What has ZOS said about the DLC being called an Expansion to charge players?

MEBengalsFan2001 · February 2017

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious what @ZOS_RichLambert or @ZOS_GinaBruno have to say about this. I'm seeing a lot of angry discussions about the DLC being called an Expansion, and thus they aren't obligated to share it with subscribers, instead everyone has to buy it.

So people are angry about subscribing for years under the impression they will have access to content released in the future and then this expansion is an exception. Why should I continue subbing and supporting Zos if this is the case? What was your thinking behind making this decision? I'm want to know before I jump on the #hatetrain and uninstall.

PS: Yes I will send you guys my stuff if I uninstall.

Same happens in WOW, FF, and other games where the devs release new areas that are large enough to charge as an expansion. When this happens, the base game is included for new players buying into the game and ESO has the same setup, buy the game get the expansion and the base or just buy the upgrade.

I like what they are doing.

raglau · February 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

Not sure about the 4 DLC per year statement either. It could be 4 updates per year that includes free ones like 1T and Homestead.

1t and Homestead are not DLCs. They are changes to the base game. Think of it like this, if you go out and buy the base game from a shop today (well ok, after Homestead is released *g*), would you also need to download additional content to get access to 1T and Homestead?

Again if that's the only reason you sub then you can call it off anytime.

This is very true. However, what if we have been subbed for the past 6 months without receiving the 2 promised quarterly DLCs? Do we not have a right to be a little upset about that? We can indeed unsub, but we won't be getting our money back.

^^ That's the issue for me, they've not delivered any DLC for quite some time, the first time they do, they reclassify it to avoid having to give it to sub holders. Most certainly when I took out my sub the wording was very clear that it included 'access to all downloadable content' (ZOS' words).

For now, I'm going to watch this unfold, I've subbed since release - albeit with a break - but I'm not angry at this point because it's hard for me to know the context just from watching ESO Live. If this is a big uplift to the game and content, I'd possibly accept it's an expansion and pay as it's not a lot of money and I am a pragmatic person, but then there is a principle at stake here.

One question, do other MMOs use this model of voluntary sub plus paid expacs? Did Trion/Rift do this, I can't remember now?

I am quite certain that if someone in the EU/UK challenged this, ZOS would come unstuck here. I am not going to detail why here because I don't intend to do ZOS' job for them ;-), but suffice to say myself and a lawyer challenged Frontier Developments and got refunds for hundreds of Elite Dangerous Kickstarter Backers when FD dropped Offline Mode. Anyone selling to an EU buyer is bound by EU law and ZOS do have an EU legal entity that can be challenged: ZeniMax Online Ireland Ltd., Unit 2 Galway West Business Park, Western Distributor Road, Rahoon, Galway, Co. Galway, Ireland.

So, having taken on a big software company and won before, my message to anyone in the EU thinking they do want to challenge ZOS is:

1 - Ignore the DLC/Expansion matter, it's meaningless in EU law, it's all digital content.
2 - Be patient and watch this unfold and gather everything. Screenshot all ZOS comms, all AMAs, keep all your emails from ZOS, document ESO Live etc. One reason we beat Frontier so easily is because we had hundreds of people who had diligently recorded everything and whilst FD tried to amend their website later, we had it all recorded historically and could prove terms that existed at the time in question.
3 - Ignore anything in a EULA that implies ZOS can do what they like, EULAs have no meaning in the EU as it is impossible to sign away your rights or degrade your position under EU law.
4 - Collaborate with other people to present a unified case. We don't have class actions suits in the EU, so we have to form a united front ourselves.

EDIT: I think I should add here I'm not suggesting people do take on ZOS, it was quite time consuming for me with Frontier Devs, even though they folded quite fast due to the strength of our case. It was the right thing to do however, and many Kickstarter backers had invested hundreds and in one case, thousands, of ££. Here we're talking about a very small cost. But, principles are principles, sometimes you just have to hold companies to account. All cases are different however... DYOR as they say!

