Non FOTM Hybrids can be fun!

OldGamerESO · January 2017

I was feeling like a bit of a meta-slave recently and decided to take on of my parked characters (level 30 nightblade) and have some fun with her. So I didn't go look up a guide or optimize my attributes or CP. I wanted a sneaky character for Thieves Guild, Ledgermain and Dark Brotherhood. I decided that she would have (basically) little/no AOE skills but (strongish) single target attacks. I made her with enough magicka/magicka regen (CP and attributes) for (nearly) infinite cloak, a little in health, most stuff in stamina. I decided to sacrifice max dps for max stealthiness (2 sets + race + vampire).

So much fun! I haven't logged in my other characters in a week. I feel no pressure to go run pledges or farm for a sharpened staff or farm mats for gold. My level is hardly even moving because I am not in a public dungeon mowing down mobs. Killing a group means a juggling act of cloak, stealth attacks, ambush, poison, etc. Doing a public dungeon is *hard*. Killing CC immune bosses is *hard*. Sneaking and doing assassinations, stealing and lock picking always feels like I am one second away from getting caught. It is like playing a whole new game. Figuring out how to pull off some of these Black Sacrament assassinations is quite a fun challenge.

Anyway, I just thought I would share this experience. So much of the forum posting is so over-the-top negative that I wonder if we are playing the same game.

Turelus · January 2017

MOTD normally means Message of the Day, were you looking for FOTM which is Flavour of the Month and the normal term for a meta build?

OldGamerESO · January 2017

Turelus wrote: »

MOTD normally means Message of the Day, were you looking for FOTM which is Flavour of the Month and the normal term for a meta build?

LOL Yes... That's funny

I meant FOTM. Thanks I have fixed the title.

Tandor · January 2017

OldGamerESO wrote: »

I was feeling like a bit of a meta-slave recently and decided to take on of my parked characters (level 30 nightblade) and have some fun with her. So I didn't go look up a guide or optimize my attributes or CP. I wanted a sneaky character for Thieves Guild, Ledgermain and Dark Brotherhood. I decided that she would have (basically) little/no AOE skills but (strongish) single target attacks. I made her with enough magicka/magicka regen (CP and attributes) for (nearly) infinite cloak, a little in health, most stuff in stamina. I decided to sacrifice max dps for max stealthiness (2 sets + race + vampire).

So much fun! I haven't logged in my other characters in a week. I feel no pressure to go run pledges or farm for a sharpened staff or farm mats for gold. My level is hardly even moving because I am not in a public dungeon mowing down mobs. Killing a group means a juggling act of cloak, stealth attacks, ambush, poison, etc. Doing a public dungeon is *hard*. Killing CC immune bosses is *hard*. Sneaking and doing assassinations, stealing and lock picking always feels like I am one second away from getting caught. It is like playing a whole new game. Figuring out how to pull off some of these Black Sacrament assassinations is quite a fun challenge.

Anyway, I just thought I would share this experience. So much of the forum posting is so over-the-top negative that I wonder if we are playing the same game.

I wonder that all the time.

KochDerDamonen · January 2017

Encouraged a friend to try building Night Mother's (looted one, not the crafted one) and 3x Night Terror on his fresh-ish Khajiit NB, and yeah he's been pretty much smash-and-grabbing all over the place and having a good time.

It's unfortunate in a way that this sort of build has no boons whatsoever to participating in group or otherwise more combat intensive content, but I do much prefer the way we have things here over GW2's whole "everyone is a dps + utility" mentality. This is the reason people have for disliking "hybrid" builds, though. Outside of group dungeons/pvp, most people around you probably have little care for how many points you have in stam/mag

ParaNostram · January 2017

Screw the meta I've been playing a pet sorc since beta

(took a few breaks)

DragonBound · January 2017

Man hybrids are always fun, the issue is they are just not built for endgame stuff because you loose out on dps since stats in stam increase stam dps and magicka increases magicka dps, hopefully we will see something in the future. But for everything else they are great, maybe even pvp to an extent.

crashen17b14_ESO · January 2017

My main is a vampire breton magblade. For anything involving other players, he is a healer. For solo? He is a stealthy assassin. One bar is pure magblade blood magic, the other is all about stealth and the melee-magic attacks. Sacraments are fun, heists arent bad, and burglarizing cities are a blast.

For burglary, i generally have a "no witnesses, no victims" policy. I do everything in my power to avoid being seen, and if i am caught, i incapacitate the person and book it. At first its kind of boring, but inevitably i get a decent bounty, or a load of valuable stolen items, and thats when things get intense.

Also, blade of woe is super fun out in the world. I love creeping through delves silently taking out bad guys.

