Two Handed Weapons & Set Bonuses

leothedino · January 2017

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

IronCrystal · January 2017

Read one of the hundreds of threads talking about this.

Jim_Pipp · January 2017

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

The main reason is that they are not two items... I do agree it feels like a disadvantage but it is just one of the choices you make when theorycrafting as no build can have everything you would want.

Browiseth · January 2017

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

itsfatbass · January 2017

In a way, they already do. You get full trait benefit from a 2 hander.

old_mufasa · January 2017

Browiseth wrote: »

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

What does that have to do with set bonuses?

Sheezabeast · January 2017

The staff gets one enchantment, it is traditionally one weapon held by 2 hands, by logic it should be one set piece not two. If you want a second 5 piece get a helm or shoulder, Zos added monster 1 pieces that give regen, spell/weapon damage, or max stat. This old topic has never made sense. Don't be so childish because you want 5 instead of your 4.

leothedino · January 2017

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Don't be so childish because you want 5 instead of your 4.

Slightly off topic, but there is nothing more senseless then passive aggression on an open forum for discussion and debate.

leepalmer95 · January 2017

leothedino wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Don't be so childish because you want 5 instead of your 4.

Slightly off topic, but there is nothing more senseless then passive aggression on an open forum for discussion and debate.

There is literally hundreds on threads on this, if you want discussion couldn't you have searched for one of these threads instead of opening yet another one.

AlMcFly · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

leothedino wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Don't be so childish because you want 5 instead of your 4.

Slightly off topic, but there is nothing more senseless then passive aggression on an open forum for discussion and debate.

There is literally hundreds on threads on this, if you want discussion couldn't you have searched for one of these threads instead of opening yet another one.

Then you would berate OP for necroing a thread. Don't act like you won't. Scumbags are scumbags, no matter what you do @leothedino

STEVIL · January 2017

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

I believe the choice was made in part to provide differentiation and meaningful choices between the weapon skill lines. It "matters" in very organics ways whether or not you choose one bigger weapon or two smaller ones or a shields and one.

Right now it matters as far as cost to create and time to farm - takes twice as much to gather two than one (though some of the drop chances may be changing in HS but so far no sign of making swords cost half the gold tempers to optimize that bows do.) one of those organic differences is which sets let you gain the full bonuses.

I say "which sets" because with quite a few decent to very good sets you can get the full benefit from a 2H/bow/staff just like you do with DW or S_S. If one of the 5pc bonuses is a long duration or cooldown you are just fine with it being "off" during that period when it cannot trigger.

CLEVER ALCHEMIST - gains big bonus to damage for 15s but cannot proc again until your next potion which will be basically another 30s after that elapses. So having Clever weapon on one bar and Julianos weapon on another bar means all you have to so is be "on clever" bar when you drink and then swap over run your main Julianos attack bar. its easy to construct a build around that kind of swap scheme and get all the benefits of 2H going for you PLUS a full 5-5-2 set.

yes there are some inherent bonuses in the three 1pc lines.

Finally, at the higher tier, where maelstrom weapons and such are considered this goes away almost entirely because the "weapon sets" already occupy the available weapon slots leaving you with just the body slots and jewelry slots - and those weapon sets take into account these issues.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

What does that have to do with set bonuses?

THAT being the DW recent PTS changes to damage calculations - for clarity.

Sets bonuses were known when the skill lines were created, were involved at every play and playtest since and are involved now... so... all the data that has come in has included set bonuses and the other skill elements in their mix. When talking a change like adding an additional bonus to one set of skill lines builds (with some sets) damage changes have their place in the discussion unless you just want a change without regard to balance.

starkerealm · January 2017

AlMcFly wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

leothedino wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Don't be so childish because you want 5 instead of your 4.

Slightly off topic, but there is nothing more senseless then passive aggression on an open forum for discussion and debate.

There is literally hundreds on threads on this, if you want discussion couldn't you have searched for one of these threads instead of opening yet another one.

Then you would berate OP for necroing a thread. Don't act like you won't. Scumbags are scumbags, no matter what you do @leothedino

No, I would have berated the OP for necroing a thread. Probably with some snarky, "thine has returned from the depths hungry for fresh posts."

Mojmir · January 2017

What's funny is staff is considered a 2 hander, at no time during game play will you use 2 hands using it.

old_mufasa · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

I believe the choice was made in part to provide differentiation and meaningful choices between the weapon skill lines. It "matters" in very organics ways whether or not you choose one bigger weapon or two smaller ones or a shields and one.

Right now it matters as far as cost to create and time to farm - takes twice as much to gather two than one (though some of the drop chances may be changing in HS but so far no sign of making swords cost half the gold tempers to optimize that bows do.) one of those organic differences is which sets let you gain the full bonuses.

I say "which sets" because with quite a few decent to very good sets you can get the full benefit from a 2H/bow/staff just like you do with DW or S_S. If one of the 5pc bonuses is a long duration or cooldown you are just fine with it being "off" during that period when it cannot trigger.

CLEVER ALCHEMIST - gains big bonus to damage for 15s but cannot proc again until your next potion which will be basically another 30s after that elapses. So having Clever weapon on one bar and Julianos weapon on another bar means all you have to so is be "on clever" bar when you drink and then swap over run your main Julianos attack bar. its easy to construct a build around that kind of swap scheme and get all the benefits of 2H going for you PLUS a full 5-5-2 set.

yes there are some inherent bonuses in the three 1pc lines.

Finally, at the higher tier, where maelstrom weapons and such are considered this goes away almost entirely because the "weapon sets" already occupy the available weapon slots leaving you with just the body slots and jewelry slots - and those weapon sets take into account these issues.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

What does that have to do with set bonuses?

THAT being the DW recent PTS changes to damage calculations - for clarity.