@Pibbles does 1) include only additional digital content that has to be paid for? If not, wouldn't the so called "base game patches" (1T, Housing) fall into the "digital content" as well?
And how does this goes with the option to buy a physical copy of the additional content (Morrowind, Gold Edition)?

I'm really curiouse about that. Even if I think it's a bit over the top that this discussion has come to this point.

Hi @Chilly-McFreeze, apologies for the delay I've been away.

Yes, in the eyes of the law (UK & EU) anything downloaded is digital content, DVD/CD/Bluray is 'goods' and was already covered by the Sale of Goods Act, which is now called the Consumer Rights Act (in the UK, but EU is the same as we get our consumer laws from there), and covers digital content in the same way. Interestingly, 'free' digital content comes with the same protections as paid, so if 'free' breaks something, it can be a breach of contract due to 'not fit for purpose' type stuff.

We've been talking about this in another thread called 'the fine print' (can't find it now), it's kind of a fun conversation, nothing heavy, we're theorising more than anything, and what we feel it turns on is how the ESO+ contract is renewed each sub period and if ZOS formally notify us in the renewal terms that the 'expacs' are not included in ESO+. If they do this, then we have notice and can choose not buy the sub anymore and don't suffer a 'loss'. If they do not do that, it's questionable because most people do not read the forum so would be unware of a new constraint being placed upon their sub, and you cannot change a contract without agreement from both parties, that's when ZOS would stand to get into trouble IMO, if someone challenged them of course.

Here's a high level guide to digital content law in the UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content, you can see mention of the things we've been talking about such as, "consumers being able to challenge terms and conditions which are not fair or are hidden in the small print".

What I intend to do is drop the sub as I do not trust ZOS to deliver meaningful ESO+ included content (based on TG and DB which felt rushed to me), and if Morrowind gets good reviews from my esteemed fellow gamers here, then I'll buy it outright. I wonder how this will work out for ZOS though, very few people seem minded to keep the sub AND pay for expacs once per year, you're looking at 120ukp a year on ESO then, rather steep really, and 30ukp per year on the expac is a lot less than the 82ukp a year I pay now for my ESO+ sub.

raglau · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

GrumpyMuffin wrote: »

at the risk of being thick. I have an observation about that passage you linked to. They suggest that four dlc was proving too hard to do with their resources. Fine, but to then suggest that they will do a big expansion and three dlc seems more work than four which they couldn't do. Hmm. Doesn't give me much confidence about the size of future dlc.

They already stated almost a year ago that they plan to release more 'smaller' DLCs instead of large ones... which tells me they were already planning for the Morrowind expansion during that time, they just didn't tell us that part. So yes, I would expect more DLCs like "SoTH", "Dark Brotherhood", "Thieves Guild", as it will make the yearly 'expansion' seem more worthwhile in purchasing by comparison.

Yes, I think you are right and the days of Wrothgar DLC are gone, and to me that's the only one really worth having, IC I guess too for the dungeons. DB and TG were OK but not a patch (pun intended) on those questlines from single player TES games. But of course, ZOS can't make inclusive DLC anywhere near the standard of the Expac or they'll have a marketing issue in terms of trying to make the Expacs seem super shiny and exciting. So IMO DLC henceforth is going to be pretty bland, so I'm unsubbing. I'll buy DLC and/or Expacs outright based upon their individual merits. I mean, none of us would exactly miss something of the quality level of SotH, for example.

The new model could work well but on paper it seems like they've committed to more work - 3 DLC and 1 Expac P/A - and there's every chance they'll get less revenue, because many people see the sub as lacking value now and state they are dropping it. More effort + less revenue = less quality, if that's how it pans out of course.

Caligamy_ESO · February 2017

They have covered their bases for things like this by making every player accept the Dispute Resolution, Arbitration and Class Action Waiver unless you accepted this in the last 30 days.. then you can still opt-out of this waiver in writing.

