Rising Trader Costs

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

You know what happens when it crashes? It cleans out the trash. The "something" that "needs to be done" is "nothing at all", because the bubble popping is just the market self correcting.

The wealth of research out there over the last decade going back as far as the Roman Empire and beyond shows that the concept of a "free market" has always been and will always be a myth.

Why?

Because commodity based markets require currencies, and currencies have never been "free" they have always been controlled by someone to serve someone's interests. And the moment that happens the concept of a "free market" is a dead horse, time to stop beating it. Because the market can be "gamed", "rigged" or undermined by controlling the flows, and levels of currency.

There is not now anywhere on this planet a "free market".
There has never been in the entirety of human history a "free market".
There will never be a "free market".

So the only question that has any meaning is "what type of regulation does the market need" and that has no basis in empirical fact, it is a matter of opinion, usually based on whether or not the current iteration of market regulation works in one's favour or not.

The less regulation a market has the less stable it is. Over regulation can make a market too stable, and it stagnates.

Any market that sees Buyers unable to sell their goods WHERE the Customers are located is a market that is by definition BADLY regulated.

All The Best

Vekoeros · January 2017

This is a prime example of supply and demand, a limited supply with a very high demand makes prices skyrocket.
Now if the purpose of the trade guild is to make the people within the trade guild rich then no cost should be to high.
Half of the trade guilds im in have no problem keeping their trader (in high traffic area's) and also have no problem still keeping 15-20+ mil in the guild bank for just in case something goes wrong.

This is not a zos issue this is a "give me what I want without having to do anything" issue.

I am sorry that other trade guilds are willing to shell out more money for the spot that your guild wanted maybe next time pony up some more of that cash you all have stashed away, or let them see how hard it is to hold that spot for a bit when their coffers run low they will find a less expensive spot.

MasterSpatula · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what happens when it crashes? It cleans out the trash. The "something" that "needs to be done" is "nothing at all", because the bubble popping is just the market self correcting.

The wealth of research out there over the last decade going back as far as the Roman Empire and beyond shows that the concept of a "free market" has always been and will always be a myth.

Why?

Because commodity based markets require currencies, and currencies have never been "free" they have always been controlled by someone to serve someone's interests. And the moment that happens the concept of a "free market" is a dead horse, time to stop beating it. Because the market can be "gamed", "rigged" or undermined by controlling the flows, and levels of currency.

There is not now anywhere on this planet a "free market".
There has never been in the entirety of human history a "free market".
There will never be a "free market".

So the only question that has any meaning is "what type of regulation does the market need" and that has no basis in empirical fact, it is a matter of opinion, usually based on whether or not the current iteration of market regulation works in one's favour or not.

The less regulation a market has the less stable it is. Over regulation can make a market too stable, and it stagnates.

Any market that sees Buyers unable to sell their goods WHERE the Customers are located is a market that is by definition BADLY regulated.

All The Best

Well, this is a pleasant surprise. Someone whose understanding of economics goes a little bit deeper than the simplistic nonsense so in-vogue right now. Kudos on you!

Seriously, this "the market correcting itself is a good thing" stuff is why there's so much mistrust of institutions in the Real World right now. How do you think people who lost their houses in 2008 feel knowing that that was just the market correcting itself and, really, a good thing?

Consequences of market correction must be mitigated in a well-run system, because while the Long Run matters, the Short and Middle Run matter too.

When the overhead of selling your items is so high you can't make a profit, that is a very real problem in the Real World. If it happens on a large scale, it can even lead to Stagflation like in the 1970s. No one wants that in the Real World. Certainly, no one should want it in a game. This is supposed to be fun. Stagflation is most certainly not fun.

ComboBreaker88 · January 2017

List of needed changes for guild management: (which would solve the topic of this thread)

- Longer MOTD x4
● In a 500 member guild that runs raffles, PvE and PvP events along with anything else that might happen to be going on the MOTD is way to short. The editor could use a little love too.

- Ability to buy/sell ranks (with timers and cool downs)
● This one is probably gonna get some hate. Let me just sat I love this idea. Being on console sort of sucks because ZOS let pc players come over with such huge amounts of end game items, pc transfers literally have billions on console. So they can pretty much gtab whatever trader they want. To compensate for that traders in some areas go for as much as 5 million a week. Yes 5 million a week.

