Why is every Magicka DPS mostly the same?

Seraphayel · February 2017

Can someone tell me why nearly all Magicka builds are 50-60% the same even with different classes? I was looking for builds and build ideas in the last weeks and one thing really baffled me: 9/10 builds are literally the same. Those builds follow the same pattern, same skills, same weapon choices, same set choices - not even the class matters anymore. I know this is called "meta" but isn't this a huge problem in ESO?

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Mundus Stone: The Thief

Weapons: Fire Staff + Lightning / Restoration Staff

Sets: Ilambris, Grothdarr, Valkyn Skoria, Burning Spellweave,

Skills:

One spammable skill: Force Pulse or class spammable (Funnel Health, Dark Flare, Lava Lash)
Two AoE ground target skills: Wall of Elements + class AoE (Eruption, Twisting Path, Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spear)
Flex slot (mostly DoTs or proc abilities): Merciless Resolve, Crystal Fragments, Reflective Light, Burning Embers
Finisher: Impale, Mage's Wrath, Radiant Destruction
Crit / Magicka boost: Inner Light and / or class skills (Inferno, Bound Aegis)
Ultimate: Meteor / Elemental Rage

+ healing abilities / shields on the off bar (Healing Ward, Combat Prayer, Dampen Magic, Hardened Ward etc.)

_____________________________

Isn't this super boring? In the end every class has the exact same playstyle for Magicka DPS (in PvE). There is literally no difference. Throw your DoTs and keep spamming your fillers, throw an ultimate, rinse and repeat. It doesn't matter if you're a Sorcerer, Templar, Dragon Knight or Nightblade. You're doing the same rotation with mostly the same skills on all of them. If you arrange your skills right you could play all four classes with eyes closed due to their similarities when it comes to endgame PvE builds.

I know players tend to have the "best" builds for "best" damage but why is it so limited in ESO? This game was advertised as "play how you want" (yes, we know that was never a thing really) but since 12 (?) months or so Magicka DPS has become flat and boring because you literally have 4-5 "must have" skills or items, maybe more.

Why isn't Zenimax adressing this problem and trying to fix this? I mean, do all of you want to play the same as every other Magicka DPS out there? I don't know how it is for Stamina, maybe the same, maybe worse, but as a Magicka DPS I feel limited by the game because it forces me to use skills or items I don't really want to use.

This might be a rant thread for many players out there but I just wanted to discuss this issue. I want your opinion and I really would like to enforce a discussion about this topic (feel free to open up a Stamina thread as well if you think it's necessary). There are soooooooo many skills in game but players only use 20-30% because the rest of them is bad, very bad, terribad etc. - ZOS tries to "fix" these problems, take Scalding Rune as an example. They buffed the DoT damage by 30% in Homestead but... 30% of nothing is still nothing. So why are they ignoring so many skills while they totally overpower others (e.g. Puncturing Sweep - super cheap, AoE, amazing damage plus additional healing - this skill combines all of what's wrong with the balancing in this game).

So... what do you think?

Do you like how it is? Do you think ZOS needs to revaluate many skills? Do you feel a bit bored by the limitations?

OutLaw_Nynx · February 2017

Have you seen stam builds?

Stillian · February 2017

If you actually played it, it feels different to play magic classes. In terms of equipment, its as flexible as it was before, there are few sets sets to choose dependant on class (not every templar wants to run BSW because they dont want to use fire skills to proc bsw on execute phase for example), monster sets are still different, and they are also different dependant on class. Aether\moondancer choise. Maelstrom weapons - to use or not. Dual wielding - to use or not. Not saying that range and melee gameplay is different.
What is the same though - Rapid Strikes + Dot, rapid strikes + trap, endless hail, poison injection, rapid strikes and repeat

Wollust · February 2017

Don't try out stam builds then if you think magicka is the same already

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2017

Agreed it is much worse for stam. But they are pushing mag builds that way as well. It is their way of balancing. If everyone basically does the same thing, it becomes very easy to balance.

KochDerDamonen · February 2017

All dps builds amount to DoT/spammable/other DoT, with a buff spell or two tossed in there depending on class/gear and potion availability.

Actually doing it feels much more complex than explaining it in that way

Seraphayel · February 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Have you seen stam builds?

Did you read my post? I mentioned above that I don't know anything about Stamina builds and already said it might be worse and if necessary you can start another thread focusing on Stamina.