That still doesn't help the thousands of players who were told for more than a year that their subscriptions and digital currency they've been purchasing would be able to purchase all downloadable content.

I for one have immediately cancelled my ESO+ and have no plans of revisiting this game until they change this. If they don't c'est la vies. There are plenty of companies out there that do not screw over their subscribers at every opportunity they get.

To those that don't get it because its "only $40", its really about the $180 a year for the subscribers who have now stocked up crowns that they are changing the terms on.

Druwe · February 2017

3 words - Dwarven Behemoth Statue.....

Pay for it - enough said!

Druwe · February 2017

I AM a subscriber - and I do get why people are Angry - but how many games do u pay for and play for 10 hours. From a purely economic viewpoint a large expansion will be Pay to Play simply because of the work. costs and resources taken to make it. And a new class involves a LOT of programming. Come on I have seen people happily pay 40 bucks in crowns for a freaking reindeer pet. They are incurring a lot of costs in producing the expansion and yes they want to be reimbursed in real cash not crowns for it.

heaven13 · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

GrumpyMuffin wrote: »

at the risk of being thick. I have an observation about that passage you linked to. They suggest that four dlc was proving too hard to do with their resources. Fine, but to then suggest that they will do a big expansion and three dlc seems more work than four which they couldn't do. Hmm. Doesn't give me much confidence about the size of future dlc.

They already stated almost a year ago that they plan to release more 'smaller' DLCs instead of large ones... which tells me they were already planning for the Morrowind expansion during that time, they just didn't tell us that part. So yes, I would expect more DLCs like "SoTH", "Dark Brotherhood", "Thieves Guild", as it will make the yearly 'expansion' seem more worthwhile in purchasing by comparison.

Good point. However, they were not able to make any Crown Store DLC while they were working on Morrowind and a QoL base game patch (which Matt Firor does refer to as a DLC).

This year will feature four major events:

Homestead, our player housing DLC, in February
ESO: Morrowind, our first Chapter release, in June
A dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter
A content-based DLC in the fourth quarter
We will – of course – provide a base patch with each of these launches that will provide quality of life fixes, updates, balance changes, and other items. For more on each of these events, keep reading.

A new content Cadence

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter.
*Source: Welcome to 2017

I do have doubts about whether they will able to keep the above release schedule since they couldn't manage that kind of schedule while working on their first Chapter. Only time will tell if they can manage it with their resources.

I do understand why ESO+ subscribers are upset. I have a sub myself, though I also purchased the Gold edition so really, the only DLC I have access to right now that I wouldn't otherwise is SoH and, as Pibbles said, I wouldn't miss it otherwise. I'd planned on using my sub as a chance to try out new content and then decide if I wanted to purchase it outright or not. Since that won't be possible with Morrowind, I've got some serious thinking to do on whether the craft bag and the 10% research gain is worth it to me (because that's all I really care about with what's left).

As for the DLC/expansion/chapter debacle, it'd be really great if ZoS would settle on what's what with clearly defined terms for transparency's sake. As I said above, Matt referred to Homestead as DLC, but at an earlier point in time, DLC (regarding ESO+) was brought up as needing to be paid for and, those who wanted it could purchase it ala carte if they wanted but would otherwise have access to with their sub. At one point (it's been quoted around here somewhere) they referred to future content as expansions and said those would be included in ESO+. When the developers toss the terms around interchangeably or define them as being x at this point in time only, it's no wonder that some of their customers are confused as well.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2017

Pibbles wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

Not sure about the 4 DLC per year statement either. It could be 4 updates per year that includes free ones like 1T and Homestead.

1t and Homestead are not DLCs. They are changes to the base game. Think of it like this, if you go out and buy the base game from a shop today (well ok, after Homestead is released *g*), would you also need to download additional content to get access to 1T and Homestead?

Again if that's the only reason you sub then you can call it off anytime.