- Kick specific guildies from chat (timed/ cooldowns)
● Imagine a Guildie has gone afk but forgot to mute their mic. Nothing kills a chat faster than that.

- See total gold/items donated in member notes.
● This is just useful.

-Ability to see items specific members have listed in guild store in member notes.
● For trade guilds this would be amazing. You can not only see how many items a guildie has listed but what they are.

- Black list players.
● Some players just need to go.

- Show dungeon roles of guildies.
● Looking for a tank? Found one.

-Show characters list of guildies.
● This one isn't exactly useful. But it is pretty neat.

-Show join date.
● Ever want to know who is new and who isn't when you join a guild?

-More ranks.
● Seriously we just need more.

- More tabbard customizations.
● With a game that has as much history as ESO you would think there would be more art available for this.

- Last online date.
● Why isn't this already a thing?

- About us x4 larger
● Same reasons as the MOTD.

- Change chat channel names.
● Probably the first thing most people say when I ask them what they would like to see changed.

- Guild timeline.
● It's always nice to see a good timeline.

- Guild events/calendar.
● The ability for players and officers to Schedule events and plan them out is the bread and butter of a good guild. Lets make that a bit easier yeah?

- Guild mail.
● I know, MOTD does this. But what if you need to send out a message to to a specific ranks of people?

- Raffel chests.
● So many guilds run raffles. Would it be nice if the game help support that.

- Member spotlights.
● Ever want to do a shout out to a guildie that is always super helpful?

- Guildies wearing same tabbard glow green.
● This would help loyal guildies identify one another from a distance. Obviously it would have to be on a toggle.

- Ability to set price range of specific items for listing in entire guild store.
● This one is going to get some real hate. Lol. But honestly if it's abused leave that guild. The more control a GM has over a guild the better they can manage it.

- Add average listed prices for items in that particular guild store when listing.
● I don't understand why this isn't a thing already.

- Ability to removed specific listed items of other members from guild store without kicking them.
● Ever see a guildie list something way below market price yet have other items of the same thinges listed at current price?

- Guild text chat rooms.
● Some player simply can't talk. I have a few in my guild, this would fix that issue.

- Ability to edit own member notes. /Can edit notes of specific ranks.
● The ability to edit notes is cool but is just to broad a sword to let most people use.

- Fix the guild roster so it doesn't scroll when a player gets on or offline while viewing it.
● Yeah that " fix" for spamming the message rate cause more issues than it solved.

- Make the guild history scroll like the guild roster to prevent getting kicked while checking it. Also make it and guild roster refresh only when you exit it's menu.
● Getting kicked for nothing sucks. But having to tap a button 50000 times sucks more.

- Ability to allow members (other than guild master) edit heraldry (tabbard)
● Have the GM as the only person to do this is just ridiculous. Why not let a whole rank be able to do it?

- Allow Guild Master to adjust the tax percent of sales.
● YES, I know this could be abused. Leave that guild if they do. But this could be done instead of having membership dues.

- Allow guildies to be in guild chat and group chat at the same time. (Allow any 2 chats channels at once.)
● Why isn't this a thing already?

- Seperate gold deposits and items deposits in guild bank history.
● Guild history is great. You know what else is great the ability to sort through it all.

- Suspend currently listed items if guild member loses Guild Trader access. Items are not viewable by the public until Trader access has been restored.
● Currently if a guildie looses selling privileges all their stuff stays up for sale. This allows people to get acess then not pay mbership fees again until they want to reliat. It's abusing the way the current system works.

- See group that guildies are in a group and request to join that group.
● Sometimes you try and group with someone and they are already in a group.. why doesn't the general send that nm person a notification to allow them to join that current group?

AzraelKrieg · January 2017

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

List of needed changes for guild management: (which would solve the topic of this thread)

*list of pointless dribble unrelated to the topic at hand*

None of that will solve the problem of OP complaining about is guild losing their vendor because they aren't making money.

IronCrystal · January 2017

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

List of needed changes SNIP

Please stop copy-pasting this list into any thread remotely related to guilds.

driosketch · January 2017

Part of the problem isn't the lack of traders, it's that guilds get into a bidding wars over a single trader and don't even realize it. In a cluster one guild may be paying 20 times the bid of one kiosk over. You're NA PC right? Check out the traders around Mournhold this week. I don't recognize many of the guilds there, but I can guarantee not every bid in the circle of seven was over a million.

