dday3six wrote: »

iirc, it was a Nioh dev that coined the term "masocore" when talking about the difficulty of that game. It's certainly a selling point for games of a particular persuasion, and while I might enjoy that. I highly doubt the majority of ESO's playerbase would.

The bulk of ESO's content has been thoroughly diluted, and that seems to be the path ZOS has choosen for the future. I doubt they'd pivot on that without a better revenue stream to push them in that direction.

Not sure if they're the ones that coined the term, but it's what inspired me to use that term. Should I expect to run into you in there?

Artis wrote: »

Excuse me? And you have EVERYTHING ELSE. Last few updates are for casuals. There was no new difficult content since the Thieves guild. And that DLC brought way more easy content than difficult too. I just hope we won't have another useless zone with just quests and and oneshottable bosses (which you can either oneshot yourself or zerg with a huge group). That's not fun. At least, let each DLC have something difficult. It will be like 1% of the DLC, so baddies have nothing to complain about.

Yeah it would be sweet to have the whole zone difficult. As in, to have one DLC catering just to players who like difficult stuff. But ok, zos wants to sell their DLCs, so let's have a compromise - let DLCs have something for everyone. Isn't that awesome and fair?

Also, whoever said that people want to relax in game. You know, that's how some of us relax. Simply grinding/killing things that can't even hit back is not relaxing or fun. Overcoming something - that's fun and relaxing. For some of us. Sure, others would rather kill children and critters. But can we respect each others way of having fun and have new content for everyone?

No new difficult content since the thieves guild? [snip]
Shadows of the hist isn't a thing, rite guys.

[snip]

Because the majority of the game does not cater to you, the majority of this DLC must is imperialism at it's finest. You wanna solve the entire problem and not just demand the game pander to you? Argue for a better difficulty system then we have. That I can get behind, might genuinely fix some of the issues on both sides, and give depth to a system so designers dont -have- to choose.

[edited for baiting/insult]

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw (Because I dun fugged up the quote function)

Craglorn was nerfed because as much as you cry for it, nobody played it. Too little incentive, too difficult to go through, and required a group. It was -clunkily made-, not to mention far too difficult for the effort. And I guarentee you. If you increased the difficulty to what it was in 2014, people would stop running the content again. Because it's too much hassle for a chance at a drop that they can sell.

ICP and WGT are still -annoying-, and that's all they ever were. If you tell me your going through those with no death every run then I call bull. But even then, they arrent annoying because difficult mechanics. Their difficult because they keep adding more moving parts to dungeon mechanics, again, how well you can spin plates determin your success.

Nobody liked the grind Gold and Silver was. Nobody. Nobody liked geting two shot by mobs harder than Molag Bal and quite frankly those had to get axed so that questing wasn't as railroady.

As for SOTH. Two statements.

One. "Why did the healer get hit with hallucination after the totem spawned and Chudan spawned?"

Two. "Why does the Dunmer boss from COS one shot me when he's slid across the room?"

This game needs refined alot more before it'll be worth being difficult, and even then, what you attribute to a casual conspiracy isn't. Good grief, man. (PS. Consider that maybe, just maybe, it was nerfed because it wasn't being played, because they werrent happy with -why- it was difficult, ect, ect.)

Again, I have no problem with difficult when the system you make difficult in, is balanced well. This is one of the few games where I've thought "So I didn't pack my spanner and now I'm screwed, thanks." I think this game needs refined and focused to where -build- isn't an issue. I think if your going to make difficult content, you should need to rely on your skill with your tools, not what tools you bring.

Make -fun- content first, find ways to tweak it to make it difficult -later-. Or dont do it at all. Just because you enjoy poorly made stuff, because it's difficult, does not mean we must all like it.

You are mixing so many issues that it really is hard to know how to debate at this point. I will stand by my original premise that the devs do a lot of stuff, but catering to the elite players in this game is not one of them.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw (Because I dun fugged up the quote function)

Craglorn was nerfed because as much as you cry for it, nobody played it. Too little incentive, too difficult to go through, and required a group. It was -clunkily made-, not to mention far too difficult for the effort. And I guarentee you. If you increased the difficulty to what it was in 2014, people would stop running the content again. Because it's too much hassle for a chance at a drop that they can sell.

ICP and WGT are still -annoying-, and that's all they ever were. If you tell me your going through those with no death every run then I call bull. But even then, they arrent annoying because difficult mechanics. Their difficult because they keep adding more moving parts to dungeon mechanics, again, how well you can spin plates determin your success.

Nobody liked the grind Gold and Silver was. Nobody. Nobody liked geting two shot by mobs harder than Molag Bal and quite frankly those had to get axed so that questing wasn't as railroady.

As for SOTH. Two statements.

One. "Why did the healer get hit with hallucination after the totem spawned and Chudan spawned?"

