Proposal: Why proc sets should use resources i.e stam and magicka.

mook-eb16_ESO · February 2017

The best thing Zenimax could would to make these proc sets use resources. Why, because technically they are free damage. If you are wearing 3 of these sets there is no cost or extra cost which means that you can stack damage stats max stam magicka, and weapon and spell damage which means the procs hit even harder. By implementing resource cost for the procs it would dissuade players from wearing 3 sets because they would be out of resources more quickly. Zenimax had the correct idea with molag kena (although not proc really) you gained extra damage but you paid for it. Zenimax would then have no need to remove the crits in the next patch which will do little to readdress the balance in pvp due the prevalence of wearing impen.
Anyway just idea I didn't know if it had been suggested.

Berenhir · February 2017

Why do people always think that critical hits are completely mitigated by wearing 5-7 impen? A good crit build does at least 30-45% more damage with a critical hit against someone in full impen.

Most builds in Cyrodiil tend to lower the crit damage multiplicator by around 30%, meaning an average crit still hitting for 20% to 60% more damage.

patrykplawskib16_ESO · February 2017

This is just horrible, Magika DK PvE already suffers from PvE sustain issues and so do other classes and builds. I don't know what you have exactly against 3 sets on a character but if this is from a PvP prospective please delete this thread.

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

It could be an interesting idea, but I think they could have done something different with it.

The way I see it, there are three primary problems with proc sets right now:

Many proc sets are individually overtuned, providing too much burst damage, too much overall damage, too much AoE potential, or a combination of those. The biggest culprits overall are Velidreth, Selene, Grothdarr, Ilambris, Viper, and Widowmaker, in no particular order.
Proc set stacking allows them to define builds, rather than supplement them. Chaining procs is far too rewarding and has far too few drawbacks.
Proc sets scaling off of solely crit and CP shoehorns players into building crit to make the most of their proc sets.

While resource costs would fix the second problem, they wouldn't really touch on the first or third problem at all. I think there needs to be a more thorough solution, rather than swinging an axe at all of them and calling it good.

Rebalance damage values of proc sets across the board. The exact damage values are open to scrutiny, but the overall damage of proc sets on a high-end build should be lower than it is now. Additionally, weak sets such as Ashen Grip should be brought up to be a reasonable competitor with sets like Red Mountain.
In addition to crit, proc sets should scale off of maximum Magicka/Stamina and Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, whichever is higher. In compensation, the damage values of proc sets should be lowered more or less across the board. That way, stacking sets causes each set to be far weaker; a Velidreth tooltip might start at 8k with high-end DPS sets, but adding Viper might drop it down to 6k, and adding Widowmaker would drop it further.
Global 2 second cooldown to all damage procs.

I think this would be a far more elegant solution. It would make balancing stats far more important to proc set users and add meaningful drawbacks to stacking sets, all while keeping them relevant. Grothdarr and Ilambris wouldn't absolutely disintegrate mobs, Viper+Velidreth builds wouldn't vaporize players, and hopefully proc sets would be a more meaningful choice to run rather than being a no-brainer.

Resource costs could be a good idea, but I don't think it goes far enough to solving the problem. It doesn't feel like a final solution, because it does nothing to address the imbalance between individual proc sets, nor does it limit their burst potential at all. Gankers would still be able to chain proc sets to instagib their victims. The only difference it would really make for gankers is that they'd have an even harder time in a sustained fight, which isn't that much of a drawback since the goal of ganking is to avoid fighting a sustained battle in the first place.

Rohaus · February 2017

I hate proc sets just like everyone else does but honestly, until weapon skills are revisited and or new weapon skills are introduced with more damage included, then a lot of folks are going to rely on proc sets to compensate for overall weak damage from skills and abilities...

If healing wasn't so damn strong, then I'd be arguing differently.

g00gleyes · February 2017

along with @EldritchPenguin 's idea of a global cd, making procs cost stuff seems reasonable.

Arthg · February 2017

Or you could have a slide bar whereby increasing the proc chance would cost you an increasing amount of stam or magicka.

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

Rohaus wrote: »

I hate proc sets just like everyone else does but honestly, until weapon skills are revisited and or new weapon skills are introduced with more damage included, then a lot of folks are going to rely on proc sets to compensate for overall weak damage from skills and abilities...

If healing wasn't so damn strong, then I'd be arguing differently.

That's a very good point as well. Yo-yo health bars are really fun in PvE, since you're just constantly playing on the edge of your seat, something really needs to be done with them in PvP. Damage and healing need to be a lot more consistent in PvP. If you wipe out 80% of someone else's health, it should be hard for them to recover from that, but right now, they just block-cast BoL/Vigor and get back to full. Add CDB from MagDK's to that list next patch.

STEVIL · February 2017

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

It could be an interesting idea, but I think they could have done something different with it.

The way I see it, there are three primary problems with proc sets right now:
Many proc sets are individually overtuned, providing too much burst damage, too much overall damage, too much AoE potential, or a combination of those. The biggest culprits overall are Velidreth, Selene, Grothdarr, Ilambris, Viper, and Widowmaker, in no particular order.

Proc set stacking allows them to define builds, rather than supplement them. Chaining procs is far too rewarding and has far too few drawbacks.

Proc sets scaling off of solely crit and CP shoehorns players into building crit to make the most of their proc sets.

While resource costs would fix the second problem, they wouldn't really touch on the first or third problem at all. I think there needs to be a more thorough solution, rather than swinging an axe at all of them and calling it good.
Rebalance damage values of proc sets across the board. The exact damage values are open to scrutiny, but the overall damage of proc sets on a high-end build should be lower than it is now. Additionally, weak sets such as Ashen Grip should be brought up to be a reasonable competitor with sets like Red Mountain.

In addition to crit, proc sets should scale off of maximum Magicka/Stamina and Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, whichever is higher. In compensation, the damage values of proc sets should be lowered more or less across the board. That way, stacking sets causes each set to be far weaker; a Velidreth tooltip might start at 8k with high-end DPS sets, but adding Viper might drop it down to 6k, and adding Widowmaker would drop it further.

Global 2 second cooldown to all damage procs.

I think this would be a far more elegant solution. It would make balancing stats far more important to proc set users and add meaningful drawbacks to stacking sets, all while keeping them relevant. Grothdarr and Ilambris wouldn't absolutely disintegrate mobs, Viper+Velidreth builds wouldn't vaporize players, and hopefully proc sets would be a more meaningful choice to run rather than being a no-brainer.

Resource costs could be a good idea, but I don't think it goes far enough to solving the problem. It doesn't feel like a final solution, because it does nothing to address the imbalance between individual proc sets, nor does it limit their burst potential at all. Gankers would still be able to chain proc sets to instagib their victims. The only difference it would really make for gankers is that they'd have an even harder time in a sustained fight, which isn't that much of a drawback since the goal of ganking is to avoid fighting a sustained battle in the first place.

The catch is many of the proc sets are only viable in a burst context.

VIPER sustained dps is not at top end. its burst is where its money is at. if you tune all these down so the burst is lesseneed, viper doesn't become balanced it becomes obsolete.

i dont believe there is a credible, serious objection to a build made for top end burst in medium armor with surprise achieving killer burst potential but suffering from the fragility and the long run DPS it would. .

i think there is justifiable objection when it can be done by someone in a hvy armor tanky sort of build because the "burst" comes just from gear quality letting a lot go into health.