The_Duke · January 2017

Hybrids can be successful in PVP if played right. It just doesnt work in the toxic PVE environment.

lillybit · January 2017

My very first character was a hybrid NB, just because I didn't know any better. Came from the previous Elder Scrolls games and had always played sneaky characters with a pretty even distribution of mag/stam/health, so just carried on and did the same on here.

Only played her through the main quest before I changed account and started again so never got to end game stuff but I really enjoyed it. I have a stam NB now and it's just the same!

mr_wazzabi · January 2017

Non FOTM builds can be fun and also viable if built correctly.

Here's my melee magicka nb flawless vma

https://youtu.be/yt7_iLymG_Y

Here's my magicka templar tank/dps hybrid. I solo vet dungeons with this build too and never have to wait to queue for dailies. Also vma flawless run

https://youtu.be/MuccvxZrt4o

ADarklore · January 2017

I was working on leveling a Hybrid Bosmer Templar, running Pelinals and NMG, and even though I was able to get my WD pretty high, I still found myself taking forever to kill things. I wanted to make the character a sneaky bow-wielding spell caster, but with having to distribute CP in a way that would buff both spells AND weapons, things just don't seem to work very well. I mean, sure, I can kill things and even solo public dungeon bosses, but again, it takes forever to do. I ended up having to run Spell Cost Reduction enchants on two of my jewelry just so I wouldn't run out of Magicka- and that's with even using Channeled Focus. With CP I had to sacrifice Spell/Weapon crit damage in order to buff Spell and Weapon damage, along with having to spare CP for buffing healing and DOTs. Plus, running 5 Medium and 2 Light, I've lost a LOT of Magicka regen and spell cost reduction, but, I've maintained the sneaky aspect; even though my Snipe damage now sucks. *sigh*

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

I was working on leveling a Hybrid Bosmer Templar, running Pelinals and NMG, and even though I was able to get my WD pretty high, I still found myself taking forever to kill things. I wanted to make the character a sneaky bow-wielding spell caster, but with having to distribute CP in a way that would buff both spells AND weapons, things just don't seem to work very well. I mean, sure, I can kill things and even solo public dungeon bosses, but again, it takes forever to do. I ended up having to run Spell Cost Reduction enchants on two of my jewelry just so I wouldn't run out of Magicka- and that's with even using Channeled Focus. With CP I had to sacrifice Spell/Weapon crit damage in order to buff Spell and Weapon damage, along with having to spare CP for buffing healing and DOTs. Plus, running 5 Medium and 2 Light, I've lost a LOT of Magicka regen and spell cost reduction, but, I've maintained the sneaky aspect; even though my Snipe damage now sucks. *sigh*

I really think 'hybrid' only works as a Tanking prospect.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2017

I always say create what you like and have fun doing it or the game will become a bore and you will start to dislike it for all of the community related issues that arise from playing end game content.

Right now my DK is a balance build DPS/Tank. Focusing on fire damage for my DPS side and my tank side is focus on threat and survival. I start off using my S&S and than I use the staff once the enemies health is at about 50%.

I like the build it provides me quite a bit of flexibility.

caperon · January 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

I was working on leveling a Hybrid Bosmer Templar, running Pelinals and NMG, and even though I was able to get my WD pretty high, I still found myself taking forever to kill things. I wanted to make the character a sneaky bow-wielding spell caster, but with having to distribute CP in a way that would buff both spells AND weapons, things just don't seem to work very well. I mean, sure, I can kill things and even solo public dungeon bosses, but again, it takes forever to do. I ended up having to run Spell Cost Reduction enchants on two of my jewelry just so I wouldn't run out of Magicka- and that's with even using Channeled Focus. With CP I had to sacrifice Spell/Weapon crit damage in order to buff Spell and Weapon damage, along with having to spare CP for buffing healing and DOTs. Plus, running 5 Medium and 2 Light, I've lost a LOT of Magicka regen and spell cost reduction, but, I've maintained the sneaky aspect; even though my Snipe damage now sucks. *sigh*

First, hybrids work only in PVP, for PVE they do everything just worse than a pure class other than tanking (tanks are kind of hybrids already).

I have a Stamsorc that play as an hybid (trainee + pelinal) in PVP. With pelinnal you want to build for max weapon damage for get the most of pelinal and probably play in Azura, since CP split harms you a lot more. In Azura you don't hit as hard as a pure build but diference is a lot less than in true flame.

BTW, remember that pelinal only equalizes weapon and spell dmage, not weapon and spell crit, so you don't really want any crit other than maybe the thief (it bufs both) but i usually use the warrior.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2017

Fun? Yes. Effective? No.

And this game has allways rewarded effective over fun.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Properly built hybrids are only non-viable in HM VAA/VMOL. Everywhere else they are fine - they meet the requirement to complete the content. Keep in mind a DPS requirement for completing, say, VSO is not that high. Hybrids have other issues, their lower DPS not being one of the top concerns IMO.