This is very true. However, what if we have been subbed for the past 6 months without receiving the 2 promised quarterly DLCs? Do we not have a right to be a little upset about that? We can indeed unsub, but we won't be getting our money back.

^^ That's the issue for me, they've not delivered any DLC for quite some time, the first time they do, they reclassify it to avoid having to give it to sub holders. Most certainly when I took out my sub the wording was very clear that it included 'access to all downloadable content' (ZOS' words).

For now, I'm going to watch this unfold, I've subbed since release - albeit with a break - but I'm not angry at this point because it's hard for me to know the context just from watching ESO Live. If this is a big uplift to the game and content, I'd possibly accept it's an expansion and pay as it's not a lot of money and I am a pragmatic person, but then there is a principle at stake here.

One question, do other MMOs use this model of voluntary sub plus paid expacs? Did Trion/Rift do this, I can't remember now?

I am quite certain that if someone in the EU/UK challenged this, ZOS would come unstuck here. I am not going to detail why here because I don't intend to do ZOS' job for them ;-), but suffice to say myself and a lawyer challenged Frontier Developments and got refunds for hundreds of Elite Dangerous Kickstarter Backers when FD dropped Offline Mode. Anyone selling to an EU buyer is bound by EU law and ZOS do have an EU legal entity that can be challenged: ZeniMax Online Ireland Ltd., Unit 2 Galway West Business Park, Western Distributor Road, Rahoon, Galway, Co. Galway, Ireland.

So, having taken on a big software company and won before, my message to anyone in the EU thinking they do want to challenge ZOS is:

1 - Ignore the DLC/Expansion matter, it's meaningless in EU law, it's all digital content.
2 - Be patient and watch this unfold and gather everything. Screenshot all ZOS comms, all AMAs, keep all your emails from ZOS, document ESO Live etc. One reason we beat Frontier so easily is because we had hundreds of people who had diligently recorded everything and whilst FD tried to amend their website later, we had it all recorded historically and could prove terms that existed at the time in question.
3 - Ignore anything in a EULA that implies ZOS can do what they like, EULAs have no meaning in the EU as it is impossible to sign away your rights or degrade your position under EU law.
4 - Collaborate with other people to present a unified case. We don't have class actions suits in the EU, so we have to form a united front ourselves.

EDIT: I think I should add here I'm not suggesting people do take on ZOS, it was quite time consuming for me with Frontier Devs, even though they folded quite fast due to the strength of our case. It was the right thing to do however, and many Kickstarter backers had invested hundreds and in one case, thousands, of ££. Here we're talking about a very small cost. But, principles are principles, sometimes you just have to hold companies to account. All cases are different however... DYOR as they say!

@Pibbles does 1) include only additional digital content that has to be paid for? If not, wouldn't the so called "base game patches" (1T, Housing) fall into the "digital content" as well?
And how does this goes with the option to buy a physical copy of the additional content (Morrowind, Gold Edition)?

I'm really curiouse about that. Even if I think it's a bit over the top that this discussion has come to this point.

Hi @Chilly-McFreeze, apologies for the delay I've been away.

Yes, in the eyes of the law (UK & EU) anything downloaded is digital content, DVD/CD/Bluray is 'goods' and was already covered by the Sale of Goods Act, which is now called the Consumer Rights Act (in the UK, but EU is the same as we get our consumer laws from there), and covers digital content in the same way. Interestingly, 'free' digital content comes with the same protections as paid, so if 'free' breaks something, it can be a breach of contract due to 'not fit for purpose' type stuff.

We've been talking about this in another thread called 'the fine print' (can't find it now), it's kind of a fun conversation, nothing heavy, we're theorising more than anything, and what we feel it turns on is how the ESO+ contract is renewed each sub period and if ZOS formally notify us in the renewal terms that the 'expacs' are not included in ESO+. If they do this, then we have notice and can choose not buy the sub anymore and don't suffer a 'loss'. If they do not do that, it's questionable because most people do not read the forum so would be unware of a new constraint being placed upon their sub, and you cannot change a contract without agreement from both parties, that's when ZOS would stand to get into trouble IMO, if someone challenged them of course.