Seraphayel · February 2017

Stillian wrote: »

If you actually played it, it feels different to play magic classes.

I don't think so. Tried this with every class. The only difference are the flashy lights, they're either black, yellow, purple or red. In the end it's still the same feeling for all of them PvE-wise.

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

Can someone tell me why nearly all Magicka builds are 50-60% the same even with different classes? I was looking for builds and build ideas in the last weeks and one thing really baffled me: 9/10 builds are literally the same. Those builds follow the same pattern, same skills, same weapon choices, same set choices - not even the class matters anymore. I know this is called "meta" but isn't this a huge problem in ESO?

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Mundus Stone: The Shadow

Weapons: Fire Staff + Lightning / Restoration Staff

Sets: Ilambris, Grothdarr, Valkyn Skoria, Burning Spellweave,

Skills:

One spammable skill: Force Pulse or class spammable (Funnel Health, Dark Flare, Lava Lash)
Two AoE ground target skills: Wall of Elements + class AoE (Eruption, Twisting Path, Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spear)
Flex slot (mostly DoTs or proc abilities): Merciless Resolve, Crystal Fragments, Reflective Light, Burning Embers
Finisher: Impale, Mage's Wrath, Radiant Destruction
Crit / Magicka boost: Inner Light and / or class skills (Inferno, Bound Aegis)
Ultimate: Meteor / Elemental Rage

+ healing abilities / shields on the off bar (Healing Ward, Combat Prayer, Dampen Magic, Hardened Ward etc.)

_____________________________

Isn't this super boring? In the end every class has the exact same playstyle for Magicka DPS (in PvE). There is literally no difference. Throw your DoTs and keep spamming your fillers, throw an ultimate, rinse and repeat. It doesn't matter if you're a Sorcerer, Templar, Dragon Knight or Nightblade. You're doing the same rotation with mostly the same skills on all of them. If you arrange your skills right you could play all four classes with eyes closed due to their similarities when it comes to endgame PvE builds.

I know players tend to have the "best" builds for "best" damage but why is it so limited in ESO? This game was advertised as "play how you want" (yes, we know that was never a thing really) but since 12 (?) months or so Magicka DPS has become flat and boring because you literally have 4-5 "must have" skills or items, maybe more.

Why isn't Zenimax adressing this problem and trying to fix this? I mean, do all of you want to play the same as every other Magicka DPS out there? I don't know how it is for Stamina, maybe the same, maybe worse, but as a Magicka DPS I feel limited by the game because it forces me to use skills or items I don't really want to use.

This might be a rant thread for many players out there but I just wanted to discuss this issue. I want your opinion and I really would like to enforce a discussion about this topic (feel free to open up a Stamina thread as well if you think it's necessary). There are soooooooo many skills in game but players only use 20-30% because the rest of them is bad, very bad, terribad etc. - ZOS tries to "fix" these problems, take Scalding Rune as an example. They buffed the DoT damage by 30% in Homestead but... 30% of nothing is still nothing. So why are they ignoring so many skills while they totally overpower others (e.g. Puncturing Sweep - super cheap, AoE, amazing damage plus additional healing - this skill combines all of what's wrong with the balancing in this game).

So... what do you think?

Do you like how it is? Do you think ZOS needs to revaluate many skills? Do you feel a bit bored by the limitations?

I think or mundus stone you meant to put Thief...magicka has so much more variation than stam its not even a comparison.
1. Magicka sorcerer's rotation will be drastically different from a MagNB, Templar and DK.
2. Some classes use staves some use swords.
3. Some use fire staves, some lightning. With different builds using different types of staves mainbar.
4. Some classes/builds have you satying on yoir front bar for 15 seconds, others for 6 seconds.
5. Some mainbar vMA staves, some do not.

I really dont understand or agree with your points. Magicka is extremely diverse and fun to play.

idk · February 2017

@Seraphayel

I suggest you read your own OP and you will see your argument seems to indicate the variety out there vs homogeneity.

3 monster helms listed.
4 spamables listed (you missed on, puncturing sweeps which makes 5)
Noted every class as their own ground based targeted skills.
Noted each class has their own dot/proc attack.
Noted 3 classes have their own execute
Noted different ultimates (there are actually 3 on live since DK standard is BiS for them)

This does not include listing the wrong mundus stone since Thief is preferred.

