Request #6868797 for there to be SOME signal of difficulty on dungeons

amasuriel · January 2017

So I did WGT normal today using group finder; this isn't a story about elitists or noobs though

I got 3 legit under 50s, but no problem, it's normal not vet. People are responsive in chat so all good. It's one dudes first dungeon in ESO ever! Okay, still all good.

We wiped a bit at the inhibitor, and I started getting a little annoyed because nobody rezzing, I ask why and no answer. I finally stop and say I'm not going on until I get an answer about rezzing and I find out one of our DPS didn't know you could rez other players (the other didn't have gems)!!!! We eventually got it, finished the dungeon, took about an hour.

I mean overall, you could take the point of the story that nothing needs to change, because we did in fact complete the dungeon; but it was reliant on having at least one high CP player, who knew all the mechanics inside out and was happy to explain, and new people who all understood english perfectly and were good gamers, just new to ESO.

IMO nobody should be learning you can rez other players for the first time in WGT. For every group like ours that was able to complete, there would be 9 more with just frustration. If people understood that dungeons like fungal 1 were easier than 2 is easier than WGT etc, most people would do them in order of difficulty. This game has a big issue with learning curve, and I feel like most of it is self inflicted. If you made it clear to people what a more natural progression was, most people would do it.

That isn't so say you need to force people to a certain order or anything, but imagine you are brand new, level 15 or whatever, wouldn't you like to know that if you want to try dungeons here are the easiest ones, here are the middle ones and here are hard ones?

Lots of suggestions on how to make it work elsewhere, but seriously, until we do we will get 3 complaint threads a day about low CP noobs or high CP elitists, and its not a good thing for anyone.

Soafee · January 2017

Well. Now they know and they are better players having met you. We were all new once and I'm sure there was a brief moment in time that you didn't know something until someone told you about it. You have the option of leaving the dungeon. It happens all the time, but you stayed. They are probably grateful.

RavenSworn · January 2017

Actually the information is all there, if a player is willing to look. And it's ingame! There is even a help tab for players which I think is really informative PROVIDED the player reads.

When you die the first time, there is even a quote that says you can also res other players with the soul gems. (or it might be when you first use the soul trap skill but I digress.)

However, it is really much better for players to know certain difficulty level for different dungeons. Like how WGT is infinitely harder than BC for instance, even on normal. Or how any 2nd version of the dungeon is slightly harder than the 1st one.

amasuriel · January 2017

Soafee wrote: »

Well. Now they know and they are better players having met you. We were all new once and I'm sure there was a brief moment in time that you didn't know something until someone told you about it. You have the option of leaving the dungeon. It happens all the time, but you stayed. They are probably grateful.

Its not about the specific thing unknown, and I'm one of those people that expects if I'm doing a normal I may have to mentor (vet I have a substantially dimmer view of the unprepared, but that is a separate topic), but about people jumping into the deepest part of the pool not intentionally, but because the game gives you 0 information.

At the end of the day, I find it hard to imagine anyone would argue that giving players more information about dungeons is bad, and for many people would help them a lot.

EDIT**I'm not critical of the person who didn't know how to rez, not the point of my post at all

Cavarka · January 2017

Ffxiv addresses dungeon training pretty well. Role training as well. Uses short scenarios you must complete. Works really well.

Cpt_Teemo · January 2017

Also to make all available vet dungeons at Cp 10 is kind of over the top imo, sure there are some you can easily do at Cp 10 but the majority of them are in the 300 range of stat range aren't they?

idk · January 2017

@amasuriel

There is information in game about would gem use. Nothing can prevent someone from GF if they do not know how to rez.

GF is like a box of chocolates. Ones does know what they will get until they bite into it. Sometimes it'll be the sweet cherry center you hate and other times the creamy salted caramel center you crave.

I have been through nWGT with sub lvl 30 dps and a lvl 22 tank. No big deal. Whiped a couple times but *** through ok. Yea, sometimes have to tell people (in other groups) they need to rez when someone dies.

It's life. No big deal

smacx250 · January 2017

Is there any community maintained list of dungeon's difficulty? I ask as I'd be interested in looking at it.