:

AzraelKrieg · January 2017

driosketch wrote: »

Part of the problem isn't the lack of traders, it's that guilds get into a bidding wars over a single trader and don't even realize it. In a cluster one guild may be paying 20 times the bid of one kiosk over. You're NA PC right? Check out the traders around Mournhold this week. I don't recognize many of the guilds there, but I can guarantee not every bid in the circle of seven was over a million. :

I would definitely agree with this assessment. Especially after one of the guilds that was a staple there has just shut down because of a bidding war. It's settled down now because no one tries to fight the status quo there

Zbigb4life · January 2017

Free market anyone?

Huyen · January 2017

What everything is saying basicly, its working as intended: the market will rise to a point where it can no longer keep itself sustained to grow even more, and collapses.

They wanted a simulation of real-life economics? There ya go. This is how the world-wide economic crisis in 2008 started as well. Things became overpriced. People spending more then they could afford, and the select few (the guild-traders, not the guilds mind you) are getting rich over our backs because our price-wars going through the roof.

In the end the bubble will burst, prices will drop 80% and everything will be back to normal.

Panomania · January 2017

Til it all happens again, which is what occurs when you have an improper regulation or throttle on one aspect of trade out of balance with the others coupled with too high a taxation rate. The problem with 1T is that it is NOT a free market by any possible stretch of the imagination. In fact it far more closely resembles Cuba than a free market: out of control taxation and a closed, over-regulated economic trade system.

ForsakenSin · January 2017

maybe a bit of topic but my view on things

Reason for allot of problems with the guild traders are because more then 70% of all items ARE BOP ITEMS ....

this is what i said it would happen and it did and it will only become worse and here is why..

Before most of the items were BOE which means the pool of BOE items was much more larger and diluted thus the prices ranged and as prices range there was many people buying and selling economy was going great and weekly guild prices stayed the same...

NOW since more then 70% of items are BOP it funnels it into narrow line and as those items are the only items that can be sold there is no longer verity and stock has skyrocketed and priced for those items dropped dramatically as people are farming it and competing with prices due to those prices crashed people are not buying it or spending huge amount of money and thus hurting the guild which in return has to increase it weekly donations and those who can't pay the donations have left and thus the guild has not enought money to compete with other guilds in getting a trader in good location.

Now with houses playing a big part there will be less money to go around in the economy and thus prices of same overflown items will drop even more as people who buy houses with gold , that gold is gone its no longer in circulation of the game its wiped out delited.

just have a look at the recent sales in your trading guild , before items were selling up to 300k for some gold items , now if you have a look its small amounts 3 to 10k is usually the range of sales.

now with housing 3.7mill for house.. once when its bought that gold is gone deleted not longer circulating in economy , not to sound like consipracy guy but... it would not suprise me if this was not all planned out .. think about it..

whats the best and easy way to push people in spending real money in game ? you can't just make it obviouse otherwise people will leave which is understandable , what you do is make small planed changes that slowly push in that direction ..

1) make most of items BOP which crashes the economy oversupply of same items drive the prcies down thus less gold going around and increases guild weekly prices

2) remove the Gold/ money from circulating within the economy, they done that by housing which will delite the money from economy

3) makes it harder for people to make gold... but those people still want a house... what options do they have ? easy spend real money to be converted in the crowns and spend crowns to buy a house !

But then again i can be just overthinking things and thinking ZOS is after me for figuring out the conspiracy!!!!!!

Last night my Rapid Strikes lost around 3-4 k of DPS and they were much MUCH slower then usual speed
Usually in the last hit i see numbers around 7-8k and last night ive noticed im getting only around 4-5k ?? also the DPS with each strike was well over 1.3k and now its 600-900 or so and i have not changed anything on my character

Glurin · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what happens when it crashes? It cleans out the trash. The "something" that "needs to be done" is "nothing at all", because the bubble popping is just the market self correcting.

The wealth of research out there over the last decade going back as far as the Roman Empire and beyond shows that the concept of a "free market" has always been and will always be a myth.

...[snip]... (just don't want the quote to overwhelm the response)

Any market that sees Buyers unable to sell their goods WHERE the Customers are located is a market that is by definition BADLY regulated.