Here's a high level guide to digital content law in the UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content, you can see mention of the things we've been talking about such as, "consumers being able to challenge terms and conditions which are not fair or are hidden in the small print".

What I intend to do is drop the sub as I do not trust ZOS to deliver meaningful ESO+ included content (based on TG and DB which felt rushed to me), and if Morrowind gets good reviews from my esteemed fellow gamers here, then I'll buy it outright. I wonder how this will work out for ZOS though, very few people seem minded to keep the sub AND pay for expacs once per year, you're looking at 120ukp a year on ESO then, rather steep really, and 30ukp per year on the expac is a lot less than the 82ukp a year I pay now for my ESO+ sub.

Thanks for going more into detail. If I find the thread I'll definitly take a look into it.

ArcVelarian · February 2017

If it comes in a box and it is called an expansion, then it is not Downloadable Content (DLC).

esotoon · February 2017

ArcVelarian wrote: »

If it comes in a box and it is called an expansion, then it is not Downloadable Content (DLC).

So you're saying it's a DLC, given it comes in both a box and digital form and isn't called an expansion?

borgking · February 2017

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Then If i buy the expansion which is Morrowind they should give 3 months ESO PLUS next to it.

No. If you have Eso+ you shouldn't be buying a thing that's related to content.

yep totally agree...after paying over £50.00 for the game and also paying a monthly subscription... to make you pay again for another expansion or whatever theyre calling it, is a disgrace

Anhedonie · February 2017

Bend over

)))

Chadak · February 2017

The promise: All DLC for free with ESO+

The solution: Stop making DLC. Instead, take up to an entire year to make a Chapter. Charge full retail price for chapter content.

In this way, they're never lying when they say all the DLC is free with the sub, but they're under no obligation to make anymore and call it DLC.

Win win win! Just eh...

...Not for you. Only for them.

Its nothing personal. Just business, mate. They'd be leaving money on the table to do anything less.

raglau · February 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Thanks for going more into detail. If I find the thread I'll definitly take a look into it. [/quote]

NP @Chilly-McFreeze you may be interested in my experiment below:

I thought I'd do an experiment and permit my sub to renew, so I could see how ZOS renew it, then use the Crowns granted to purchase all the DLC then leave ESO+ around the release of Morrowin.

They make no mention of a change to terms, which they do have to do here in the UK/EU, on the durable (in this case an email). At the same time as this, the Store still cites ESO Plus as granting, "full access to all DLC game packs", with no differentiator for Crown Store, or Expacs etc. They also say, "you hereby consent that performance of digital content will begin immediately and you therefore lose your right to withdraw", which I did not consent to as I let my sub auto-renew.

In this scenario they are supposed to pre-warn over email that they're going to auto-renew, which gives me time to cancel before they try to tie me in again because since 13th June 2014 you do have to very specifically waive the 14 day cancellation period, they can't do it for you. I think they have not updated their workflow to account for two very large changes in EU law in 2014 and 2015, and this could therefore be challenged IMO. I have done this before when a cloud backup provider tried to renew me without warning, American Express challenged them and then forced a refund for the year to me.

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

Spectral_Lord wrote: »

From my understanding ESO+ only covers content that is released and purchasable through the Crown Store as well--which Morrowind will not be.

out of interest, where is that insinuated? I can't seem to find anything that would make anyone think that. They should have explicitly stated that all free content only covered CS items. Not for us to 2nd guess what our sub actually entails. I'm not against having to pay for it, so I have no axe to grind either way, but I just think you've randomly made that up because it's currently the way it is.