So, in the end you pointed out how each class has unique builds rather than any homogenization.

However, what is the same, Inner light is not a class skill and is a must for DPS due to the 7% max magika it delivers. Blockade is one of the best dots in the game which is why it is used.

Beyond that builds for each class are fairly unique.

Seraphayel · February 2017

You are right, I meant a different Mundus Stone and mixed up their names.

But Giles, what's your point? Just because the skills have different animations and names it is different in the end when Liquid Lightning, Eruption, Blazing Spear do exactly the same? It follows the same pattern. That's my point. In the end it is still the same and as I said, if you arrange your bars all classes are nearly identical in their PvE playstyle. What exactly is unique? The color of your damage?

Dragonnord · February 2017

Don't go to Cyrodiil then. It feels like you are fighting the same guys all the time (everyone using the same builds).

Callous2208 · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

You are right, I meant a different Mundus Stone and mixed up their names.

But Giles, what's your point? Just because the skills have different animations and names it is different in the end when Liquid Lightning, Eruption, Blazing Spear do exactly the same? It follows the same pattern. That's my point. In the end it is still the same and as I said, if you arrange your bars all classes are nearly identical in their PvE playstyle.

So you're saying that people have the ability to arrange their bars the same way? Good point.

idk · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

You are right, I meant a different Mundus Stone and mixed up their names.

But Giles, what's your point? Just because the skills have different animations and names it is different in the end when Liquid Lightning, Eruption, Blazing Spear do exactly the same? That's my point. In the end it is still the same and as I said, if you arrange your bars all class are nearly identical in their PvE playstyle.

They do not. That is my point.

Just like Force Pulse, Funnel Health, Dark Flare, Lava Lash and Puncturing Sweeps are not the same and work very differently. unless one wants to go to an extreme just because they do damage and are often spammed a few times in a rotation.

It is really a stretch to say Force Pulse and Dark Flare are the same. That is probably the best example to demonstrate how wrong you are.

People can make up whatever they want to fit their "thoughts". It does not make it reality.

srfrogg23 · February 2017

2 things:

1: it's efficient, so people gravitate toward it.

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

LadyLavina · February 2017

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idk · February 2017

LadyLavina wrote: »

LOL, so true.

Cadbury · February 2017

It's all numbers. In the end, all of us are just trying to subtract our opponent's numbers to zero.

idk · February 2017

Cadbury wrote: »

It's all numbers. In the end, all of us are just trying to subtract our opponent's numbers to zero.

My guess is OP has not played different classes. None feel the same. DK the most unique followed by Templar. Most similar is Sorc and NB but they are still different.

Still, @LadyLavina sums it up best.

Edziu · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Most Stamina builds follow this scheme

Seraphayel wrote: »

Mundus Stone: The Shadow

also shadow

Seraphayel wrote: »

Weapons: Fire Staff + Lightning / Restoration Staff

dual daggers/dagger with axe and bow

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sets: Ilambris, Grothdarr, Valkyn Skoria, Burning Spellweave,

kragh, TBS, NMG, VO/alkosh if on trial

Seraphayel wrote: »

Skills:

Seraphayel wrote: »

One spammable skill: Force Pulse or class spammable (Funnel Health, Dark Flare, Lava Lash)

rapid strikes, doesnt matter which class if maelstrom duals (optionally surpise attack or jabs but also rarely seen)

Seraphayel wrote: »

Two AoE ground target skills: Wall of Elements + class AoE (Eruption, Twisting Path, Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spear)

endless hail and? hurricane from sorc, thats all

Seraphayel wrote: »

Flex slot (mostly DoTs or proc abilities): Merciless Resolve, Crystal Fragments, Reflective Light, Burning Embers

rearming trap, poison injection under 50% boss health and only on dk additional venomous claw with noxious breath, no more skills

Seraphayel wrote: »

Finisher: Impale, Mage's Wrath, Radiant Destruction

*cough*only stamblade have finisher *cough*

Seraphayel wrote: »

Crit / Magicka boost: Inner Light and / or class skills (Inferno, Bound Aegis)

evil hunter(/flames of oblivion for dk) or only on sorc additional bound armraments

Seraphayel wrote: »

Ultimate: Meteor / Elemental Rage

rend or standard of might for only dk

Seraphayel wrote: »

+ healing abilities / shields on the off bar (Healing Ward, Combat Prayer, Dampen Magic, Hardened Ward etc.)