Two. "Why does the Dunmer boss from COS one shot me when he's slid across the room?"

This game needs refined alot more before it'll be worth being difficult, and even then, what you attribute to a casual conspiracy isn't. Good grief, man. (PS. Consider that maybe, just maybe, it was nerfed because it wasn't being played, because they werrent happy with -why- it was difficult, ect, ect.)

Again, I have no problem with difficult when the system you make difficult in, is balanced well. This is one of the few games where I've thought "So I didn't pack my spanner and now I'm screwed, thanks." I think this game needs refined and focused to where -build- isn't an issue. I think if your going to make difficult content, you should need to rely on your skill with your tools, not what tools you bring.

Make -fun- content first, find ways to tweak it to make it difficult -later-. Or dont do it at all. Just because you enjoy poorly made stuff, because it's difficult, does not mean we must all like it.

You are mixing so many issues that it really is hard to know how to debate at this point. I will stand by my original premise that the devs do a lot of stuff, but catering to the elite players in this game is not one of them.

Maybe because the issues with difficulty are as intertangled as much as they are with many.

Eitherway. I stand by my statements, if you liked Craglorn back in 2014, if everyone who says they did actually did, it wouldn't have needed a rework. It'd be popular enough to where it'd still be played, and Murkmire wouldn't have been scrapped -because- Craglorn was so unpopular.

@Doctordarkspawn
Actually I did like Craglorn back in the day. I first went there at vet rank 5 or 6 after finishing up gold and silver. I remember spending a lot of time on some of the delve bosses, and it was the first place that made me constructively analyze my build and begin to work with others (it's an MMO afterall). Mostly, because I realized I wasn't doing the DPS (a new term to me at the time) that i thought I was. The dungeons required a semi proper group to complete, and they were challenging and interesting. They were also a decent stepping stone to some of the harder 4 man dungeons at that time, something the game is severely lacking right now. (We agree on the need for 3 tiers of difficulty).

I ran craglorn the other day for the first time in a while, mostly to get the skyshards, and it was a complete joke. I killed the dwarven spider boss in like 10 seconds by myself, the same boss that took a few hours to kill the first time. Craglorn is beyond unplayable for me right now. It's a faceroll. Considering I spent prob 5-6 months mostly playing there after it was released, yeah, I would say it was a bad change. In terms of replayabitly, well how many times do you really replay PVE quests. For me, 2-3 toons is plenty.

As for the new content, I hope they dont make it a faceroll. I know the overland is never going to be that tough so RPers can ride around and look at the scenery, but I hope that the vet levels of the dungons and trials will be frankly harder than what we saw with SOTH. ICP and WGT were MUCH harder on release than either of the SOTH dungeons. Most good players had to play them 3-4 times before they got a clear. I remember spending like 5-6 hours straight on WGT HM the first time. Now, they are complete jokes (after nerfs from forum tears). SOTH dungeons did not take more than a couple hours to clear vet HM the first time. The only piece of content that I have seen where maybe they overreached just a bit was VMOL HM. The vast majority of players are never going to clear that place as it stands, but I am also not too concerned about as there is more than enough content for the casual.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

I'm not suggesting the typical more health approach when it comes to difficulty. I would like to see adds that work together, and combo off of one another. I would like to see adds that CC you, that interrupt and block your attacks. I would like to see attacks that are irresistible (goes through damage shields), as well abilities that are un-dodgeable, and un-blockable. Make us pay attention, and react. Make it so you don't need BiS gear to kill these enemies, but make it so they can still hurt, and kill people with max CP.

[edited to remove bait and quote]

trbrelinskib14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

No.

You have Maelstrom Arena, VMOL, Shadows of the hist, and all repeatable content for the past year geared toward the hardcore player. And all but VMOL, geared toward raiders has been forgotten or universally reviled. Do I want all the content to be *** easy? No, but I'm tired of geting virtually ignored by a dev team only lisening to people who want the game to be difficult, despite whether or not the difficult content is designed -well-.

Lets be honest, if you loved 2014 Craglorn you'd have played it when it was difficult.

Stop the imperialism and greed. If this does have dungeons, let them be casual dungeons. Your not cool by demanding difficulty. And quite frankly, I'll take interesting, memorable, and fun over difficult any day. This game has suffered too long by lisening to these players who are willing to sacrifice -fun-, even other players fun, for the sake of success and having that success mean something.

What game are you playing? If the dev team listed to the people that wanted this game to be difficult, then we would not have had blanket nerfs to virtually every piece of content over the last 2 years. Craglorn? Nefed. ICP and WGT? Nerfed so hard its laughable. Every gold and silver Zone? Dont get me started. There are two difficult pieces of content left in this game, VMOL-HM and VMA. By difficult, I mean it takes progression. SOTH dungeons are tricky, but most people that are properly built will clear on their first or second run.