Issues that keep hybrids locked out of aforementioend content:
-Inefficiency of critical bonuses and stat bonuses
-Sub 900 CP
-How Pelinal's boosts your off-damage stat
-Inefficiency of gaining common raid buffs
-Tremendously high gear requirement and skill cap

People really need to stop making judgement on builds/concepts they haven't experimented through & through with.

ADarklore · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Properly built hybrids are only non-viable in HM VAA/VMOL. Everywhere else they are fine - they meet the requirement to complete the content. Keep in mind a DPS requirement for completing, say, VSO is not that high. Hybrids have other issues, their lower DPS not being one of the top concerns IMO.

People really need to stop making judgement on builds/concepts they haven't experimented through & through with.

Like I said in my earlier post, does my build work, yes... but does it take an extended period of time to beat enemies, YES, can you solo an open-world boss with it, doubtful. The problem with Hybrid builds is not only that it does far less damage, but it also requires a lot more intensive resource management. But, if you want to play with added content difficulty built right into your build, then a Hybrid build might just be for you.

dodgehopper_ESO · January 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Properly built hybrids are only non-viable in HM VAA/VMOL. Everywhere else they are fine - they meet the requirement to complete the content. Keep in mind a DPS requirement for completing, say, VSO is not that high. Hybrids have other issues, their lower DPS not being one of the top concerns IMO.

People really need to stop making judgement on builds/concepts they haven't experimented through & through with.

Like I said in my earlier post, does my build work, yes... but does it take an extended period of time to beat enemies, YES, can you solo an open-world boss with it, doubtful. The problem with Hybrid builds is not only that it does far less damage, but it also requires a lot more intensive resource management. But, if you want to play with added content difficulty built right into your build, then a Hybrid build might just be for you.

I think it just depends what 'Hybrid' means which is why I said a Tank 'hybrid' is perfectly viable. My Argonian Nightblade for instance is currently 64 points in magic, and operates as a tank. He has plenty of health, and plenty of magic, and moderate stamina. Nevertheless because of his regeneration and because of the utility derived from stamina skills I really do operate as a Hybrid. I really think it all depends what is meant. The character is wearing gold gear and runes as well as max cp, so I'm certain that all helps. I do think it is a lot more difficult though to build toward dps that fires magic and stamina damage, with a focus on that damage. In the Argonian Nightblade example, if I were to swap in Pelinals it would hurt my magic damage, and decrease survivability.

I'd like to add that I can think of plenty of Hybrid Templar examples but once again they are tanks built more around regeneration and sun shield usage. I'm not suggesting you can't do content with someone who is DPS Stam/Mag but trying to do both is harder than not. I'm simply offering to people the point that the Tank role is a great way for people to dabble in both realms of Stamina and Magicka comfortably, and of course this is all colored by point of view. Everyone should be using both pools after all.

NoFlash · January 2017

For questing you can be any build tho. If this was about pvp. Then you would get rolled and rage Cuz going away from meta just isn't viable

ADarklore · January 2017

EvoAZN wrote: »

For questing you can be any build tho. If this was about pvp. Then you would get rolled and rage Cuz going away from meta just isn't viable

Yes... and no. There are many pure DPS builds that can solo open-world bosses, I've yet to hear of any DPS hybrids that can do so. So Yes, you can solo general quests as a DPS Hybrid, it will take longer to do because of lower DPS, but it is viable. But, can you do what other pure DPS builds can do, like solo open-world bosses, probably not. So it all depends on what you want to do and what you're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

hmsdragonfly · January 2017

Hybrid builds will work in vet Dungeons and PvP if you know what you are doing

They may not work on some vet Trials, though.

You can achieve 36k DPS with a hybrid build.

It is possible.

hmsdragonfly · January 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

For questing you can be any build tho. If this was about pvp. Then you would get rolled and rage Cuz going away from meta just isn't viable

Yes... and no. There are many pure DPS builds that can solo open-world bosses, I've yet to hear of any DPS hybrids that can do so. So Yes, you can solo general quests as a DPS Hybrid, it will take longer to do because of lower DPS, but it is viable. But, can you do what other pure DPS builds can do, like solo open-world bosses, probably not. So it all depends on what you want to do and what you're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/
Slot something out for vigor and you can solo open-world bosses.
Don't be too close-minded

ADarklore · January 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

For questing you can be any build tho. If this was about pvp. Then you would get rolled and rage Cuz going away from meta just isn't viable

