Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Remove Wrath, give us back Bracing.

It had a adverse effect on PVP, no one wants it in PVE.

This, people state that Wrath is OP and it isn't, if bracing is restored it wouldn't make a difference.

Well it would mean you actually lose noticeable damage if you go heavy rather than medium because with wraith you don't.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Remove Wrath, give us back Bracing.

It had a adverse effect on PVP, no one wants it in PVE.

[Delete]

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

A majority of players don't understand the finer points of pvp and how it differs from pve. Exhibit A: Dps trying their hand in dungeon groups with their shiny new plate armor. And let's face it, some folks are just tired of chasing the ever changing meta, and stick with what they have, or what works for them in pve.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

So are you actually trying to make a point or just constantly going to reference that graph as if it can't be interpreted in a dozen different ways?

It's not like you can't set foot in Cyrodiil for 30 minutes and see for yourself how its a tank zergfest at the moment.

Black Rose is controversial for resource regeneration
+
Proc sets are controversial for providing burst damage regardless of build
=
Nerf heavy armor, of course

I've never been so glad that forum strategists weren't in charge of balance in a game.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

"Do more people use X, or do more people use Y?" is no basis for a balance argument on X or Y. Overperforming setups are usually more popular than underperforming ones, but that's not always true, and it doesn't mean that the balance issue doesn't exist.

From the data that the devs collected, it's impossible to discern how skilled the players were, whether they were actively PvPing, whether they were just passing though for Skyshards and lore books, or whether they were fresh out of PvE and haven't figured out that they need a different build to play PvP.

I know from my experience trying to PvP with a Magicka Dragonknight that I simply cannot justify using light armor in PvP. I mean, sure, I'm a little more comfortable with my Magicka pool in light armor, and I deal more damage. But my defenses are paper thin, and I have no stamina sustain to speak of. When I switch to heavy, sure, I miss the Magicka sustain and the spell penetration a bit, but the difference is small enough to overlook. Compared to the massive defensive factor I gain, between the extra armor, the health bonus, the healing bonus, and the fact that I now have a snowball's chance in Hell of sustaining my stamina, I just can't see why I would ever switch back to light armor.

I'm not here to say that heavy armor explicitly needs a nerf, although I do think it's way too necessary to use heavy in the current meta. My point here is that I'm having a much easier time believing the people explaining why heavy armor is too strong than I am believing that it isn't too strong because of popularity. Because popularity doesn't mean jack to me when I read the posts of the "nerf heavy" crowd and realize that I have seen every single one of their points firsthand.

Vc c v dc xvideos vc cvc c c c

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Heavy is most definitely more popular than medium at least on xbox. Purely anecdotal sure but I play in haderus, scourge and skull and the vast majority of specific classes that I encounter are in heavy. Stam sorc, dk, templar and mag templar and dk. Most nightblades I fight if stam run medium and procs for ganking and mag nightblades are in light trying to bomb zergs. My point is for certain classes it would seem illogical to run medium due the superiority of heavy combined with class. It would be nice to run a medium stam dk without procs and be just as viable as a stam dk in heavy but currently thats just not the case.

SnubbS wrote: »

Pretty confident that the only reason people say that they see more Heavy than Light/Medium is because on average the effective players you encounter -- the ones most likely to either kill you, or be an annoying tank, or an unkillable healbot -- they're all wearing Heavy. You don't notice the kid with 300cp walking around with 20k health -- yet those players are everywhere.

Excellent point.

Heavy armour meta? Please.. stop it.

People commenting on how great the passives and Black Rose are, should re-evaluate what they said because they are not at all superior than med/light armour.
Heavy armour is already balanced the way it is. Med and light armour, however, needs more rebalancing.

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

"Do more people use X, or do more people use Y?" is no basis for a balance argument on X or Y. Overperforming setups are usually more popular than underperforming ones, but that's not always true, and it doesn't mean that the balance issue doesn't exist.

From the data that the devs collected, it's impossible to discern how skilled the players were, whether they were actively PvPing, whether they were just passing though for Skyshards and lore books, or whether they were fresh out of PvE and haven't figured out that they need a different build to play PvP.

I know from my experience trying to PvP with a Magicka Dragonknight that I simply cannot justify using light armor in PvP. I mean, sure, I'm a little more comfortable with my Magicka pool in light armor, and I deal more damage. But my defenses are paper thin, and I have no stamina sustain to speak of. When I switch to heavy, sure, I miss the Magicka sustain and the spell penetration a bit, but the difference is small enough to overlook. Compared to the massive defensive factor I gain, between the extra armor, the health bonus, the healing bonus, and the fact that I now have a snowball's chance in Hell of sustaining my stamina, I just can't see why I would ever switch back to light armor.

I'm not here to say that heavy armor explicitly needs a nerf, although I do think it's way too necessary to use heavy in the current meta. My point here is that I'm having a much easier time believing the people explaining why heavy armor is too strong than I am believing that it isn't too strong because of popularity. Because popularity doesn't mean jack to me when I read the posts of the "nerf heavy" crowd and realize that I have seen every single one of their points firsthand.

There you go refuting data with none of your own except anecdotal shenanigans.

If you can't wear LA on your DK you need to revist your build, you are not forced to wear heavy, just because some streamer uploads a build doesn't mean you have to copy it.