By "properly built" you mean broken build, exploiting an imbalance in the game. I keep hearing people complaining about nerfs... when really what's happening is the build they found exploited an imbalance in the game that wasn't intended and was fixed... not nerfed. So now you end up being balanced and you call it a nerf because you don't feel all powerful... They nerf stuff that is out of spec with the rest of the abilities...as in not balanced and over performing compared to the other abilities.

You know, just because someone is wearing decent great doesn't mean they're wearing some "broken" OP 360 no-scope headshot kind of gear. They're simply saying wear item sets that make sense, and use the food and abilities that suit your play style. Saying we want more difficult content in order to boost our self esteem, and we only succeed because we're cheating (people that use basic game mechanics such as animation cancelling are cheaters apparently), is a pretty weak argument. [snip]

[edited for insult]

trbrelinskib14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

No.

You have Maelstrom Arena, VMOL, Shadows of the hist, and all repeatable content for the past year geared toward the hardcore player. And all but VMOL, geared toward raiders has been forgotten or universally reviled. Do I want all the content to be *** easy? No, but I'm tired of geting virtually ignored by a dev team only lisening to people who want the game to be difficult, despite whether or not the difficult content is designed -well-.

Lets be honest, if you loved 2014 Craglorn you'd have played it when it was difficult.

Stop the imperialism and greed. If this does have dungeons, let them be casual dungeons. Your not cool by demanding difficulty. And quite frankly, I'll take interesting, memorable, and fun over difficult any day. This game has suffered too long by lisening to these players who are willing to sacrifice -fun-, even other players fun, for the sake of success and having that success mean something.

What game are you playing? If the dev team listed to the people that wanted this game to be difficult, then we would not have had blanket nerfs to virtually every piece of content over the last 2 years. Craglorn? Nefed. ICP and WGT? Nerfed so hard its laughable. Every gold and silver Zone? Dont get me started. There are two difficult pieces of content left in this game, VMOL-HM and VMA. By difficult, I mean it takes progression. SOTH dungeons are tricky, but most people that are properly built will clear on their first or second run.

By "properly built" you mean broken build, exploiting an imbalance in the game. I keep hearing people complaining about nerfs... when really what's happening is the build they found exploited an imbalance in the game that wasn't intended and was fixed... not nerfed. So now you end up being balanced and you call it a nerf because you don't feel all powerful... They nerf stuff that is out of spec with the rest of the abilities...as in not balanced and over performing compared to the other abilities.

@trbrelinskib14_ESO

By "properly built" I mean using a gear setup and skills that actually compliment one another and are suited to the role you chose. I don't know where you are getting all this stuff about builds exploiting a game imbalance. This has nothing to do with the actual nerfs to the content, things having less health and/or doing less damage, thus making them easier to complete. This is exactly what happened to VWGT and VICP. Right or wrong, these dungeons have had their difficulty changed by the developers. If you run them with the exact same build now as you did a year ago, they are much easier to clear now. Almost nothing in these dungeons can one-shot you anymore. A lot of people I know, myself included, wishes they wouldnt have done that, but rather, added a middle ground for difficulty.

@Doctordarkspawn

I really dont think much productive will ever come from our discussions, but we obviously disagree about where we would like things from a difficulty standpoint. I don't know if I am a massochist, (looking at the title), but I prefer content that can't be cleared the first time your run it. VMA probably took me 15-20 hours to clear the first time. VMOL, 1-2 months, VMOL HM about 4 months. Some people enjoy the progression, others do not. Neither group is correct, which is why I think ZOS should do a better job of having both more difficulty levels and preparing players to step up in difficulty. One of the biggest problems we have in ESO in my opinion is that there is too much of a power gap between normal and vet mode.

In any event, however, there are two points I would like to make. First, I don't see how players like myself hoping that the vet content be challenging affects you in the slightest. There is a face roll mode, its called normal. Second, I am the second person that you declared "unfit" whatever that means to comment on a topic because we didnt agree with you. Not the way to win an argument, but apparently a decent way to have your posts removed on the forums.

Edit: Also, I know lots of RPers that like to ride around and look at the scenery. This game is beautiful, and you will never hear me suggest this is a bad thing, but I also dont necessarily think that all overland content should be trivial to clear.

Darth_Savage wrote: »

OP, if you are looking for masochismore take a break from ESO and go check out the Dark Souls series. I have never felt such a sense of accomplishment from finishing a game before like I did when I completed those games.

Great suggestion Ashen One/Hunter, but I'm afraid that I've already conquered those games

I'll PM you the next one I plan on tackling.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

trbrelinskib14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

No.

