Problem is there are a lot of Elites on the forums which don't even come close to representing the player base that doesn't care about the forums. Every single person I've talked to in-game hates the guild trader system. But of course the Elites want to keep the trading system for obvious reasons.

OMG. Yes please have a single point of interest per major hub points. Having to go through each guild trader is a pain in the butt. I'm also finding that having to meet the guild's quota / week so we can have a guild trader isn't helpful either. At most, I lose money to cover my membership. I don't trade on a regular basis so sales for me isn't consistent enough. But when I do need to sell something to the general public, I'd prefer to have a general trader or auction house rather than sell in-guild.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Sheesh ppl you don't need this and let's look at real life. Can you go to one place and see everyone's price on anything. No

Yes - it's called the internet.

I may not get "everyone's" price, but I get enough prices to know when I am being gouged.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard

Wait so that's what I'm trying to point out as the flaw to "need an AH ideas"

In exactly what you wrote you and many others comprehend a global auction house as a way to collect good deals or bad deals.

Or as you write "know when I am being gouged"

Gotcha. That idea is good but in the proposed change it results in cause and effect.

The effect of having a global auction house players can literally buy up all of a certain type and set a price of their choosing. No one is arguing that they wish to buy high and sell low

It's the opposite. It's an argue to make more money or as you write, find the best deals.


Today you have to go to different resources just like real life. This offers competition and because markets aren't globally shared, it creates many different opportunities. Some good and some bad based on each person point of view.

Price isn't everything first off.
People in general are different but when lumped together, we collectively don't do good in very large groups.

A global auction house will give you info but not without consequence. My point I've hoped to share is that the consequences offset the argument or reason many want it.

You all don't want a global auction house so that all the good deals and inflated by price. You also don't want a global auction house to be undercut or for items to sit and not sale just as much you don't want to be gouged.

Avidspark wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Avidspark wrote: »

Not necessary at all. Every MMO I've ever played that had an auction house, eventually saw every item dropping to just over vendor price, so no, don't want it at all.

Get TTC addon, or even just visit their site, for your listing of items in guild shops. And as advised above, join better guilds.

So you have never played WoW, Swtor, Swg, FF14, Conan or mostly any other populated MMO?

Played WoW, SWTOR, Eberon, and far too many others where that AH killed the economy completely.

Go put forth a little effort, and quit expecting everything handed to you on a platter.

Sorry but wrong.

The economy in WoW is healthy on high pop servers, with most trade goods selling for little more than they have multiple expansion ago when gold was much more difficult to obtain, and while super rare items have seen inflation, that is due to general inflation (increases in gold earned + time + sinks that don't keep up - and largely due to all the free gold the past expansion provided with garrisons, coupled with no increases in the amount of super rare item available) and not the AH.

Economy in SWTOR is pretty terrible for desirable items (though commons crafted items and materials sell for no more, if not less, than they did expansions ago) - but that has everything to do with decisions made by the developers that increased gold (credit) inflows dramatically while reducing / eliminating gold sinks coupled with numerous exploits that affected the economy and were left in game for weeks and months coupled with keeping a very low inflow of desirable items by locking them inside gamble boxes - so again general inflation has caused issues with the market, not the fact the they have an open single maketplace system.

Seems to me the only one that wants everything on a platter are those that want to retain the current system as they always throw out nonsense about how an AH will destroy the market when the truth is they are just scared that an AH would bring increased competition.

I've played WoW. I've played SWtOR, LotRO, Eberon, etc. All of those MMO's have Auction Houses, and in every single one of them, the market is either controlled by a single massive Trade Guild, or a conglomeration of Trade Guilds working together to make sure the entire game economy works to their favor.

The in-game economy on those games sucks, newer Trade Guilds cannot break into the market in any way worth noting, and those Guild Conglomerations use their massive wealth, plus agreements between the Guilds, to fix the Auction house market directly in their favor.

If you think finding an item for a good price (albeit with a bit of hunting for a good deal) is difficult with the Trader System in place now, you have no idea of the frustration and heartbreak you're going to face with an Auction House.

The "Elite Trader Guilds" that you and your ilk keep referencing now, would simply pool their efforts and use their already significant wealth to buy up say... all the Kuta runes or Tempering Alloy's, then would gouge the prices. But then players would HAVE TO pay their exorbitant prices, because those Guild Conglomerations are the only places that have them, even if offered in a centrally located Auction House.

They'd be able to (once again) set extremely high prices, because they've bought up all the available stock, and resell it at a price that gets them the highest "bids".

