Request for an official explanation of the difference between terminologies "DLC" and "expansion".

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

I am not a subscriber and I'm going to pre-order Morrowind. And I think the fee charged for this "new chapter" is rather acceptable (well, at least totally acceptable when compared to the 6k crwons worth of motif, 5k crowns worth of elk mount, the crown crates or 1.5k crowns worth of merely two dungeons). But I think I understand why some eso+ members are expressing vocally their disappointment or even anger. The point is not how high they are charged, but rather why they are charged. In fact, if I had had subscribed for 1 year or longer, I think I would feel cheated, or betrayed.

On the other hand, I'm also well aware of that ZOS has an argument that Morrowind is an expansion but not DLC, and it seems that it's well-accepted among players, or at least among the veteran video game players, that DLC should mean small new contents while expansions should mean big new contents. But I also notice that it's fair to say there is no general consensus in regard to where should we draw the line between these two notions. Unlike others game companies, for whom I see no harm to use these two words simultaneously or ambiguously, ZOS has offered a service called eso+ membership which grant players access to all future DLC, only to leave players to figure it out, by themselves, that there does exist another word "expansion" in ZOS's dictionary. In this case, I think a clear clarification of these two nouns, which applies to Morrowind and all future contents, is in need. So ZOS, what, in your idea, justifies "Morrowind" to be an expansion instead of mere a DLC? Will every new contents which has, say more than 25, or 30 hours of playtime be labeled as "expansion" ? Or will providing a new class suffice? Or Morrowind is not a DLC simply because it's not included in Crown Store?

In my opinion, having promised to every eso+ members that they have access to all future DLC, and only after two years, added that "by the way, expansions are not included", will inevitably lead to loss of credibility, if not legal issues. And ZOS seems, as always, not care much about it. So let's see if ZOS players' feeling enough to at least give an afterwards explanation on their principles on word choice.

Blairy087 · February 2017

(Copied of a steam forum)

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

No they aren't the same thing, never have been, never will be.

Also pretty sure dlc is download only. No disc

Turelus · February 2017

Blairy087 wrote: »

(Copied of a steam forum)

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

No they aren't the same thing, never have been, never will be.

This is how I have always seen it.

I somewhat understand the anger, but at the same time I feel this was one of those cases where one person was annoyed initially a started talking about it and now everyone has read their opinion and jumped on it as their own.

Sadly now everyone who is a subscriber is being labelled as some whiny entitled child over the fuss. Still it's peoples right to vent their frustrations.

Ilmarthethief · February 2017

DLC is just a piece of content.
One zone. Two dungeons. New quest line. New Trial. Something like that. It does not introduce major changes to the game.

Expansion is something bigger. It brings lots of new stuff to the game, introduce major changes. If you see new class, new PvP modes, major game rules changes that make the gameplay completely different consider this as expansion. For instance One Tamriel can easily be considered as free expansion (albeit it did not bring new content at all).

Something like that.

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

Blairy087 wrote: »

(Copied of a steam forum)

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

No they aren't the same thing, never have been, never will be.

If you've read post. I think you should realize that I'm not denying that they are different. I'm asking for a official, clear, unambiguous distinguishing criterion.

Faulgor · February 2017

DLC: Quarterly content updates offered in the Crown Store.

Chapters (Expansion): Less frequent, more substantial content updates that are sold separately from the Crown Store

The mode of monetization is probably their very definition, not the other way around. And size is entirely relative, so it's not a good metric to judge either.

Blairy087 · February 2017

ldzlcs065 wrote: »

Blairy087 wrote: »

(Copied of a steam forum)

DLC = Generally a small addition to a game. Fairly cheap.

Expansion = A large addition to the game, usually as big or nearly as big as the main game. Sometimes they are even standalone.

No they aren't the same thing, never have been, never will be.

If you've read post. I think you should realize that I'm not denying that they are different. I'm asking for a official, clear, unambiguous distinguishing criterion.

Like i said its just a copy and paste.

I added the
i think dlc is download only. No disc

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

DLC: Something ZOS lets you pay crowns for.

Expansion: Something ZOS wants additional money for.

That's about it. There is no real difference in content, only the business model.

DLC means downloadable content. Vvardenfell is downloadable, therefore its DLC and should be included in the subscription.