You have Maelstrom Arena, VMOL, Shadows of the hist, and all repeatable content for the past year geared toward the hardcore player. And all but VMOL, geared toward raiders has been forgotten or universally reviled. Do I want all the content to be *** easy? No, but I'm tired of geting virtually ignored by a dev team only lisening to people who want the game to be difficult, despite whether or not the difficult content is designed -well-.

Lets be honest, if you loved 2014 Craglorn you'd have played it when it was difficult.

Stop the imperialism and greed. If this does have dungeons, let them be casual dungeons. Your not cool by demanding difficulty. And quite frankly, I'll take interesting, memorable, and fun over difficult any day. This game has suffered too long by lisening to these players who are willing to sacrifice -fun-, even other players fun, for the sake of success and having that success mean something.

What game are you playing? If the dev team listed to the people that wanted this game to be difficult, then we would not have had blanket nerfs to virtually every piece of content over the last 2 years. Craglorn? Nefed. ICP and WGT? Nerfed so hard its laughable. Every gold and silver Zone? Dont get me started. There are two difficult pieces of content left in this game, VMOL-HM and VMA. By difficult, I mean it takes progression. SOTH dungeons are tricky, but most people that are properly built will clear on their first or second run.

By "properly built" you mean broken build, exploiting an imbalance in the game. I keep hearing people complaining about nerfs... when really what's happening is the build they found exploited an imbalance in the game that wasn't intended and was fixed... not nerfed. So now you end up being balanced and you call it a nerf because you don't feel all powerful... They nerf stuff that is out of spec with the rest of the abilities...as in not balanced and over performing compared to the other abilities.

@trbrelinskib14_ESO

By "properly built" I mean using a gear setup and skills that actually compliment one another and are suited to the role you chose. I don't know where you are getting all this stuff about builds exploiting a game imbalance. This has nothing to do with the actual nerfs to the content, things having less health and/or doing less damage, thus making them easier to complete. This is exactly what happened to VWGT and VICP. Right or wrong, these dungeons have had their difficulty changed by the developers. If you run them with the exact same build now as you did a year ago, they are much easier to clear now. Almost nothing in these dungeons can one-shot you anymore. A lot of people I know, myself included, wishes they wouldnt have done that, but rather, added a middle ground for difficulty.

@Doctordarkspawn

I really dont think much productive will ever come from our discussions, but we obviously disagree about where we would like things from a difficulty standpoint. I don't know if I am a massochist, (looking at the title), but I prefer content that can't be cleared the first time your run it. VMA probably took me 15-20 hours to clear the first time. VMOL, 1-2 months, VMOL HM about 4 months. Some people enjoy the progression, others do not. Neither group is correct, which is why I think ZOS should do a better job of having both more difficulty levels and preparing players to step up in difficulty. One of the biggest problems we have in ESO in my opinion is that there is too much of a power gap between normal and vet mode.

In any event, however, there are two points I would like to make. First, I don't see how players like myself hoping that the vet content be challenging affects you in the slightest. There is a face roll mode, its called normal. Second, I am the second person that you declared "unfit" whatever that means to comment on a topic because we didnt agree with you. Not the way to win an argument, but apparently a decent way to have your posts removed on the forums.

Edit: Also, I know lots of RPers that like to ride around and look at the scenery. This game is beautiful, and you will never hear me suggest this is a bad thing, but I also dont necessarily think that all overland content should be trivial to clear.

I declared you unfit for a very simple reason. I've seen the philosophy you displayed before, and no, nothing -was- going to come of it.

A competative mind will allways reguard things like a competition. That's fine. However, when this is put in the context of design, it's a bad thing. It means that you become less able to please all parties. The content, the repeatable content, in the last year has been from that mindset. And it shows. And considering the needs of the competative are different from the needs of the casual, vastly different, leaning one way and not trying to please both is detrimental.

I dont know many who do Shadows of the Hist anymore. I know plenty of raiders who do VMOL, and even Maelstrom. But not SOTH. The dungeon audience is not the same, and I have allways took issue with the competative player attempting to shove it everywhere, smothering the enjoyment of everyone else in the process.

That's my problem with your view, your method, your want. It comes at the cost of everyone elses. And I'm not willing to pay that, quietly. If they make the content hard, it'll be forgotten by the people it was ment for in a months time, because they have practiced for hours and achieved the goal. And everyone else, either does not play, sacrifices their enjoyment to play, or leaves.

PS. Dunno where your geting the 'Normal' stuff from, this was a thread about overland content as far as I was aware.

TLDR: It affects me because when content is made for you, it is abandoned in a month after you have beaten it. Without sufficient incentive to keep playing, (IE, gear, raid profit, ect) it falls by the wayside. If a difficulty is made for you, all parties are satisfied for years to come. Believe it or not, some people are not satisfied by *** easy to balls hard, some want a middleground. Which you did state, but that begs to question why you arrent advocating for that.