If you can provide a link or something that backs your understanding up, then I'll be big enough to accept you're correct, and I'm wrong.

esotoon · February 2017

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

out of interest, where is that insinuated? I can't seem to find anything that would make anyone think that. They should have explicitly stated that all free content only covered CS items. Not for us to 2nd guess what our sub actually entails. I'm not against having to pay for it, so I have no axe to grind either way, but I just think you've randomly made that up because it's currently the way it is.

If you can provide a link or something that backs your understanding up, then I'll be big enough to accept you're correct, and I'm wrong.

They recently (as best as I can tell, when they announced Morrowind) stealth changed the wording in some of their communications from "access to all available DLC game packs" to "access to all DLC game packs available in the Crown Store". When people first started complaining about this issue, others defending Zos' position read the latest info from ZOS, saw the "Crown Store" comment, and used it to say that those complaining had no case without realising it had only just been changed.

See the first post in this thread for an example of this change: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318113/just-a-quick-comparison/p1

ADarklore · February 2017

heaven13 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

GrumpyMuffin wrote: »

at the risk of being thick. I have an observation about that passage you linked to. They suggest that four dlc was proving too hard to do with their resources. Fine, but to then suggest that they will do a big expansion and three dlc seems more work than four which they couldn't do. Hmm. Doesn't give me much confidence about the size of future dlc.

They already stated almost a year ago that they plan to release more 'smaller' DLCs instead of large ones... which tells me they were already planning for the Morrowind expansion during that time, they just didn't tell us that part. So yes, I would expect more DLCs like "SoTH", "Dark Brotherhood", "Thieves Guild", as it will make the yearly 'expansion' seem more worthwhile in purchasing by comparison.

Good point. However, they were not able to make any Crown Store DLC while they were working on Morrowind and a QoL base game patch (which Matt Firor does refer to as a DLC).

This year will feature four major events:

Homestead, our player housing DLC, in February
ESO: Morrowind, our first Chapter release, in June
A dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter
A content-based DLC in the fourth quarter
We will – of course – provide a base patch with each of these launches that will provide quality of life fixes, updates, balance changes, and other items. For more on each of these events, keep reading.

A new content Cadence

Because we will be regularly introducing Chapters to ESO, we are going to make a small revision to our content delivery cadence, starting this year. We will continue to ship quarterly updates to the game – each with a base patch that has all the balance, quality of life, and bug fixes that you have come to expect. Additionally, we'll have a DLC in the first quarter of each year, a Chapter in the second quarter, a dungeon-based DLC in the third quarter, and a DLC in the 4th quarter.
*Source: Welcome to 2017

I do have doubts about whether they will able to keep the above release schedule since they couldn't manage that kind of schedule while working on their first Chapter. Only time will tell if they can manage it with their resources.

I do understand why ESO+ subscribers are upset. I have a sub myself, though I also purchased the Gold edition so really, the only DLC I have access to right now that I wouldn't otherwise is SoH and, as Pibbles said, I wouldn't miss it otherwise. I'd planned on using my sub as a chance to try out new content and then decide if I wanted to purchase it outright or not. Since that won't be possible with Morrowind, I've got some serious thinking to do on whether the craft bag and the 10% research gain is worth it to me (because that's all I really care about with what's left).

As for the DLC/expansion/chapter debacle, it'd be really great if ZoS would settle on what's what with clearly defined terms for transparency's sake. As I said above, Matt referred to Homestead as DLC, but at an earlier point in time, DLC (regarding ESO+) was brought up as needing to be paid for and, those who wanted it could purchase it ala carte if they wanted but would otherwise have access to with their sub. At one point (it's been quoted around here somewhere) they referred to future content as expansions and said those would be included in ESO+. When the developers toss the terms around interchangeably or define them as being x at this point in time only, it's no wonder that some of their customers are confused as well.

You do realize that most of last year was also spent working on One Tamriel and basically recoding the entire game, right? Which means they have multiple teams working on multiple projects, but because of the abrupt decision to implement OT, many of those shifted to assist in the recoding. We've still been getting new content and major updates every three months, right on schedule, so I'm not going to complain about lack of additions to the game. Also, what one person considers 'content' and another considers 'content' can very often be two different things... many players complain that they don't care about Housing, that to them it's not 'content', but to others who have waited years for it, it is a very appreciated addition to the game.