*cough* only vigor *cough*...optionally deadly cloak but its only on aue attacks defense so viable only on trials and also not for every attack

_____________________________

Isn't this super boring?

So... what do you think?

Izaki · February 2017

Dark Flare? For real? People actually use that skill instead of Puncturing Sweeps? Seems like a DPS loss to me.

Btw OP, it seems to me you haven't played these classes. Sure the bar set up and gear might be similar, but the feel of each class is very different. If you're good on sorc, that doesn't make you good on DK. Its not nearly as simple as that.

Stamina classes though? Hell yeah, its the exact same thing, stamina NBs being kinda the exception cause they have an execute.

OrphanHelgen · February 2017

Actually, stamina are more equal then magicka. Atleast for pve.

idk · February 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Dark Flare? For real? People actually use that skill instead of Puncturing Sweeps? Seems like a DPS loss to me.

Btw OP, it seems to me you haven't played these classes. Sure the bar set up and gear might be similar, but the feel of each class is very different. If you're good on sorc, that doesn't make you good on DK. Its not nearly as simple as that.

Stamina classes though? Hell yeah, its the exact same thing, stamina NBs being kinda the exception cause they have an execute.

Um, yea, outside of a good templar that needs to go ranged for one fight (vMoL Forgotten) there are some who dark flare it up as their main spam. Never understood since obvious loss of DPS and loss of great survival increase. But yea.

Izaki · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Dark Flare? For real? People actually use that skill instead of Puncturing Sweeps? Seems like a DPS loss to me.

Btw OP, it seems to me you haven't played these classes. Sure the bar set up and gear might be similar, but the feel of each class is very different. If you're good on sorc, that doesn't make you good on DK. Its not nearly as simple as that.

Stamina classes though? Hell yeah, its the exact same thing, stamina NBs being kinda the exception cause they have an execute.

Um, yea, outside of a good templar that needs to go ranged for one fight (vMoL Forgotten) there are some who dark flare it up as their main spam. Never understood since obvious loss of DPS and loss of great survival increase. But yea.

Force Pulse would do more DPS though, would it not? Considering it doesn't have a cast time.

idk · February 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Dark Flare? For real? People actually use that skill instead of Puncturing Sweeps? Seems like a DPS loss to me.

Btw OP, it seems to me you haven't played these classes. Sure the bar set up and gear might be similar, but the feel of each class is very different. If you're good on sorc, that doesn't make you good on DK. Its not nearly as simple as that.

Stamina classes though? Hell yeah, its the exact same thing, stamina NBs being kinda the exception cause they have an execute.

Um, yea, outside of a good templar that needs to go ranged for one fight (vMoL Forgotten) there are some who dark flare it up as their main spam. Never understood since obvious loss of DPS and loss of great survival increase. But yea.

Force Pulse would do more DPS though, would it not? Considering it doesn't have a cast time.

Probably not. On paper Dark Flare performs better than FP but the good melee builds outperform both by a large margin.

Astanphaeus · February 2017

You're playing PvE, of course it is cookie cutter boringness.

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

You are right, I meant a different Mundus Stone and mixed up their names.

But Giles, what's your point? Just because the skills have different animations and names it is different in the end when Liquid Lightning, Eruption, Blazing Spear do exactly the same? It follows the same pattern. That's my point. In the end it is still the same and as I said, if you arrange your bars all classes are nearly identical in their PvE playstyle. What exactly is unique? The color of your damage?

Thats like saying well life sucks, I mean we are born we live and then we die...its all the same......thats kind of how it all works...not sure what kind of a system youre envisioning...

Faulgor · February 2017

Yeah they are all very similar. Maybe they feel diverse enough to some within the context of ESO, and especially compared to stamina builds, but compared to other games there is not a whole lot of class diversity. I'm curious what Warden will add to the mix.

Grabmoore · February 2017

Astanphaeus wrote: »

You're playing PvE, of course it is cookie cutter boringness.

Right.

Not to confuse with PvP: no skill proc cheese boringness

Mojmir · February 2017

What do you expect with only 4 classes,a handful of viable armor sets and proctato

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

Astanphaeus wrote: »

You're playing PvE, of course it is cookie cutter boringness.

And of course there are no cookie-cutter PvP build are there?

Oh, wait....

All The Best