That is absolute and complete hogwash. The concept of a free market does not imply nor does it require complete anarchy. In simple terms, it is a system where prices are determined by competition between private individuals, companies, and consumers. In it's most basic form, it is the law of supply and demand made manifest. The only regulations required for smooth operation are those that prevent competition from being stifled.

FriedEggSandwich · January 2017

What effect do people think the huge incoming gold sinks (housing) will have on all this? There are a lot of people stockpiling a lot of gold right now. If a good chunk of those rich players make themselves poor by spending on housing how will that affect supply/demand for guild trader goods? Housing will ensure that a large portion of the currently stockpiled gold will just be deleted by the game. Surely this will have some effect on the in-game economy?

Glurin · January 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

You know what happens when it crashes? It cleans out the trash. The "something" that "needs to be done" is "nothing at all", because the bubble popping is just the market self correcting.

The wealth of research out there over the last decade going back as far as the Roman Empire and beyond shows that the concept of a "free market" has always been and will always be a myth.

Why?

Because commodity based markets require currencies, and currencies have never been "free" they have always been controlled by someone to serve someone's interests. And the moment that happens the concept of a "free market" is a dead horse, time to stop beating it. Because the market can be "gamed", "rigged" or undermined by controlling the flows, and levels of currency.

There is not now anywhere on this planet a "free market".
There has never been in the entirety of human history a "free market".
There will never be a "free market".

So the only question that has any meaning is "what type of regulation does the market need" and that has no basis in empirical fact, it is a matter of opinion, usually based on whether or not the current iteration of market regulation works in one's favour or not.

The less regulation a market has the less stable it is. Over regulation can make a market too stable, and it stagnates.

Any market that sees Buyers unable to sell their goods WHERE the Customers are located is a market that is by definition BADLY regulated.

All The Best

Well, this is a pleasant surprise. Someone whose understanding of economics goes a little bit deeper than the simplistic nonsense so in-vogue right now. Kudos on you!

Seriously, this "the market correcting itself is a good thing" stuff is why there's so much mistrust of institutions in the Real World right now. How do you think people who lost their houses in 2008 feel knowing that that was just the market correcting itself and, really, a good thing?

Consequences of market correction must be mitigated in a well-run system, because while the Long Run matters, the Short and Middle Run matter too.

When the overhead of selling your items is so high you can't make a profit, that is a very real problem in the Real World. If it happens on a large scale, it can even lead to Stagflation like in the 1970s. No one wants that in the Real World. Certainly, no one should want it in a game. This is supposed to be fun. Stagflation is most certainly not fun.

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

When your overhead is so high that you can't make a profit, the answer is to re-evaluate your position and try to either lower your overhead or increase your income. ie. become a better trader. Find where the need is in the market and fill it. Maybe advertise a bit. See if guild members are willing to donate to the guild to help cover the operating cost. The answer is not in having the devs dictate that you shall make a profit this week and wave their magic wand to make it so.

Glurin · January 2017

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

What effect do people think the huge incoming gold sinks (housing) will have on all this? There are a lot of people stockpiling a lot of gold right now. If a good chunk of those rich players make themselves poor by spending on housing how will that affect supply/demand for guild trader goods? Housing will ensure that a large portion of the currently stockpiled gold will just be deleted by the game. Surely this will have some effect on the in-game economy?

Oh without a doubt. There's going to be quite a bit of fluctuation not only because of the initial impact from the gold sink, but also because the price of things like plans, furniture, and new crafting components will be trying to stabilize during this time frame. Should result in a good bit of turbulence for a little while until it sorts itself out again.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

1) That is absolute and complete hogwash. The concept of a free market does not imply nor does it require complete anarchy.

2) In simple terms, it is a system where prices are determined by competition between private individuals, companies, and consumers.

3) In it's most basic form, it is the law of supply and demand made manifest.

4) The only regulations required for smooth operation are those that prevent competition from being stifled.

1) I never said anything about anarchy. This is the usual response from people who champion a so called "free market" but do not understand the basics.

2) No such market has existed since the invention of proxy/token currencies. Prices are determined as much buy the supply and liquidity of currencies as they are by individuals, companies and consumers.