Artemiisia · January 2017

They could actually put learning to ress in the tutorial: the walling prison

they have already put new stuff in it since early release, like how to use lockpicks

it would be a perfect place to learn to ress someone and could easily be put into the story

amasuriel · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@amasuriel

There is information in game about would gem use. Nothing can prevent someone from GF if they do not know how to rez.

GF is like a box of chocolates. Ones does know what they will get until they bite into it. Sometimes it'll be the sweet cherry center you hate and other times the creamy salted caramel center you crave.

I have been through nWGT with sub lvl 30 dps and a lvl 22 tank. No big deal. Whiped a couple times but *** through ok. Yea, sometimes have to tell people (in other groups) they need to rez when someone dies.

It's life. No big deal

I should have not put in the specific example about rezzing, people are getting too hung up on it.

My point is for most people, doing nWGT as their first dungeon ever, when they are still mastering the basics of the game, isn't ideal for anyone, and most people are only doing it because they have no idea there is a difference. They get their quest from the quest giver and assume it's all roughly the same. It's not, and they have no idea.

Dawnblade · January 2017

It seems rather silly that random dungeons accessed through the group finder have wildly different difficulties, especially given the wildly different power levels players from new low levels to max level max CPs one finds in the random queue.

IMO all content of the same tier (e.g. normal mode, vet mode, maybe a new DLC mode) should be the same relative difficulty, especially content that all provides the same rewards.

I'd even go as far as to say that for the daily pledge quest / random dungeon (to get the rewards), the dungeons should be tuned to CP 160 with all players capped or boosted to CP 160.

This nonsense of people who over-gear and over CP dungeons bitching about low levels or low CP players in their groups is getting old, as is watching these same types (not the OP) kick low levels / low CP players.

If they want to offer and players wish to run harder tuned dungeons or hard mode variations, those should be in a separate queue / available to manual groups.

idk · January 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@amasuriel

There is information in game about would gem use. Nothing can prevent someone from GF if they do not know how to rez.

GF is like a box of chocolates. Ones does know what they will get until they bite into it. Sometimes it'll be the sweet cherry center you hate and other times the creamy salted caramel center you crave.

I have been through nWGT with sub lvl 30 dps and a lvl 22 tank. No big deal. Whiped a couple times but *** through ok. Yea, sometimes have to tell people (in other groups) they need to rez when someone dies.

It's life. No big deal

I should have not put in the specific example about rezzing, people are getting too hung up on it.

My point is for most people, doing nWGT as their first dungeon ever, when they are still mastering the basics of the game, isn't ideal for anyone, and most people are only doing it because they have no idea there is a difference. They get their quest from the quest giver and assume it's all roughly the same. It's not, and they have no idea.

I agree that the DLC dungeons start becoming available to early. Even though I've done it just fine with sub lvl30 players including a lvl 22 tank, if should not come up until lvl30. More skills and players getting used to the game and their role helps. Though this will not create a perfect world.

akl77 · January 2017

Or make it that you have to complete easiest dungeons first then unlock second tier, then unlock third tier, then unlock hardest dungeons. Then unlock vet, etc.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2017

I have said on more than one occasions that all dungeons should be rated on the standard 5 star system.

Normal dungeons will typically be 1-2 stars, most older vet dungeons will be 3-4 stars, and some of the Vet DLC will be 5 star. Just an example, I am sure they have better data on clear rates than we do. The hardest normal dungeon might be a 3 and the easiest vet might be a 2, that sort of thing.

Then, it would be really simple. If you want to use group finder:

-Once you clear all the content that is 1 star, you can move on 2 star. You would then know that in a normal WGT group, that they had likely cleared most of the other normal dungeons and had a basic understanding of how things worked.

If people want to go out of order on their own, fine. But group finder should have basic requirements for different dungeon tiers. There is absolutely no downside that I can think of. Pretty much any video game I can think ramps up the difficulty as you go. This would be no different. If you cant clear Vet Wayrest, you have no business in Vet WGT for example.