"But Uriel; I could simply put a Kuta or Tempering Alloy up for sale, and I'd just undercut them! That would fix the market!"

How naive.

They'd simply buy your low-price Kuta or Tempering Alloy (and they'd have the wealth already to make sure that they are the highest "bid"), add it to their own stock, and resell it at a highly marked-up price.

You and your ilk whine and complain about pricing and finding items now. An Auction House would make it much easier to find items, sure; but they'd be controlled by those aforementioned conglomerations of Trading Guilds, and the initial asking prices would be far, far out of your ability to pay for. But, you'd still need those items, so you'd have to find a way to get the money, because there is nowhere else to buy them from.

As I said at the top of this post; I've seen this very thing happen (and it's still going on) in WoW, SWtOR, LotRO, Eberon, and any host of other MMO's with an Auction House.

Frankly, I'd LOVE to keep that sort of price-fixing/gouging out of the ESO game economy.

And an Auction House would do just that, kill the in-game economy.

Moonfish wrote: »

To put it bluntly: Guild Vendor suck and they dont work. Not only because its hard to find a guild with the items you want - forcing to go all around Tamriel looking for that extra Jazbay Grape. It sucks if you are part of a guild with no Guild Merchant. I have several legendary and useful items in my bank. No way to share with the world. Plus all those crazy taxes and guilding asking money. Like many console players I can spend a lot of time without playing the game, wich means guilds will kick me off.

Why not simply have Auction Houses where every one in Tamriel can freely exchange stuff. If one is too much, you can have one for each faction.
Right now if I cant find what I need from the GV near Elder Wood, [snip] it. I wont go around like an old lady in a giant shopping mall.

[Edit for censor bypassing]

join a different guild then. sry but for all the cons of guild traders system, its better then cons of a global auction house. also this puts more realism into the game. the game doesnt take place in 2017 of earth, there is no internet that you can search anywhere on the world to see what someone is selling. the idea of guild traders is, a public market in which someone is hawking the wares for a business. just like how if you wanted to buy a doll from walmart in 1980 you had to go to walmart to buy a doll from walmart. plus i like the idea that you cannot just wave a magick wand and have everything in the world delivered to you. learn some damn patience. your attitude about having to search for what you want is same as some guy getting hired at a business and wanting to be ceo the next day.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The effect of having a global auction house players can literally buy up all of a certain type and set a price of their choosing.

@NewBlacksmurf

Well they "can" - at the theoretical level.

I contend that in 10 years of playing dozens of MMORPG I have NEVER seen it happen, not even once.

And I propose that as you have failed to name one such game where it has happened when I asked you to (the last time you made that same claim) you have never seen it either.

However, if a Trade Guild with 500 Members wanted to do so they could also manage it in the current system. Stand one toon at each Kiosk and buy up all X priced lower than Y; sent them back to the Guild and post them on Guild Kiosk and Yx3.

It can happen in both systems with equal theoretical ease.

I contend it has happened in neither. So let's stop using it as an excuse to discuss meaningful change.

---

So instead of looking at the theoretical pitfalls of the systems lets look at the benefits.

Who benefits from the Trade Kiosk system? Members of established Trade Guilds that can afford a decent Kiosk.

Who benefits from an AH system? EVERYONE, because everyone can trade with equal access to the entire market of customers.

What benefits do customers derive from the current system? None. They may have to travel half way around the world to find what they are looking for, and if they do find it (I have only found what I am looking for approx 40% of the time) they have no way of checking if the price is fair.

What benefits do customers derive from an AH System? All sellers' goods are available to view at the same place, allowing the customer to get a feel for prices, and to find the best price available. There's no need to travel half way around the worlld just to not find what you are looking for.

NOTE: I still don't wan an AH; but every time I see a fanciful scare story about "market rigging" made easy by the AH I come one step closer to wanting one - just so the people spreading misinformation about such systems are exposed for what they are.

And on any objective analysis of trade variables and economic performance an AH is an order of magnitude better than the current system.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard

It's not theoretical tho. It's already happening. Ppl are literally talking in this thread and the other regarding the use of add-ons to price detect which impact it.

I'm not going into naming games because "all games" with a global auction house experience what I'm describing. The list is too long

Regarding trade guilds going to each trader.
Uhm no that's not how it works which is what needs to be understood.

Today no one or any group can go to all guild stores. Only a few have traders but there are literally hundreds of thousands of guild stores.

No one or no group can access them all which is the design intent and beauty of the design.