Hawco10 · February 2017

As I live in California, we tend to not take this stuff too lightly, so for fits and giggles, I'm going to look at all my options as a consumer and see if I can pursue this through other channels if we don't get some resolution. Not really into paying for a year to get all available new content then having the goal posts moved by stealth.

ADarklore · February 2017

Hawco10 wrote: »

As I live in California, we tend to not take this stuff too lightly, so for fits and giggles, I'm going to look at all my options as a consumer and see if I can pursue this through other channels if we don't get some resolution. Not really into paying for a year to get all available new content then having the goal posts moved by stealth.

Good luck with that... I'm sure you can afford to face the gigantic team of lawyers that fought Facebook and won $500M.

Also, be sure you read ALL the legalese and TOS, since 'protections' in this country are far less stringent than in the EU.

MornaBaine · February 2017

Actually, in the video announcing this they shied away from the term expansion, literally said they don't want to call it an expansion, and instead referred to it as a "chapter." Apparently using a NEW word makes it different somehow.

This "chapter" is just as expensive as the entire original game purchase. And indeed it includes the base game. But guess what? I already HAVE the base game! So why isn't it HALF PRICE for existing players and only full price for those buying into ESO for the first time with it?

Otherwise, for the price of AN ENTIRE NEW GAME I expect to GET the same amount of content as a new game, not a mere 30 more hours.

And even IF it were half price it would still need at least TWICE the land mass and content of Wrothgar.

That might just be PART of why people are upset.

Jimmy562 · February 2017

borgking wrote: »

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

Then If i buy the expansion which is Morrowind they should give 3 months ESO PLUS next to it.

No. If you have Eso+ you shouldn't be buying a thing that's related to content.

yep totally agree...after paying over £50.00 for the game and also paying a monthly subscription... to make you pay again for another expansion or whatever theyre calling it, is a disgrace

World of Warcraft has expansion's their players must pay for and they even went a whole year without any content. FFXIV does the same thing.

ESO DLC's are similar to WoW and FFXIV larger patches and the chapters are just expansions. I see nothing wrong with what they are doing.

heaven13 · February 2017

I am aware of that, yes. My point was not that consumers have different definitions of what qualifies as content, but that the developers use different terminology about this. I actually specifically stated Crown Store DLC, which is what a sub gets you (now), that non-subbing customers would have to pay for separately.

4 quarterly DLC releases were too much for their resources. How is 3 quarterly DLC releases + 1 larger chapter release going to be less of a strain on those resources? Unless they are counting on everyone that subs to continue doing so (or new people subbing to make up for those that cancel) in addition to the added revenue from the Chapters.

Thus the consideration becomes: Going forward, where will priorities lie? QoL updates for everyone and Chapters that everyone pays for? If you look at the past year as an example, that's a good hypothesis.

That's all.

TequilaFire · February 2017

Not necessary for ZOS to say anything as they have legions of fanboys defending their right to keep changing the business model and charging double just because it might of been done before.

Why change, a Studebaker should always remain a Studebaker.
Oh wait, Studebaker is out of business.

GreenhaloX · February 2017

It's a business of making money, profits and ensuring revenues to support operations, developments and employees' paychecks! You can't expect a business to continuously dish out products and not charge a fee/price. Even if it would be "politically correct"to be a DLC, it will still cost money to get it. ESO plus members paying subscription for DLC, and non-ESO members having to pay separate fee/prices if they want to access a DLC. So, either way you're paying to play this game. Usually, those people complaining are probably those expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. They want the cake and eat it too. People will also just complain about anything for the sake of complaining; doesn't matter if it's good or bad.

