Nerf trainee yet proc sets are working as intended?

The_Duke · January 2017

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

OutLaw_Nynx · January 2017

It's not called trainee for nothing..

STEVIL · January 2017

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

If trainee is supposed to be an end game set it needs the same restrictions as the others.

Right now it is the only set dropping in five starter xones, not one of three in a single zone. That makes it quick farming less a grind.
Right now its weapons and jewels and legs iirc arent locked into bop dungeons.

But once those things are restored and its as hard and long a grind to acquire as the other sets are, then it can logically be raised back to endgame levels.

The_Duke · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

If trainee is supposed to be an end game set it needs the same restrictions as the others.

Right now it is the only set dropping in five starter xones, not one of three in a single zone. That makes it quick farming less a grind.
Right now its weapons and jewels and legs iirc arent locked into bop dungeons.

But once those things are restored and its as hard and long a grind to acquire as the other sets are, then it can logically be raised back to endgame levels.

Have you chest grinded for purple rings in the right resource? I spent days and days amd settled on blue. The grind is real. Its easier to get the appropriate rings from end bosses and dolmens than it is to get trainee in purple and robust or arcane.

theslynx · January 2017

I don't particularly care about PvP, but the Trainee set was a nice addition to more casual/niche build PvE tanking. It wasn't best-in-slot for anything, and came with the disadvantage of the Training trait on most slots, but could still make some fun builds viable outside of hardcore endgame content.

Losing that, as well as losing a Templar stun and having Heavy Armor nerfed, worsens PvE tanking across the board and renders a lot of decent builds untenable. For a while, it seemed like ZOS wanted tanking to be more diverse and active; these changes render it even more homogeneous and passive.

Katahdin · January 2017

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

Amen

Rev Rielle · January 2017

They were comparing the set to other base stat sets (e.g. Draugr Hulk), and when compared to that - as they've said - the Trainee set was not balanaced. Why proc sets always come in to everyone's arguments (rightly or wrongly)...

Ihatenightblades · January 2017

Wait whats getting nerfed on trainee set?

Can someone please explain

psychotic13 · January 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

Wait whats getting nerfed on trainee set?

Can someone please explain

The 5th piece bonus of 2500 to all stats has been nerfed to 1250.

I was using the set, had purple jewellery and golded out my weapons, bit annoying but it was overpowered. When using it I didn't have to worry about health being relative to my food and having to worry about stamina issues for CC breaking

AzraelKrieg · January 2017

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

Wait whats getting nerfed on trainee set?

Can someone please explain

The latest PTS update has reduced the maximum buff that the Trainee sets 5pc gives to all resources as it was providing larger buffs than other sets such as Hulking Draugr were providing. Example, on Live right now if you have gold Trainee gear you'll get 1064 to Health, 967 to Mag and Stam and then 2484 to all three resource pools. So they've adjusted the 5pc buff down so that it is used as intended and that is as entry level gear and not end game gear.

hassubhai · January 2017

Tbf the amount lf stats trainee gave was just way too much i think the nerf was justified

STEVIL · January 2017

The_Duke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

If trainee is supposed to be an end game set it needs the same restrictions as the others.

Right now it is the only set dropping in five starter xones, not one of three in a single zone. That makes it quick farming less a grind.
Right now its weapons and jewels and legs iirc arent locked into bop dungeons.

But once those things are restored and its as hard and long a grind to acquire as the other sets are, then it can logically be raised back to endgame levels.

Have you chest grinded for purple rings in the right resource? I spent days and days amd settled on blue. The grind is real. Its easier to get the appropriate rings from end bosses and dolmens than it is to get trainee in purple and robust or arcane.

So you get the rings from dolmens for your others set and let Trainee be your body set with maybe one jewelry if you get lucky.

But, frankly, with trainee being a buff all stats set, the idea that whether the jewel is arcane or healthy or robust doesnt seem to be as vital as it does for more straightforward "one stat focused" builds would.