So who benefits from trade kiosks?
-ppl who want to buy
-ppl in that guild who want an external market
-the guild leaders and officers
-ppl who successfully sell something who profit from their expenses

Who benefits from a global auction house?
Not EVERYONe. Everyone is impacted tho and that's what I'm trying to point out. There are good impacts but what comes with that is also the bad. It's a cause and effect situation that does not address the cries of many.

It's not a good thing or better situation that all players see everything as it literally impacts prices.

See what you're missing is that everyone doesn't play the way everyone else plays.

Who it hurts:
-ppl who don't want a global economy
-ppl who have established a 500 ppl or less economy that best works for those invested within
-ppl who just want to buy occasional items cause now everything is set at higher prices
-it hurts the casual player cause the benefits is now suited for the elite or who can play the most


In short if an auction house was better we wouldn't have the guild store and guild traders

If you go back and read from 2013 the developers talks on their decisions some of what I'm writing is echoed from their actual experiences in many other games.

Some of the devs have been working on games like this since the 1990's and other playing and or working.

You're not introducing a new concept. It's a fully understood and has negative historical impacts.
You also have to understand that the loot in this game is low intentional and that's a design in context to the games economy.

The gold, keys, tel var, ap all play into this larger economy and while I'll agree that are some real concerns around traders, the solution isn't a auction house.

The better solutions are around what exists in realistic governments today. The game could benefit from limiting and monitoring and or taxing or fees around certain depictions and tracking and preventing known trends.

But all this keeps the current structure with better controls to actually address concerns. Maybe even update the guild store UI but not to extend out global searches of inventory and price checking or listings.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Some of the devs have been working on games like this since the 1990's and other playing and or working.

You'd think they'd have learned to stop repeating mistakes that everyone else stopped making a decade ago then, wouldn't you.

All The Best

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm not going into naming games because "all games" with a global auction house experience what I'm describing. The list is too long

@NewBlacksmurf

And yet I have been playing MMORPG for over ten years and have NEVER seen it once.

And the list is so long you can't even find one name on it.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard

If you've only been playing for 10 years then it may contribute to why you've not seen it.

You'd need context of MMO or RPGs online games without this to compare it to games with global auction houses.

So if we look at a game like Dark Age of Camelot which is structured very similar to ESO that can be compared to a newer game like World of Warcraft or Maybe compare the first Ever Quest in the 1990's to Everquest 2 market boards ideas

You literally have to experience and understand prior to in order to "see" the after effects.
Being that you've not been around long enough to have those experiences I get your point of view but that doesn't mean the reality and cause and effect is absent or won't happen.

So you still can't name a game that has the effect you claim is inherent to all games with an AH?

There's a shock... ...not.

And now its my fault because I've "only" been playing MMORPGs for 10+ years.

You see, here's the thing game engine technology and data tracking and management have moved on, even in those ten years, and what may have happened back then (though I reiterate you have sill not presented one single shred of evidence that it did) is less likely to happen now because mitigation mechanisms can be added.

That you still haven't named a game tells me you are spinning an fairytale.

Name a game, present the evidence.

We both know you can't so just admit it.
All The Best

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Fortunately for us Zso went a different direction and decentralized the market in ESO. We can all be grateful.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

And as I have stated numerous times I like that decentralised market, it fits beautifully within the socio-economic setting of the game.

But look at historically comparable markets in the real world and you'll see vast differences to how Zeni have done things.

Most Trade Kiosks would be in major urban areas - because that is where most customer are either based, or pass through. Trade Kiosks on the lonely crossroads in the middle of nowhere would fail, and no one would ever bid on them again. The owner of said Trade Kiosk would be forced to move it to a more favourable trade location. Failing that traders who had failed to secure an existing Kiosk would either pay someone to build them a better situated one, or would build one themselves.

I have no problem with a decentralised market model that is appropriate to the socio-economic setting that the game exists within. Problem is that the current Kiosk system is no more that than a centralised AH is.

I don't want an end to the Kiosk system, I just want a much improved version of it.

One where a player does not have to be in a Trade Guild just to be able to sell. Add in, in each Zone Capital a "Free Trader" where anyone not already in a Trade Guild can list 10 Items per week for Trade and pay a little higher rate of Sales Tax.

More traders selling equals lower prices. Lower prices will, eventually drive down Kiosk prices, leading to more competition as more, smaller Trade Guilds are able to get a foot hold.

Heck, that would be just about enough to have me praising the system to the heavens. I like the concept of the current system, I just think it is abysmally implemented.

All The Best

Meh.

Sell in zone. Go to a guild vendor, get a reasonable idea of the prices for what u want to sell and then undercut them.

Works easy enough for me.