Turelus · February 2017

Also I am pretty sure ZOS just confirmed the difference last night.

If they're releasing a boxed edition with new classes and game features it'll be deemed an expansion, if it's a small zone with some story or a couple of dungeons it'll be DLC.

DagmarSLNY · February 2017

Technically all expansions are DLC but not all DLC are expansions. As the name implies, expansions are generally additions of large chunks of new content and always include horizontal increase in content in the form of new maps, storyline and items and often include vertical increase in content as well, e.g. new character development aspects. DLC on the other hand can literally be anything that adds content on any scale, e.g horse armor. I have no idea what ZOS is claiming regarding their status as I have little to no idea about whatever controversy has been raised with the next map, but the prior maps were expansions and nothing anyone says to the contrary will magically make them otherwise.

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

Ilmarthethief wrote: »

DLC is just a piece of content.
One zone. Two dungeons. New quest line. New Trial. Something like that. It does not introduce major changes to the game.

Expansion is something bigger. It brings lots of new stuff to the game, introduce major changes. If you see new class, new PvP modes, major game rules changes that make the gameplay completely different consider this as expansion. For instance One Tamriel can easily be considered as free expansion (albeit it did not bring new content at all).

Something like that.

Well, I think if ZOS make an official statement in accordance with your views in the future, I may accept it. But at this moment it seems to me that ZOS just borke up their own promise by renaming a noun without further explanation, that makes me feel insecure.

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DLC: Something ZOS lets you pay crowns for.

Expansion: Something ZOS wants additional money for.

That's about it. There is no real difference in content, only the business model.

DLC means downloadable content. Vvardenfell is downloadable, therefore its DLC and should be included in the subscription.

If this is the case, I have to say I will never believe whatever they will promise in the future.

Turelus · February 2017

ldzlcs065 wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DLC: Something ZOS lets you pay crowns for.

Expansion: Something ZOS wants additional money for.

That's about it. There is no real difference in content, only the business model.

DLC means downloadable content. Vvardenfell is downloadable, therefore its DLC and should be included in the subscription.

If this is the case, I have to say I will never believe whatever they will promise in the future.

People have been saying this since launch, ZOS has not had a good track record of sticking to any promise they've made.

Lord_Xion · February 2017

If the general eso player had played another other MMO out there they would know the difference. I can't really believe how many people are upset at buying a expansion but think it falls under DLC an should be bought with crowns. Has any other DLC been offered with a Hard Copy, the amount of people that are upset an believe they have being conned is mind blowing.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2017

No one needs anything official because it already exists.

The expansion is available via digital purchase or a retail store just as the article reads. It's clear enough to clarify in the help section as well

Also read the Dev tracker where it's confirmed not to fall under ESO plus or crowns.

Move on

esotoon · February 2017

Lord_Xion wrote: »

If the general eso player had played another other MMO out there they would know the difference.

Can you name other B2P MMOs that offer a subscription service that also charges those subscribers for additional content? (Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious).

I can't really believe how many people are upset at buying a expansion but think it falls under DLC an should be bought with crowns. Has any other DLC been offered with a Hard Copy, the amount of people that are upset an believe they have being conned is mind blowing.

If as a subscriber I had received the promised DLC in Q4 2016, Q1 2017 and now Q2 2017, I wouldn't be upset about this 'Expansion Pack'.

Or if this 'Expansion Pack' had the equivalent amount of content and game changing aspects usually found in equivalent MMO expansion packs sold at this price, I wouldn't be upset.

It's the fact that what seems to amount to little more than about the equivalent of 3 DLCs worth of content, being sold as an 'Expansion Pack', after going 3 quarters without any DLC (funny how those two numbers coincide), and after having it previously implied that there would be no Expansion Packs in ESO and that Subscribers would be receiving all future DLCs for free, that's why some of us are upset.

TheTwistedRune · February 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

No one needs anything official because it already exists.

The expansion is available via digital purchase or a retail store just as the article reads. It's clear enough to clarify in the help section as well

Also read the Dev tracker where it's confirmed not to fall under ESO plus or crowns.

Move on

Perhaps. But that does not make what ZOS has done any less shady, or nullify what people are upset about.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2017

It is not about the content size, length in hours etc

The whole difference is in the content delivery method.
Expansion - it is a physical copy sold in stores in separate physical box, that required you to have the base game.
DLC - it is a "Down Loadable Content" sold separately via internet stores, that requires you to have the base game.

