The flawed mentality surrounding selling, buying and then crafting

Prof_Bawbag · January 2017

I was approached by someone in-game yesterday to craft a full set of gear in the EP style, which I said I was more than happy to craft. At this point, no mention of a fee was mention, just the usual in-depth set of instructions regarding the items I would require to make the gear. Had the discussion remained along those lines, the chances are I would have got the mats from the player and proceeded to make the gear and that would be that. I'd have left any sort of fee at his discretion as I always do if it doesn't involve me having to use CS stones.

However, turns out he was a PvP player and he began telling me how he had sold hundreds of these particular motif pages for large sums to gullible PvEers and so on. At that, I then stated I would need a crafting fee at which point the conversation began to go steadily downhill. Stated he could get others to make the gear free and that I was a scammer. Tried to explain to him, that his logic was flawed. That in his own words he was happy to sell those "motif pages for large sums to gullible PvEers", so if he expected me to pay for his motif pages, thus line his pockets, why wasn't he willing to return some of that gold to the people who lined his pockets?

So basically, why do some people expect us to pay for their time and goods, but expect those buying their items to give up their time and effort free of charge?

Turelus · January 2017

Because people are dumb, like everywhere in everything. I don't like people.

Also poop I just posted in an ESO General Discussion thread... does that mean I have to actually log in now?

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2017

Because (some) PvP players see any kind of interaction with other players as a form of PvP. Taking benefit of people by selling high (or above market prices) is a "win" to them, and they like to brag about it. Taking benefit of you by having you craft for free is another "win" which he tried to achieve by abusing your willingness to help.
He was playing / messing with you like if he was duelling.

Hint : anyone who says he has plenty of people ready to craft for him for free is lying. If he had, he wouldn't be arguing with you about it at all.

Danikat · January 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Because (some) PvP players see any kind of interaction with other players as a form of PvP. Taking benefit of people by selling high (or above market prices) is a "win" to them, and they like to brag about it. Taking benefit of you by having you craft for free is another "win" which he tried to achieve by abusing your willingness to help.
He was playing / messing with you like if he was duelling.

Hint : anyone who says he has plenty of people ready to craft for him for free is lying. If he had, he wouldn't be arguing with you about it at all.

Not just PvP players - some people generally seem to see trading with others as a contest they can "win", sometimes by any means necessary. I've had people do the same to me in other games - we're in the middle of negotiating a trade and they start bragging to me about how they take advantage of other players when trading, as if that's somehow going to impress me and not make me at all suspicious of whether they're trying to do the same to me.

It's not even limited to games. I once put some obsolete computer parts up on Freecycle. Normally on Freecycle people try to persuade you to pick them with something positive "My 3yr old would love this!", "I've been looking for one of these for years!" etc. This time I got one email informing me that some guy would take them (not "Can I have them please?" literally "I will take them all") and going on to inform me that he can make a killing taking parts from "lazy idiots" like myself, assembling obsolete computer and selling them to other "idiots" who are too stupid to know a good machine from a bad one. Needless to say he did not get them and his PC repair business is now on my mental list of local businesses to avoid.

Turelus · January 2017

Danikat wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Because (some) PvP players see any kind of interaction with other players as a form of PvP. Taking benefit of people by selling high (or above market prices) is a "win" to them, and they like to brag about it. Taking benefit of you by having you craft for free is another "win" which he tried to achieve by abusing your willingness to help.
He was playing / messing with you like if he was duelling.

Hint : anyone who says he has plenty of people ready to craft for him for free is lying. If he had, he wouldn't be arguing with you about it at all.

Not just PvP players - some people generally seem to see trading with others as a contest they can "win", sometimes by any means necessary. I've had people do the same to me in other games - we're in the middle of negotiating a trade and they start bragging to me about how they take advantage of other players when trading, as if that's somehow going to impress me and not make me at all suspicious of whether they're trying to do the same to me.

It's not even limited to games. I once put some obsolete computer parts up on Freecycle. Normally on Freecycle people try to persuade you to pick them with something positive "My 3yr old would love this!", "I've been looking for one of these for years!" etc. This time I got one email informing me that some guy would take them (not "Can I have them please?" literally "I will take them all") and going on to inform me that he can make a killing taking parts from "lazy idiots" like myself, assembling obsolete computer and selling them to other "idiots" who are too stupid to know a good machine from a bad one. Needless to say he did not get them and his PC repair business is now on my mental list of local businesses to avoid.

Why would you even inform someone you're going to rip off that you're going to rip them off or that you've ripped off others in the past. I mean... okay back to my "people are dumb" stance I guess.

I mean I have sold items over price or purchased under price in the past in games, and I didn't then brag to the person. I accepted I managed to get a good deal, went off and enjoyed my rewards. Sorry to that person who listed 20 wax at 600g each once.

alephthiago · January 2017

While i do agree with your logic, letting him know from the start about the fee would avoid all that trouble.
The problem is we do too much craft for free, we shouldnt do it, especially when there are motifs involved, but we do it anyway because we want to help people level up faster and etc....

Taleof2Cities · January 2017

I don't do much crafting for other players anymore due to issues similar to this one. Fortunately, my (bad) crafting experiences were limited to crafting non-vet gear.

Another one of those times where you wish you could name and shame in the forums.