Zos gave you shields for your light armor, shield stack like other magic builds and you'll be fine.

The graph is here to debunk the troll claim that heavy is the meta and it's clearly not, DEV data states other wises, so Get some data that contrasts what the devs put out and prove me wrong or stop QQing.

Emencie wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

So are you actually trying to make a point or just constantly going to reference that graph as if it can't be interpreted in a dozen different ways?

It's not like you can't set foot in Cyrodiil for 30 minutes and see for yourself how its a tank zergfest at the moment.

I'm sorry but the graph was explained, and cannot be interpreted in any different way. It was posted in relation to this very same topic, and the dev flat out said your side of this debate was incorrect. He also broke down the graph, saying that the last one was amongst high end PvPers.

Your claim that the graph is wrong requires ZOS to either be... 1, lying to you for some reason. Or 2, so inept at their job they cannot understand simple metrics.

The fact that he even posted it, which was prefaced with he normally wouldn't, also shows us that ZOS felt that this debate was nonsense. Since the hard nubers outright prove that there are not hordes of heavy armor wearing players out there.

At this point if you are arguing that heavy armor is the most used I'm sorry but you are wrong. And the devs are not going to try to clarify again. Because many people in the forum community simply will not accept it as fact. Simply because of their anectldotal evidence that "But I see more heavy armor."

Amusingly, Rich Lambert directly addressed that last paragraph even. Saying something to the effect that, "players have a habit of thinking what they see is reflective of everything going on."

thankyourat wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

If more people are wearing light and medium over heavy that wouldn't surprise me. A good chunk of players are bad at PvP. I bet most players are also not running impen for traits as well. A simple understanding of game mechanics would show you that heavy is superior in PvP.

Agreed. It's not worth arguing. Anyone claiming that heavy is not the meta and trying to imply that HA is not superior to its counterparts all around, does not pvp right now. If they do and they haven't figured this out, they're new to Cyro or not paying attention.

The problem isn't really about HA being the best option in Cryodiil, it's that this is in the general forums and heavy is not the way to go for PvE.

Wait...is that what this back and forth is about? Where the post landed? Good gods I thought people were implying HA is not superior to all in pvp. Of course it's not the best option for all circumstances in pve. I will back away now, it seems I misread some things.

I'm implying that heavy is not supperior in PVP, using Zos Data.

Some of you believe it is because is you think it deals the most dmg, yet that claim doen't translate into pve.

It is superior in PvP. This is based on my own testing combining factors of sustain, damage, mitigation, and healing. Seems to be the conclusion everyone else who pvp's has come to as well. I have seen no data stating otherwise. A graph showing people using more medium only tells me that I still have time to wreck face before the newbies and pve'rs on vacation in Cyro figure it out.

Hmmm your words, or a Graph from the devs.

I think the devs are right. Now if your opinion is heavy is OP then you opinion stands strong, but its not fact.

Not everyone agrees with your opinion though, I don't watch streamers.

I have not seen any graph from the devs stating one armor is superior to another friend. If such a graph doesn't exist, what are you stating the devs are right about? I don't watch streamers either, please try to stay on topic and not assume things because you don't understand.

I never said anthing was superior, I was refuting your claim that Heavy armor is superior with a graph that states majority of PVPer wear medium/Light armor even though heavy armor is supposedly 'superior'

I don't see why a minority of players would wear 'superior' armor.

So are you actually trying to make a point or just constantly going to reference that graph as if it can't be interpreted in a dozen different ways?

It's not like you can't set foot in Cyrodiil for 30 minutes and see for yourself how its a tank zergfest at the moment.

I already made my point, Heavy armor is NOT superior like you trolls say it is, You keep saying everyone wears heavy armor but data proves otherwise, yet people like you ignore Dev data and make claims with no evidence.

Well almost all the good players are in heavy armor.

Good point, yes I agree but imo any armor can work if you just practice and build around it.

Not to say heavy armor isn't strong but it's definitely not meta like people think it is, I hope that clears things up for others in this thread making that claim.

I doubt anybody here complaining about HA has actually tried it more than 30 minutes in Cyro.

Surely it must be shuffle-junkies, proctards and EOTS spammers QQing about how OP it is.

With everyone and their sister running about with crazy penetration (for Sharpened reign Supreme), players wearing HA melt like butter in a frying pan just like the others.

Only black rose may be a problem, but next balance patch sort of solves this.
Sort of.

SnubbS wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

I doubt anybody here complaining about HA has actually tried it more than 30 minutes in Cyro.

Surely it must be shuffle-junkies, proctards and EOTS spammers QQing about how OP it is.

With everyone and their sister running about with crazy penetration (for Sharpened reign Supreme), players wearing HA melt like butter in a frying pan just like the others.

Only black rose may be a problem, but next balance patch sort of solves this.
Sort of.

"Shuffle-junkies" so every stam build in the game?

Blackrose is not OP -- it does not make HA OP, and when the most effective meta-builds in ESO are running it after the nerf, everyone will see that. Rattlecage on a Destro Magplar is probably the best HA-Spec/Class pairing right now. Fury can easily replace Blackrose on StamSorc/StamDK.

When you have a set outperforming medium armor for stamina return and light armor for magicka return, to the point that their respective cost discounts don't even matter... something's a little out of whack.

Using Black Rose outside of Cyrodiil? I agree. But in PvP... that's a different story.