ADarklore · February 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's a business of making money, profits and ensuring revenues to support operations, developments and employees' paychecks! You can't expect a business to continuously dish out products and not charge a fee/price. Even if it would be "politically correct"to be a DLC, it will still cost money to get it. ESO plus members paying subscription for DLC, and non-ESO members having to pay separate fee/prices if they want to access a DLC. So, either way you're paying to play this game. Usually, those people complaining are probably those expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. They want the cake and eat it too. People will also just complain about anything for the sake of complaining; doesn't matter if it's good or bad.

Sadly this is true, but can we expect anything less from the era of 'entitlement'?!?

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's a business of making money, profits and ensuring revenues to support operations, developments and employees' paychecks! You can't expect a business to continuously dish out products and not charge a fee/price. Even if it would be "politically correct"to be a DLC, it will still cost money to get it. ESO plus members paying subscription for DLC, and non-ESO members having to pay separate fee/prices if they want to access a DLC. So, either way you're paying to play this game. Usually, those people complaining are probably those expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. They want the cake and eat it too. People will also just complain about anything for the sake of complaining; doesn't matter if it's good or bad.

Sadly this is true, but can we expect anything less from the era of 'entitlement'?!?

Wow, 'entitlement'. How original and internet like. Whilst i agree with the sentiment of the person you're quoting, I'm still hoping this year throws up a new internet buzzword so we can move away from all the dullards who just parrot the word "entitlement" at every God damn opportunity. You sure did counter all the nay sayer arguments. KUTGW

esotoon · February 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

It's a business of making money, profits and ensuring revenues to support operations, developments and employees' paychecks! You can't expect a business to continuously dish out products and not charge a fee/price.

You are talking about subscribers. They are literally paying ZOS every month. So whilst you might disagree with their views regarding having to pay for the Morrowind 'Chapter', by the very fact that they are subscribers it should be obvious that they are not people who are expecting "a business to continuously dish out products and not charge a fee/price."

Dawnblade · February 2017

Anyone saying something like "I once spent $5 on the Crown Store so I demand to have a crafting bag and every DLC / expansion for free" would be entitlement.

Expecting things like paid DLC content each quarter (which we won't get for a year and will be book-ended by two dungeon DLCs) included as part of a subscription or an extra slot or two included in the purchase of Morrowind is NOT entitlement.

Agree to disagree as to whether the new model holds value and / or where you feel changes should be made to create a value proposition you agree with personally, but note that others may have a different opinion.

Oh and anyone who just says 'entitlement' and / or blindly defends ZOS on any and everything is just as bad if not worse than anyone who demands everything for free.

At least try to find specific points you agree and disagree with to show you can actually think for yourself.

raglau · February 2017

esotoon wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

out of interest, where is that insinuated? I can't seem to find anything that would make anyone think that. They should have explicitly stated that all free content only covered CS items. Not for us to 2nd guess what our sub actually entails. I'm not against having to pay for it, so I have no axe to grind either way, but I just think you've randomly made that up because it's currently the way it is.

If you can provide a link or something that backs your understanding up, then I'll be big enough to accept you're correct, and I'm wrong.

They recently (as best as I can tell, when they announced Morrowind) stealth changed the wording in some of their communications from "access to all available DLC game packs" to "access to all DLC game packs available in the Crown Store". When people first started complaining about this issue, others defending Zos' position read the latest info from ZOS, saw the "Crown Store" comment, and used it to say that those complaining had no case without realising it had only just been changed.

See the first post in this thread for an example of this change: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318113/just-a-quick-comparison/p1

And they seem to have forgotten to update a very important one, the push button in-game link to the Crown Store, as I just pressed it right when my sub-autorenewed so I could capture what was being offered at that point in time (remembering that here in the EU, 'DLC' is a meaningless term as it is now all 'digital content'):

This implies to me that ZOS wished to shore up the legalities of not offering Expacs to subbers, but there are so many links to this offer that they've not been able to capture them all, even in their own game code they seem to have missed a trick.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.