Danikat · January 2017

Accusing the person you're trying to trade with of being a scammer is another "trick" traders use to try and get a good deal.

In Guild Wars 1 a common tactic was for traders to identify someone who seemed new or inexperienced at player trading (usually because they were selling something for slightly below the current market value), bombard them with abuse about how they're obviously trying to scam new players because what they're selling isn't worth nearly as much as they want for it and threaten to report them (and claiming of course that this would mean an instant and permanent ban because their scam was so terrible and abusive).

Then they'd make a great show of calming down and concede that maybe, just maybe you're actually just stupid and not deliberately trying to scam anyone and generously offer to do you a great favour by not reporting you IF you allow them to take your "worthless" item off your hands for about 1/2 what you were asking for.

I think it's the same logic as people who go into shops, make up a special offer or drastically (and loudly) misinterpret a real one and then start shouting at one of the staff (often, but not always the youngest and/or smallest one there) about how they're going to report them to Trading Standards, will never shop their again, have never been treated so badly in their life etc. etc.

The idea is to get you to panic, and decide this whole situation is too stressful and you just want it to be over as quickly as possible - which of course means selling to the person who is currently offering on whatever terms they want even though they are the cause of the stress.

The_Protagonist · January 2017

I had two similar experiences while crafting for people, they are clear when giving requirements and toxic when payment is due.

Whenever they say that they had several others that would do it free and without even taking mats, I simply:

Back out of the deal
Return any mats they had provided
Wish them good luck/good bye
Hit Ignore

Then I carry on with my game play as usual, smiling to myself as I imagine their frustration for losing out on a good deal.

If they abuse me, I do not abuse back, If they use profane language against me, I hit ignore and in very rare cases (possibly only once) I report them if they are particularly nasty.

Prof_Bawbag · January 2017

alephthiago wrote: »

While i do agree with your logic, letting him know from the start about the fee would avoid all that trouble.
The problem is we do too much craft for free, we shouldnt do it, especially when there are motifs involved, but we do it anyway because we want to help people level up faster and etc....

I had no intention of charging him and that's why I didn't mention it. Like i said, I like to leave it to the other person to decide unless CS stones are being used or style mats which I would have to buy and in which case, I do mention it from the off. I usually leave it to the other person to buy those style mats, but have on one occasion bought them myself if I don't have enough and this is made clear from the off.

I think some individuals expect others to buy their motifs (who obviously haven't got a crafter themselves), and just expect it to be a one way street. I have also had a very positive experience. Someone was wanting the Draugr style and I had every motif page other than the chest. The person who wanted the gear crafted happened to have a spare one and gave it to me in return for me crafting his gear. Some people do go the extra mile and most people do appreciate crafting that gear works both ways.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2017

unhander_2 wrote: »

I had two similar experiences while crafting for people, they are clear when giving requirements and toxic when payment is due.

Whenever they say that they had several others that would do it free and without even taking mats, I simply:
Back out of the deal

Return any mats they had provided

Wish them good luck/good bye

Hit Ignore

Then I carry on with my game play as usual, smiling to myself as I imagine their frustration for losing out on a good deal.

If they abuse me, I do not abuse back, If they use profane language against me, I hit ignore and in very rare cases (possibly only once) I report them if they are particularly nasty.

Why are the player base so lazy. I mean from just going from level 1 to level 14 thus far I have found 4 different style books. One being Imperial, within minutes of starting the game nevertheless. Why are players so lazy...seriously, just play, have fun, and you will find you seek.

it was like this in other games for me as well. Play, have fund and I found what i seek, or earn in game cash to buy what I sought.

I will continue my journey and hopefully I continue to pick up the style books as I play.

CombatPrayer · January 2017

Screw crafting in this game. I only help friends and sell when I want but if somebody wants something crafted, unless I know them, I generally do not respond unless it is a specific request for research. The way crafting and crafters are treated in this game is outright appalling. When I first started people would not even give me the right amount of mats. I've only seen one tip ever. So now, nobody gets crafts from me. I craft for myself because it's my own desire. When they fix crafting so that we have much better sets on par with dropped ones and when they stop screwing around with these master writs and even make furnishing look to be a bit more promising then I will bother. For now, nope. Too much disrespect. People want you to help them but do not even treat you with respect when you do. EVEN when you help them out with stuff. It's like high usage of crafters in this game and it is not worth the time to get to some station to bother.

Also, logging off when you are in direct communication or hitting ignore are excellent ideas.

Also, any special set and special motif requirement will be costing them the price of the style mat and 2k more minimum for motif and 500-3k for sets. Motifs are very high priced. You want special motifs, you get charged accordingly, unless you are a 'close friend'. They don't like it they can spin on a top for all I care.

Stopnaggin · January 2017

It happens all the time. Yesterday a guy was looking for 50 wax. I gave him 6.5k per, then he proceeded to tell me he could get them at 5k all day long. I happily directed him to do so and went on my merry way.

Mind you this was after I told him 6.5k per and even dropped to 6.2k per. Some people's kids.

Kodrac · January 2017

I make people supply the mats. That's usually a good barometer of how the deal will go down. If they balk at that with the 'do you know how much that will cost me?' line I give them back 'yes, exactly how much it will cost me and this isn't my investment, it's yours'.