Yes... and no. There are many pure DPS builds that can solo open-world bosses, I've yet to hear of any DPS hybrids that can do so. So Yes, you can solo general quests as a DPS Hybrid, it will take longer to do because of lower DPS, but it is viable. But, can you do what other pure DPS builds can do, like solo open-world bosses, probably not. So it all depends on what you want to do and what you're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/
Slot something out for vigor and you can solo open-world bosses.
Don't be too close-minded

Ah, but there lies the catch, you have to deal with that nasty PvP stuff that most PvE players want no part of. It also requires that you basically min/max your Hybrid builds, which defeats the entire purpose of going Hybrid IMO. Most people want to play a Hybrid for fun, not to still be limited to min/maxing their builds just to accomplish what pure builds can do so much easier. I created mine because I wanted a fun character that could do both spells and weapon damage... but I didn't want to be limited to min/maxing in order to be successful with it; to me, that takes the FUN out of the build because it adds its own limitation back into an already limited system. By successful I mean being able to do the same things pure builds do in PvE questing, including soloing open-world bosses. However, it appears to be successful in that, you have to min/max your Hybrid build... which goes against my purpose of creating a Hybrid in the first place.

hmsdragonfly · January 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

EvoAZN wrote: »

For questing you can be any build tho. If this was about pvp. Then you would get rolled and rage Cuz going away from meta just isn't viable

Yes... and no. There are many pure DPS builds that can solo open-world bosses, I've yet to hear of any DPS hybrids that can do so. So Yes, you can solo general quests as a DPS Hybrid, it will take longer to do because of lower DPS, but it is viable. But, can you do what other pure DPS builds can do, like solo open-world bosses, probably not. So it all depends on what you want to do and what you're willing to sacrifice in order to do it.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content/
Slot something out for vigor and you can solo open-world bosses.
Don't be too close-minded

Ah, but there lies the catch, you have to deal with that nasty PvP stuff that most PvE players want no part of. It also requires that you basically min/max your Hybrid builds, which defeats the entire purpose of going Hybrid IMO. Most people want to play a Hybrid for fun, not to still be limited to min/maxing their builds just to accomplish what pure builds can do so much easier. I created mine because I wanted a fun character that could do both spells and weapon damage... but I didn't want to be limited to min/maxing in order to be successful with it; to me, that takes the FUN out of the build because it adds its own limitation back into an already limited system. By successful I mean being able to do the same things pure builds do in PvE questing, including soloing open-world bosses. However, it appears to be successful in that, you have to min/max your Hybrid build... which goes against my purpose of creating a Hybrid in the first place.

All stam builds require vigor to heal anyway. There's just as much need of min-maxing as in any other pure build, I don't see your point here. Min-max'd pure builds can pull out 36k DPS, min-max'd hybrid builds can pull out 36k DPS. Non-min-max'd pure builds can't pull out 36k DPS, non-min-max'd hybrid builds can't pull out 36k DPS.
Yes, it is easier to play and to create a pure build, yes, that's true. That's the catch. But just be open-minded, there are properly built hybrids that can do well out there, yes they are rare, yes it's hard to play and build one, but they are there.

Bladerunner1 · January 2017

I have to agree with the people who say playing a hybrid can both be fun and work well in vet dungeons, especially if you're learning the dungeon.

I started playing a beginner meta Stamblade build before Imperial City with bow/dual wield, hundings, agility, Molag Kena shoulder and NMG. Talk about a deranged hard-mode play style. My character could dish loads of damage but had the survivability of a gnat, especially since I was new to the dungeons. My character's death toll stayed pretty bad in dungeons for months since I didn't have much time to invest in the game and couldn't shake the feeling I was a red-circle-of-doom casual player.

When Pelinal's Aptitude came out I stacked weapon damage as high as possible and went with Dual wield swords / Dual wield daggers, and 5580 buffed weapon damage with molag kena and briarthorns active. Suddenly I could effectively use the nightblade skills that were self-healing / damage-dealing skills and I didn't die in dungeons much afterward.

My trash mob DPS actually went up by a lot. The peak single target DPS dropped 25%, but the average single target dps was a lot higher since I wasn't dead on the floor.

Cadbury · January 2017

Hybrids are fun to mess around with. But at the end of the day, most end up gravitating toward a build found on a website or endorsed by streamers.

"Forget it, Jake. Its Meta town"

OldGamerESO · February 2017

I guess it really depends on the content you want to do. I don't think many people do trials, even normal ones. Only ESO developers really know. When people on the forums talk about what is and isn't "viable" in PvE they always reference trials as if that is all that matters. I think most people are in a couple of random guilds that don't do trials and a few merchant guilds that also don't do trials. They do normal dungeons and maybe a vet pledge a couple times a week. What they mostly do is open world, delves, World Bosses with pickup group, dolmens, questing and farming. For that content you can pretty much do it any way you want and have fun with it.