AzraelKrieg · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

If trainee is supposed to be an end game set it needs the same restrictions as the others.

Right now it is the only set dropping in five starter xones, not one of three in a single zone. That makes it quick farming less a grind.
Right now its weapons and jewels and legs iirc arent locked into bop dungeons.

But once those things are restored and its as hard and long a grind to acquire as the other sets are, then it can logically be raised back to endgame levels.

Have you chest grinded for purple rings in the right resource? I spent days and days amd settled on blue. The grind is real. Its easier to get the appropriate rings from end bosses and dolmens than it is to get trainee in purple and robust or arcane.

So you get the rings from dolmens for your others set and let Trainee be your body set with maybe one jewelry if you get lucky.

But, frankly, with trainee being a buff all stats set, the idea that whether the jewel is arcane or healthy or robust doesnt seem to be as vital as it does for more straightforward "one stat focused" builds would.

Issue with going Trainee on body is that all pieces excluding those that are quest rewards have Training traits

stevepdodson_ESO888 · January 2017

psychotic13 wrote: »

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

Wait whats getting nerfed on trainee set?

Can someone please explain

The 5th piece bonus of 2500 to all stats has been nerfed to 1250.

I was using the set, had purple jewellery and golded out my weapons, bit annoying but it was overpowered. When using it I didn't have to worry about health being relative to my food and having to worry about stamina issues for CC breaking

yeah...this really sums it up
it kind of was OP in that, as you said, it meant you didn't have to worry too much about "balancing" (sorry for the b-word) to your own stats as this covered all bases

kvlou79 · January 2017

"Tank-in-Training"..."PVQ" (Player vs Questing). DOESN'T NEED BALANCED! Crappy traits, keeps all starter zones "grind relevant" along with treasure maps for those zones. DONT NERF TRAINEE!!!!!

oibam · January 2017

50% nerf is too much. 25% nerf would be right.

raj72616a · January 2017

wow trainee set is not OP, and that's reflected by its low price in guild stores.

ZoS really do not want hybrid build to be viable?

STEVIL · January 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

The_Duke wrote: »

Let me preface this by stating my comments are mostly PVP related.

Can some one explain to me how proc set stacking is ok, but a set that was based on raw stats and made hybrids somewhat viable was deemed too OP........

I thought the whole Idea behind battle spirit was to reduce the TTK? yet proc sets run rampant. 2 sets proc at once and its goodnight Charlie. Thats fine by Zos.

Resource sets however continue to get the nerf hammer. Black rose gets a 5% reduction, heavy armour resource return on heavy attack is reduced by 25% , trainee gets cut significantly.

If you want to make worthwhile change that will have a long standing improvement to quality of life for PVP....try reading these very forums......Multiple threads on Eye of noob, proc set stacking and heavy armor needing the wrath passive removed.

I have yet to read a nerf Trainee thread.

Dont quit your day job Zos.....whatever that is....

If trainee is supposed to be an end game set it needs the same restrictions as the others.

Right now it is the only set dropping in five starter xones, not one of three in a single zone. That makes it quick farming less a grind.
Right now its weapons and jewels and legs iirc arent locked into bop dungeons.

But once those things are restored and its as hard and long a grind to acquire as the other sets are, then it can logically be raised back to endgame levels.

Have you chest grinded for purple rings in the right resource? I spent days and days amd settled on blue. The grind is real. Its easier to get the appropriate rings from end bosses and dolmens than it is to get trainee in purple and robust or arcane.

So you get the rings from dolmens for your others set and let Trainee be your body set with maybe one jewelry if you get lucky.

But, frankly, with trainee being a buff all stats set, the idea that whether the jewel is arcane or healthy or robust doesnt seem to be as vital as it does for more straightforward "one stat focused" builds would.