3) There is no such "law", it just an empty phrase used by some people who have a passing familiarity with economics to defend their chosen position. Economics ISN'T a science, it has no laws. Economics is sub-function of politics - thus ALL of its actions, good and bad, are basically determined by choices made by those who control the political arena, and not by some imaginary, aloof, and immutable "market forces".

4) So you think there should not be rules to prevent, for example, food sellers selling off / poisonous food? That car manufacturers should be allowed to sell cars with faulty breaks?

All The Best

MasterSpatula · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

Well, you're right about that last part. No one here is interested in getting deep into Chicago School vs. Keynes. Except @Gandrhulf_Harbard, I'd guess.

Nontheless, this is a game, and unless you're playing an Economic Simulator specifically aimed at Objectivists, no one would find market corrections fun in a game. It is not the Developers' job to allow the (mythical) Invisible Hand of the Market to do its work. It's their job to provide an enjoyable experience.

YetiSpaghetti · January 2017

Honestly don't get why people swarm over Rawl'kha and Elden Root. I hardly ever shop there because I consistently find cheaper deals at other locations through TTC.

Glurin · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

1) That is absolute and complete hogwash. The concept of a free market does not imply nor does it require complete anarchy.

2) In simple terms, it is a system where prices are determined by competition between private individuals, companies, and consumers.

3) In it's most basic form, it is the law of supply and demand made manifest.

4) The only regulations required for smooth operation are those that prevent competition from being stifled.

1) I never said anything about anarchy. This is the usual response from people who champion a so called "free market" but do not understand the basics.

2) No such market has existed since the invention of proxy/token currencies. Prices are determined as much buy the supply and liquidity of currencies as they are by individuals, companies and consumers.

3) There is no such "law", it just an empty phrase used by some people who have a passing familiarity with economics to defend their chosen position. Economics ISN'T a science, it has no laws. Economics is sub-function of politics - thus ALL of its actions, good and bad, are basically determined by choices made by those who control the political arena, and not by some imaginary, aloof, and immutable "market forces".

4) So you think there should not be rules to prevent, for example, food sellers selling off / poisonous food? That car manufacturers should be allowed to sell cars with faulty breaks?

All The Best

1. Yes, you did. Oh you didn't use the word "anarchy", but you certainly implied as much.

2. Currency is merely the standard of measurement used in trading. In large part it doesn't really matter what it is or what it's called or how much of it exists. (Changes to the supply are another matter.) You're basically trying to argue that because there are fewer inches in a foot of string than there are centimeters, you're getting less string because the string is controlled by some shadowy secret society that dictates the number of inches in a foot. Therefore the string does not exist. It's nonsensical rubbish.

3. Such is the argument made by those megalomaniacs who like to control the political arena, and well, everything else. It simply isn't true. The economy isn't some machine that must be controlled an maintained by an "elite" or else it will just collapse into nothing. Economies are much more organic than that. It's us. It's you, it's me, it's that guy on the corner selling hotdogs, it's the CEO of that big mega-corporation. Everybody is part of it.

4. If they are selling poisonous food, then people will stop buying from them. Plus they'll have killed off their initial customer base anyway. Other laws handle the murder part. Same goes for the car manufacturer. Do you really need someone to tell you not to buy the car with the faulty breaks? Do you really need ZoS to tell you not to buy that Prosperous Hat of Queen's Elegance priced at 5,000,000 gold? Or that if you can't fork over enough cash to win the bid for the trader in Mournhold you should try bidding for a less expensive trader?

Dawnblade · January 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

Well, you're right about that last part. No one here is interested in getting deep into Chicago School vs. Keynes. Except @Gandrhulf_Harbard, I'd guess.

Nontheless, this is a game, and unless you're playing an Economic Simulator specifically aimed at Objectivists, no one would find market corrections fun in a game. It is not the Developers' job to allow the (mythical) Invisible Hand of the Market to do its work. It's their job to provide an enjoyable experience.

And for me an enjoyable experience would be a single marketplace with a functional search feature open for all to use in buying and selling, with simple use fees such as listing fees and commissions on sales.

Right now, buying and selling in this game is anything but enjoyable - it is just a huge annoyance.

Glurin · January 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

Well, you're right about that last part. No one here is interested in getting deep into Chicago School vs. Keynes. Except @Gandrhulf_Harbard, I'd guess.