So Expansion IS a DLC when bought digitally.
DLC IS an Expansion when bought as a separate physical copy in a physical, existing in real life box.

Axoinus · February 2017

The initial launch price is just to gouge the early adopters. Price will drop drasticly after a couple months.

Enslaved · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DLC: Something ZOS lets you pay crowns for.

Expansion: Something ZOS wants additional money for.

That's about it. There is no real difference in content, only the business model.

DLC means downloadable content. Vvardenfell is downloadable, therefore its DLC and should be included in the subscription.

Well, mounts are downloadable, so are costumes. I don't see anyone QQ about these not being free to use for us ESO+ elitists.

BalticBlues · February 2017

DagmarSLNY wrote: »

Technically all expansions are DLC...

Indeed, technically all expansions are "downloadable content" (DLC). This is why promising "Access to all of ESO’s downloadable content (or DLC) game packs for the duration of your membership" made people expecting all expansions included. Having no DLC this summer (according to the definition of ZOS) actually devaluates ESO+ now. Accordingly, many subscribers probably will stop subbing.

OrphanHelgen · February 2017

Vvardenfell is a dlc, not an expansion. End of story! Zos calling an expansion, are plain wrong.

raglau · February 2017

BalticBlues wrote: »

DagmarSLNY wrote: »

Technically all expansions are DLC but not all DLC are expansions.

Yes, technically all expansions are "downloadable content" (DLC).
And this is why promising the quarterly DLC with ESO+ made people expecting expansions included. Having no DLC (according to the definition of ZOS) actually devaluates ESO+ now. Accordingly, many subscribers will stop subbing.

Yes, the sub can be seen to be meaningless now, because ZOS can (attempt to) reclassify digital content at will, and once they've done this once and succeeded, they are likely to do this again. The sub does net Crowns, but I personally have never spent mine, the Crown Shop stuff is all ephemera IMO, e.g. I still ride my original Paint Horse. Crafting bag is useful but hardly worth 100ukp a year. And when you're max level and Master Crafter, the boosts are meaningless. Whilst I do have a sub, when my son started playing, we bought a load of Crowns in the sale, then bought the DLC in Crown Sales, because by then I'd already seen the sub was rather meaningless. When my current 6 month sub expires I shall not renew it, as it now has no value.

I want to again point out that for anyone living in the EU, there is no distinction between DLC and Expansion, it's all legally classed as digital content, and IMO ZOS will come unstuck here in the EU over this. At some point someone is going to challenge this decision from ZOS.

So for us EU people, the OP's question is moot. We don't care what ZOS answer to this (if they bother), it's what the law says that matters and that's very clear, there's no difference. In the USA it could vary on a state by state basis but I think Australia are as tough on this as us EU people.

sadownik · February 2017

Lord_Xion wrote: »

If the general eso player had played another other MMO out there they would know the difference. I can't really believe how many people are upset at buying a expansion but think it falls under DLC an should be bought with crowns. Has any other DLC been offered with a Hard Copy, the amount of people that are upset an believe they have being conned is mind blowing.

Mate im sorry but you are completely missing the point. Name please 1 other b2p MMO that has optional sub and it doesn't give all content while subbed. Ill wait. My mind is blown how eager people compare ESO to p2p games.

Jitterbug · February 2017

One is more expensive than the other

Carbonised · February 2017

Maybe the uproar would be a little less, had they actually sticked to the idea of quarterly DLCs so subbing users actualyl got their money's worth. Instead Thief Guild is coming up on 1 year anniversary, then it's DB and after that, 2 Hist dungeons and nothing. One Tam wasn't a DLC, it was just updating some outdated dungeons and gear and making everyone part of the Battle Leveling system. Housing isn't a DLC, and quite frankly, the costs involved makes Housing seem like nothing but a big old cash grab.

I would be somewhat fine with having to fork over even more money for Morrowind, if they had actually made good on their promise of more frequent DLCs. As it is right now, ESO+ is nothing but the world's most expensive crafting bag.

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

No one needs anything official because it already exists.

The expansion is available via digital purchase or a retail store just as the article reads. It's clear enough to clarify in the help section as well

Also read the Dev tracker where it's confirmed not to fall under ESO plus or crowns.