Issue with going Trainee on body is that all pieces excluding those that are quest rewards have Training traits

of course, thats what trainee was intended to do, be a trainee set not an endgame set.

Some, however, worked up apparently endgame style builds they wanted due to its overly high stat bonuses and that was made easier with its drop rates. hence the nerf.

it remains a convenient, easy to get, all around stay alive set for starting characters but by the time they start looking at endgame gear, when those "training" traits Cp gain dont quite add up, then the base stats no longer being superior will drive the set back to the decon table - as was intended.

My point is: if you want "all stats" sets for endgame they exist in the base drop sets following the nornal drop sets deployment rules, not the special starter zone one-set-for-everybody.

I did not see a purpose for builds using trainee beyond starting out when they dropped so easily, cut down on how much crafting during earlier levels, but by maybe the 24 gearing and definitely 34 gearing, quick crafted was just too convenjent.

But if they take a "trainee"-like set with rebalanced numbers so it doesn't make hulking whatsit sub-par and add it into the next zone as std drop, great.

Biro123 · January 2017

I have a DW magsorc build that uses trainee... Been a bit of a roller-coaster ride for her with the U13 patch-notes...

Saying that, I do think Trainee was a little too strong simply for the sheer amount of stats it provides.. Lets face it, what PVP magicka build wouldn't want something giving the magicka that it did - along with the extra health for gank-protection and stam for break-free's etc. But I do think the nerf was a bit *too* much. Need to try it out - but currently its probably enough to make me drop this set and go back to the drawing board.

Now, if Zos don't want it used at endgame - they will probably leave it as is. If they do, then they need to make it easier to fit into builds, which means :-
1. Allowing it to drop in all traits
2. Removing the 'feature' which mean losing the stats from the 5th piece bonus when you weapon swap.

It would be nice though, if they came up with more 'hybrid' style sets..

raj72616a · January 2017

heck if this need to be nerfed just because it is too easy to get, then nerf this, but add a new viable hybrid end game set. put it in dlc vet dungeon, put it in trial, i don't care, i will go farm it!

but no, they just nerf it. and hybrid build isnt going to get any new alternative.

theslynx · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

of course, thats what trainee was intended to do, be a trainee set not an endgame set.

Some, however, worked up apparently endgame style builds they wanted due to its overly high stat bonuses and that was made easier with its drop rates. hence the nerf.

... if they take a "trainee"-like set with rebalanced numbers so it doesn't make hulking whatsit sub-par and add it into the next zone as std drop, great.

I'm not sure why you keep saying this; the devs have claimed it, but it's easily checked.

Draugr Hulk provides 5 400 Stamina. Training currently provides 3 450. With the nerf, it'll provide 2 200 Stamina. That's on top of the undesirable Training trait.

I imagine the response to this would be, well, Trainee provides three stats, so why choose Draugr? Fair enough, but then you're effectively arguing that we ought to balance desirable sets down towards those which are not. I'm not sure you'll find broad agreement there.

As to the 'end game gear should be tough to get' argument, I simply don't think it stands up to scrutiny. There are plenty of four- and five-trait crafted sets that are considered good enough for end-game content, but they're even easier to get than Trainee. For that matter, if you join a guild, you can pretty easily find crafters to make you nine-trait sets for the materials and a tip. Arguing about the number of zones in which it's available simply doesn't make sense to me; by that logic, I could easily be worried about the amount of geography covered, rather than the number of zones, and I'd be upset about sets tied to small zones like Hew's Bane compared to, say, Wrothgar.

Ultimately, I find the whole 'it's an introductory set' argument completely unconvincing. The rationale seems to be that the devs want us to strategise and specialise. People are doing that with this set: finding a way to fulfill roles by slightly different means.

If the argument had been 'it's too strong,' fine - although even then, I think a 50% nerf is really hard to defend. Combine this with other changes (Heavy Armor changes to stamina recovery, for instance) and it can completely wreck characters people spent a long time building up.