Nontheless, this is a game, and unless you're playing an Economic Simulator specifically aimed at Objectivists, no one would find market corrections fun in a game. It is not the Developers' job to allow the (mythical) Invisible Hand of the Market to do its work. It's their job to provide an enjoyable experience.

And for me an enjoyable experience would be a single marketplace with a functional search feature open for all to use in buying and selling, with simple use fees such as listing fees and commissions on sales.

Right now, buying and selling in this game is anything but enjoyable - it is just a huge annoyance.

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

Then again, maybe the thing you enjoy is the knowledge that you got the absolute rock bottom world wide price you could ever possibly hope to get on that hat you bought for doing little more than typing "hat" in a single search field. In which case, I can't help you. You can still get that rock bottom price, but you're going to have to do a little more than type "hat".

YetiSpaghetti · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

This. I'd much rather inflation kept to a minimum than some easy access all in one Auction House.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

1) I never said anything about anarchy.

1. Yes, you did. Oh you didn't use the word "anarchy",

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

YetiSpaghetti wrote: »

This. I'd much rather inflation kept to a minimum than some easy access all in one Auction House.

But inflation isn't being kept at a minimum, because ever increasing Kiosk prices are feeding into ever increasing commodity prices.

Jeez, does anyone here understand the basics of how economics work?

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

Then again, maybe the thing you enjoy is the knowledge that you got the absolute rock bottom world wide price you could ever possibly hope to get on that hat you bought for doing little more than typing "hat" in a single search field. In which case, I can't help you. You can still get that rock bottom price, but you're going to have to do a little more than type "hat".

I have never once seen rampant inflation in an AH based economic system, except when "new gear" hits the market and prices spike for that new gear - and that happens here as well.

I saw a message in chat today from a Trade Guild boasting that it had (by means of "overflow" guilds) 4 separate kiosks - now if all of those were in close proximity to one another that guild would by default "corner the market" not just on something, but on everything.

All The Best

Glurin · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

YetiSpaghetti wrote: »

This. I'd much rather inflation kept to a minimum than some easy access all in one Auction House.

But inflation isn't being kept at a minimum, because ever increasing Kiosk prices are feeding into ever increasing commodity prices.

Jeez, does anyone here understand the basics of how economics work?

All The Best

Yet those kiosk prices are kept in check by the other kiosks, most of which aren't nearly as expensive as the high traffic ones.

Are you sure you understand the basics of how economics work?

Glurin · January 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

Then again, maybe the thing you enjoy is the knowledge that you got the absolute rock bottom world wide price you could ever possibly hope to get on that hat you bought for doing little more than typing "hat" in a single search field. In which case, I can't help you. You can still get that rock bottom price, but you're going to have to do a little more than type "hat".

I have never once seen rampant inflation in an AH based economic system, except when "new gear" hits the market and prices spike for that new gear - and that happens here as well.

I saw a message in chat today from a Trade Guild boasting that it had (by means of "overflow" guilds) 4 separate kiosks - now if all of those were in close proximity to one another that guild would by default "corner the market" not just on something, but on everything.

All The Best

So they manage to get four separate kiosks in say, Elden Root. Good for them. That still leaves four more in Elden Root, plus two more in Grahtwood, plus well over a hundred more all over Tamriel. Hardly what I'd call cornering the market on "everything".

You must be blind if you haven't seen the inflation that hits AH systems. It doesn't take long before basic tier 1 crafting materials, for example, are selling for more than it costs to buy a friken horse in some of these MMOs.

Dawnblade · January 2017

Glurin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

Well, you're right about that last part. No one here is interested in getting deep into Chicago School vs. Keynes. Except @Gandrhulf_Harbard, I'd guess.

Nontheless, this is a game, and unless you're playing an Economic Simulator specifically aimed at Objectivists, no one would find market corrections fun in a game. It is not the Developers' job to allow the (mythical) Invisible Hand of the Market to do its work. It's their job to provide an enjoyable experience.

And for me an enjoyable experience would be a single marketplace with a functional search feature open for all to use in buying and selling, with simple use fees such as listing fees and commissions on sales.

Right now, buying and selling in this game is anything but enjoyable - it is just a huge annoyance.

