they spawn their builds out, suddenly the gear they run becomes the meta and prices skyrocket (Uhh Plague Doctor + Green Pact anyone?). Thank god BSW is BoP right now or it'd be 500k for a Sharpened Sword too.

Everyone's been guilty of it at some point. The problem is that these builds are almost always situational and what works best for THAT streamer. It is not neccessarily the best setup for individual users play styles. Heck I've given tons of builds a go, some don't work for me.. and some have been absolute killer with a few personalised modifications.

Example - as much as i love @Alcast - he cracks me up with his vernacular, I have to be wary of his builds lately because they seem to be more oriented toward situations where you are in Trials where you have an expectation of Raid buffs to be up 100% of the time. These builds cannot be translated to a context like vMA, you just insta-die if you try... and for the most part, Casuals will get frustrated because they want a build that does everything and these builds will fail them time after time because they miss all the 'assumed knowledge' contained within these build videos. They want the abridged, concentrated version.

In real life, the point of 'focus groups' is to get a good cross section of your entire market segmentation and potential. Using streamers for that is not an accurate cross-section and so any developments will be based on the jaded viewpoints of the 'elite' rather than the other 90% of the population.

By not inviting input from the other 90% and only inviting the Streamers you are effectively putting them on a pedestal and giving them 'authority' which once again will lead to more of the above frustration from the 90% thinking that the viewpoints of the streamers are their bible that they should follow for their FOTM builds rather than encouraging people to experiment with different combinations 'play how they want'..

Appreciate what they do for the game, but I don't appreciate the god-like status you're conveying on them because its ruining it for the other 90%.

Oompuh · February 2017

Show me Gilliam's Stream, Show me Paulington's Stream, Show me the hodor member's twitch accounts who went to ZOS? Oh wait, Sypher and Fengrush arent everyone who went? Thats so weird... I thought this was a streamer convention?

jpeter88 · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

No doubt, but that doesn't mean his experiences reflect the average pvp experience.

His pvp environment adjusts to him. People out of fear, respect, and collusion give him a pass. I've seen it many times. And not just him. And that "pass" is just one example.

His experience is hardly representative.

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

Im not saying its because he is good at pvp.........i said he knows pvp.......if you LISTEN to some of his streams he knows every classes strong and weak points, he knows what classes NEED instead of 9/10 people on here whining about stuff they WANT. i could care less if he is a good player or not, its the fact that he knows the pvp environment just as i would say alcast is one of the best that could bring in for PVE balance. These people explain WHY x skill needs changing and how it wont make it to op. There are to many forum posters that are like "reflective wings sucks, u suck zos, wing should be able to block 49 projectiles, heal you for 10k a second for 10 seconds and it should reflect every kind of damage in the game while insta killing anyone hit by projectile.

S1ipperyJim · February 2017

MidknightWolf wrote: »

free of charge

lol

willlienellson · February 2017

Cadbury wrote: »

Eh, it's just like politics.
The representatives get appointed

Ummmm...WUT?

willlienellson · February 2017

Gallifreyy wrote: »

You seem to have very little knowledge of marketing as well as how MMO's and games work. To my knowledge ZOS has selected people in the ESO community that actually play the game that are influential to a majority of the player base that actually plays the game (These includes streamers & YouTube content creators) to promote their game and not some random casual that plays maybe 1 or 2 times a week that doesn't know the difference between classes that doesn't talk to many people but is extremely vocal on forums accusing people left, right and centre.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn I thought you might get a chuckle from this.

@Gallifreyy I assure you I know a little bit about marketing and business enough to say that the symbiotic relationship between the streamers and Zos would exist without Zos pandering to them and giving them ANY influence in balancing decisions.