How Sophisticated are Gold Sellers?

UrQuan
UrQuan
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I decided to get my annual anti-money laundering training at work out of the way early this year, and it got me thinking about gold sellers in ESO and other MMOs, selling in-game currency for real world currency. I remember that early on it was a huge problem in ESO, with gold seller spam filling peoples inboxes and drowning out everything else in /zone, but over time ZOS seems to have done a good job of eliminating most of that.

I don't know for sure if it's been eliminated entirely in ESO (I don't have any desire to look for gold seller sites in order to find out if they still sell for ESO), but if it still exists I would imagine it's now much much smaller scale than it was at launch. Hell, even if ZOS hadn't already cracked down hard on gold sellers before then, the switch to B2P and the introduction of the Crown Store would have reduced (but not eliminated) demand for gold anyway.

What I'm wondering, though, is whether gold sellers in ESO and in MMOs in general use similar techniques to the techniques used by money launderers in real life. I'm talking about variants on techniques like smurfing or other forms of structuring (in real life this is where you structure transactions to avoid triggering reporting thresholds etc) and layering (using a complicated series of transactions to disguise the source). The integration stage wouldn't really seem to exist - or at least it wouldn't exist on the in-game currency side of the equation for gold sellers.

Does anyone know if gold sellers do anything like this? Or is it maybe not worth their effort? I've heard that they often don't really care about having accounts banned because they tend to buy accounts with stolen credit cards and such, but even that has a cost associated with it, as I'd assume they're buying those stolen credit cards from someone. But maybe the associated cost isn't high enough for them to go to so much effort to hide their transactions?

I don't know, I'm just curious.
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  • Rohamad_Ali
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    They have entire conversations dedicated to it in the MMO world . It's pretty big and I'm sure they are always looking for new tricks to hide it . It never goes away .
  • yodased
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    Its just as big as it was, but its more concentrated now. You will see items in the guild trader that just dont make sense like 1 rubedite ingot for 450k or a essense of magic for 1mil.

    There are dedicated gold sellers too that basically sell 100k for between 6-8$ instantly to this day.

    They just dont bombard your inbox any ore and the direct transfer is a bit dangerous, so they launder it through stores. Its how its dobe in most mmos really
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
  • Cadbury
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    They've even done interviews with those that run gold selling sites. It takes at least some level of business savy to run an ever changing economic market based around pixilated currency.
    "If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."
  • mb10
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    How would criminals launder by using ESO gold as that's also considered a crime to sell for real life money?
    They wouldn't be cleaning their money that way
  • KochDerDamonen
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    PS4, see spam for it all the time
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  • MaxwellC
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    at-least they're not like runescapes gold sellers lmao, heads would spin if it were.
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  • UrQuan
    UrQuan
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    yodased wrote: »
    Its just as big as it was, but its more concentrated now. You will see items in the guild trader that just dont make sense like 1 rubedite ingot for 450k or a essense of magic for 1mil.

    There are dedicated gold sellers too that basically sell 100k for between 6-8$ instantly to this day.

    They just dont bombard your inbox any ore and the direct transfer is a bit dangerous, so they launder it through stores. Its how its dobe in most mmos really
    Hmm, that makes sense. Trying to avoid detection through guild trader transactions rather than just mailing gold.
    mb10 wrote: »
    How would criminals launder by using ESO gold as that's also considered a crime to sell for real life money?
    They wouldn't be cleaning their money that way
    You misunderstand what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about selling gold in an MMO as a way to launder real money. I'm talking about using variants on the techniques used to launder real money, but using those techniques within an MMO to hide the fact that they're selling gold and avoid bans.
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  • DigitalShibby
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    UrQuan wrote: »
    anti-money laundering

    I too am anti money laundering.

    I talk to my wife about money laundering all the time. She never checks pockets and then we hear those coins clinking around in the dryer.
  • starkerealm
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    My understanding is, yes, the goldsellers are fairly sophisticated, and do spend a fair amount of time figuring out how to avoid the autodetect systems. They even go so far as to post on the forums, occasionally. Remember all those posts in broken English about the character delete limit that popped up right before the transition to Unlimited?

    It wouldn't surprise me if some of the, "help, I've been social banned" posts were also coming off of goldsellers, trying to salvage their accounts, though more likely, those are legitimately people running afoul of the autodetection systems.

    Also, any discussion about the social ban triggers in public will end up on their desk.
  • Jim_Pipp
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    Oh wow - I have always wanted to know (but been too embarrassed to ask) why some items in guild traders are just stupidly priced.

    E.g. Last night I saw a Juliannos staff for 250k (when others were 20k max).

    So the gold seller buys the item (after receiving rl money)?

    I've just been onto one of their websites and it is not just gold for sale, it's any crafting item you can think of.
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  • stevepdodson_ESO888
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    UrQuan wrote: »
    anti-money laundering

    I too am anti money laundering.

    I talk to my wife about money laundering all the time. She never checks pockets and then we hear those coins clinking around in the dryer.

    fortunately for me they are starting to introduce plastic/polymer bank note in UK, so this will be a problem of the past

    however, leaving coins in pockets that get stuck and break the washing machine can still be a nightmare...
  • starkerealm
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    Jim_Pipp wrote: »
    Oh wow - I have always wanted to know (but been too embarrassed to ask) why some items in guild traders are just stupidly priced.

    E.g. Last night I saw a Juliannos staff for 250k (when others were 20k max).

    So the gold seller buys the item (after receiving rl money)?

    I've just been onto one of their websites and it is not just gold for sale, it's any crafting item you can think of.

    Yep, that's one way the skirt detection from sending out too much gold via the mail system.
  • Danikat
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    I suspect there as many different answers as there are gold sellers.

    There are some fascinating articles out there about the elaborate schemes some gold sellers use and the real-life gangs/companies that support it.

    At the other extreme there's the people who get hold of spare accounts or items (e.g. from a friend who quit), sell everything off and list the gold on ebay with the intention of mailing it directly to the buyer. (Or use botting programs/actual farming to get gold on their own account and then sell it on ebay.)

    But obviously the second type doesn't stick around as long as the first type because they get caught much faster.

    If you are interesting I definitely recommend googling it. Its amazing what they get up to.
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  • SydneyGrey
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    Jim_Pipp wrote: »
    Oh wow - I have always wanted to know (but been too embarrassed to ask) why some items in guild traders are just stupidly priced.

    E.g. Last night I saw a Juliannos staff for 250k (when others were 20k max).
    I believe some people do that as a way to expand their inventory. They put something they want to keep on a guild trader site for a ridiculous amount of money that no one will pay, then take the item back later when they have more room in their inventory. I've never done it, but I've heard of it happening.

  • Spottswoode
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    Typically, gold sellers make as much effort to sell as possible with scripting. I don't think they put all that much thought into it unless there's a significant enough market to take advantage of. I see them all the time in FFXIV but they operate pretty openly over there.

    If there's an underground market of sufficient size, one would think they'd find a way to hide their exchanges. If the profit's there criminals will find a way. The auction house thing is something I've always wondered about. (Yes, I know we have guild traders in this game. I'm talking about other games as well.)
    It's amazing how many of these guys flagrantly advertise with Google.
    Edited by Spottswoode on January 24, 2017 12:38PM
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