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

Then again, maybe the thing you enjoy is the knowledge that you got the absolute rock bottom world wide price you could ever possibly hope to get on that hat you bought for doing little more than typing "hat" in a single search field. In which case, I can't help you. You can still get that rock bottom price, but you're going to have to do a little more than type "hat".

Wrong - inflation and pricing instability is not caused by an open marketplace (e.g. a market open to all with more buyers and sellers participating than closed / limited markets like traders), if anything an open marketplace trends to reduce variation in pricing.

What does cause inflation in most games, including in ESO, is players amassing more and more game currency over time as currency sinks fail to keep up with currency inflows, and thus the prices on everything go up as more currency chases the same limited pool of goods.

And when / as that happens, it is up to the developers to manage by tweaking the inflows and outflows (as with the launch of housing which should suck a lot of currency out of the game).

But I get why some might wish to maintain the status quo - it has been good to them and they have reaped the rewards.

So own it - 'I like the trader system, it works for me and an open marketplace scares me' - I don't mind people having different opinions.

Just don't trot out non-sense like stating an open marketplace would by itself cause massive inflation to justify maintaining an archaic, clunky, restricted system.

Glurin · January 2017

Dawnblade wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Every time you try to mitigate the correction like that, you not only make the next one worse, you also drag out the consequences of the current one. So instead of just falling on your face and getting right back up again, it's a lot like being tied to a still very much alive horse and dragged five miles down the road. But we're getting side tracked here.

Well, you're right about that last part. No one here is interested in getting deep into Chicago School vs. Keynes. Except @Gandrhulf_Harbard, I'd guess.

Nontheless, this is a game, and unless you're playing an Economic Simulator specifically aimed at Objectivists, no one would find market corrections fun in a game. It is not the Developers' job to allow the (mythical) Invisible Hand of the Market to do its work. It's their job to provide an enjoyable experience.

And for me an enjoyable experience would be a single marketplace with a functional search feature open for all to use in buying and selling, with simple use fees such as listing fees and commissions on sales.

Right now, buying and selling in this game is anything but enjoyable - it is just a huge annoyance.

AH systems like those found in other MMOs come with a litany of their own problems, not the least of which is rampant inflation. Usually I find that the "enjoyable experience" that people are talking about when they advocate for a single, global AH is cornering the market on something. ESO's guild trader system prevents that from happening by design. This keeps prices much more stable and helps to keep inflation somewhat in check.

Then again, maybe the thing you enjoy is the knowledge that you got the absolute rock bottom world wide price you could ever possibly hope to get on that hat you bought for doing little more than typing "hat" in a single search field. In which case, I can't help you. You can still get that rock bottom price, but you're going to have to do a little more than type "hat".

Wrong - inflation and pricing instability is not caused by an open marketplace (e.g. a market open to all with more buyers and sellers participating than closed / limited markets like traders), if anything an open marketplace trends to reduce variation in pricing.

What does cause inflation in most games, including in ESO, is players accumulating larger and larger balances of game currency over time as currency sinks fail to keep up with currency inflows, and thus the prices on everything go up as more currency chases the same limited pool of goods.

And when / as that happens, it is up to the developers to manage by tweaking the inflows and outflows (as with the launch of housing which should suck a lot of currency out of the game).

But I get why some might wish to maintain the status quo - it has been good to them and they have reaped the rewards.

So own it - 'I like the trader system, it works for me and an open marketplace scares me' - I don't mind people having different opinions.

Just don't trot out non-sense like stating an open marketplace would by itself cause massive inflation to justify maintaining an archaic, clunky, restricted system.

Firstly, AHs are not open markets. They are centralized markets. Everything in one place, like having just one gigantic Wal-mart super center that everyone goes to because there is nobody else. It is MUCH easier to game the system under such conditions because it's very easy to buy out your competition.

Secondly, guild traders are an open market system. I think your problem here is that you're looking at each individual trader as it's own isolated market when in fact the term "market" has a much broader context. Each trader is merely a small part of a much larger whole which is, in fact, open to everyone.

Thirdly, currency supply is not the cause of inflation. It is a cause of inflation which, as you said, is controlled via the gold sinks placed in the world to remove it. Repairs, vendor items, housing, guild trader bidding, etc.

Fourthly, I am NOT one of the "super rich" who will probably buy out all three manors for the Count title on day one just to have the title. Don't even try to paint me as such.