Move on

With recent posts in this forum. I wonder how ignorant one must be to claim that "no one needs". Even my post is the only post you've read read recently, you should have noticed that at least I need and I definitely don't want to hire you to speak for me. By the way, I have noticed several responses here, yours included, that state affirmatively what is exactly the distinction between DLC and expansions. But even among these responses I see a lot of disagreements. I think this fact just justifies my idea that an official clarification is in need.

ldzlcs065 · February 2017

Pibbles wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

DagmarSLNY wrote: »

Technically all expansions are DLC but not all DLC are expansions.

Yes, technically all expansions are "downloadable content" (DLC).
And this is why promising the quarterly DLC with ESO+ made people expecting expansions included. Having no DLC (according to the definition of ZOS) actually devaluates ESO+ now. Accordingly, many subscribers will stop subbing.

Yes, the sub can be seen to be meaningless now, because ZOS can (attempt to) reclassify digital content at will, and once they've done this once and succeeded, they are likely to do this again. The sub does net Crowns, but I personally have never spent mine, the Crown Shop stuff is all ephemera IMO, e.g. I still ride my original Paint Horse. Crafting bag is useful but hardly worth 100ukp a year. And when you're max level and Master Crafter, the boosts are meaningless. Whilst I do have a sub, when my son started playing, we bought a load of Crowns in the sale, then bought the DLC in Crown Sales, because by then I'd already seen the sub was rather meaningless. When my current 6 month sub expires I shall not renew it, as it now has no value.

I want to again point out that for anyone living in the EU, there is no distinction between DLC and Expansion, it's all legally classed as digital content, and IMO ZOS will come unstuck here in the EU over this. At some point someone is going to challenge this decision from ZOS.

So for us EU people, the OP's question is moot. We don't care what ZOS answer to this (if they bother), it's what the law says that matters and that's very clear, there's no difference. In the USA it could vary on a state by state basis but I think Australia are as tough on this as us EU people.

In fact, I live in EU and play in PC EU server, but I am very unfamiliar with these legal issues. If that is the case I admit that my original request might be meaningless in legal aspect. However, I still would like to see if ZOS will make this first step towards explaining this DLC and expansion thing.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2017

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

No one needs anything official because it already exists.

The expansion is available via digital purchase or a retail store just as the article reads. It's clear enough to clarify in the help section as well

Also read the Dev tracker where it's confirmed not to fall under ESO plus or crowns.

Move on

Perhaps. But that does not make what ZOS has done any less shady, or nullify what people are upset about.

@TheTwistedRune

It makes the thread pointless tho

stevepdodson_ESO888 · February 2017

Pibbles wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

DagmarSLNY wrote: »

Technically all expansions are DLC but not all DLC are expansions.

Yes, technically all expansions are "downloadable content" (DLC).
And this is why promising the quarterly DLC with ESO+ made people expecting expansions included. Having no DLC (according to the definition of ZOS) actually devaluates ESO+ now. Accordingly, many subscribers will stop subbing.

Yes, the sub can be seen to be meaningless now, because ZOS can (attempt to) reclassify digital content at will, and once they've done this once and succeeded, they are likely to do this again. The sub does net Crowns, but I personally have never spent mine, the Crown Shop stuff is all ephemera IMO, e.g. I still ride my original Paint Horse. Crafting bag is useful but hardly worth 100ukp a year. And when you're max level and Master Crafter, the boosts are meaningless. Whilst I do have a sub, when my son started playing, we bought a load of Crowns in the sale, then bought the DLC in Crown Sales, because by then I'd already seen the sub was rather meaningless. When my current 6 month sub expires I shall not renew it, as it now has no value.

I want to again point out that for anyone living in the EU, there is no distinction between DLC and Expansion, it's all legally classed as digital content, and IMO ZOS will come unstuck here in the EU over this. At some point someone is going to challenge this decision from ZOS.

So for us EU people, the OP's question is moot. We don't care what ZOS answer to this (if they bother), it's what the law says that matters and that's very clear, there's no difference. In the USA it could vary on a state by state basis but I think Australia are as tough on this as us EU people.

big class action lawsuit brough by EU ESO+ subscribers should sort that out

Majic · February 2017

DLC = What ZOS defines as DLC.

EXPANSION = What ZOS defines as an expansion.

Hope that helps.