Sets bonuses were known when the skill lines were created, were involved at every play and playtest since and are involved now... so... all the data that has come in has included set bonuses and the other skill elements in their mix. When talking a change like adding an additional bonus to one set of skill lines builds (with some sets) damage changes have their place in the discussion unless you just want a change without regard to balance.

I'm sorry in what way did the OP or anyone say.. hey we want 2handers to count as 2 set items set but don't balance it if you do....

It does pigeon hole 2 handers.. as there are more then just caster 2 handers... you have more options as DW and SnB.. and all people are saying is that we would like more options.. that's really not a hard concept to understand.

STEVIL · January 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

I believe the choice was made in part to provide differentiation and meaningful choices between the weapon skill lines. It "matters" in very organics ways whether or not you choose one bigger weapon or two smaller ones or a shields and one.

Right now it matters as far as cost to create and time to farm - takes twice as much to gather two than one (though some of the drop chances may be changing in HS but so far no sign of making swords cost half the gold tempers to optimize that bows do.) one of those organic differences is which sets let you gain the full bonuses.

I say "which sets" because with quite a few decent to very good sets you can get the full benefit from a 2H/bow/staff just like you do with DW or S_S. If one of the 5pc bonuses is a long duration or cooldown you are just fine with it being "off" during that period when it cannot trigger.

CLEVER ALCHEMIST - gains big bonus to damage for 15s but cannot proc again until your next potion which will be basically another 30s after that elapses. So having Clever weapon on one bar and Julianos weapon on another bar means all you have to so is be "on clever" bar when you drink and then swap over run your main Julianos attack bar. its easy to construct a build around that kind of swap scheme and get all the benefits of 2H going for you PLUS a full 5-5-2 set.

yes there are some inherent bonuses in the three 1pc lines.

Finally, at the higher tier, where maelstrom weapons and such are considered this goes away almost entirely because the "weapon sets" already occupy the available weapon slots leaving you with just the body slots and jewelry slots - and those weapon sets take into account these issues.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

What does that have to do with set bonuses?

THAT being the DW recent PTS changes to damage calculations - for clarity.

Sets bonuses were known when the skill lines were created, were involved at every play and playtest since and are involved now... so... all the data that has come in has included set bonuses and the other skill elements in their mix. When talking a change like adding an additional bonus to one set of skill lines builds (with some sets) damage changes have their place in the discussion unless you just want a change without regard to balance.

I'm sorry in what way did the OP or anyone say.. hey we want 2handers to count as 2 set items set but don't balance it if you do....

It does pigeon hole 2 handers.. as there are more then just caster 2 handers... you have more options as DW and SnB.. and all people are saying is that we would like more options.. that's really not a hard concept to understand.

Re the bold - i did not make that claim.

In response to someone asking what recent nerfs to dw damage had to do with it - i explained the linkages between set bonuses and test and play results vis-a-vis balance. it seemed an appropriate response to someone who didn't understand the relevance of spell and weapon damage between the lines apparently.

The first OP asked several questions about various factors including capabilities within the skill lines etc and the responses there also seemed relevant.

Hope this helps.

STEVIL · January 2017

old_mufasa wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

I believe the choice was made in part to provide differentiation and meaningful choices between the weapon skill lines. It "matters" in very organics ways whether or not you choose one bigger weapon or two smaller ones or a shields and one.

Right now it matters as far as cost to create and time to farm - takes twice as much to gather two than one (though some of the drop chances may be changing in HS but so far no sign of making swords cost half the gold tempers to optimize that bows do.) one of those organic differences is which sets let you gain the full bonuses.

I say "which sets" because with quite a few decent to very good sets you can get the full benefit from a 2H/bow/staff just like you do with DW or S_S. If one of the 5pc bonuses is a long duration or cooldown you are just fine with it being "off" during that period when it cannot trigger.

CLEVER ALCHEMIST - gains big bonus to damage for 15s but cannot proc again until your next potion which will be basically another 30s after that elapses. So having Clever weapon on one bar and Julianos weapon on another bar means all you have to so is be "on clever" bar when you drink and then swap over run your main Julianos attack bar. its easy to construct a build around that kind of swap scheme and get all the benefits of 2H going for you PLUS a full 5-5-2 set.

yes there are some inherent bonuses in the three 1pc lines.

Finally, at the higher tier, where maelstrom weapons and such are considered this goes away almost entirely because the "weapon sets" already occupy the available weapon slots leaving you with just the body slots and jewelry slots - and those weapon sets take into account these issues.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

they literally just nerfed DW to be more in line with two-handed, guys

What does that have to do with set bonuses?

THAT being the DW recent PTS changes to damage calculations - for clarity.

Sets bonuses were known when the skill lines were created, were involved at every play and playtest since and are involved now... so... all the data that has come in has included set bonuses and the other skill elements in their mix. When talking a change like adding an additional bonus to one set of skill lines builds (with some sets) damage changes have their place in the discussion unless you just want a change without regard to balance.

I'm sorry in what way did the OP or anyone say.. hey we want 2handers to count as 2 set items set but don't balance it if you do....

It does pigeon hole 2 handers.. as there are more then just caster 2 handers... you have more options as DW and SnB.. and all people are saying is that we would like more options.. that's really not a hard concept to understand.

RE the bold -

first not agreeing and not understanding are two different thing. There are many different online dictionaries that can help you with the difference.

I for one am happy that the "options" for DW/SB are different than the "options" for Bow/2h/staff. i dont want them to be the same - which is exactly what a move to have 2 set bonus for non-maelstrom/master weapons sets would move closer to. See what people are asking for is really not just "more options" but "the same options as those who made the other choice" which makes the impact of that choice of weapon less than it is now.

I run DW 2H and bow so i know this is not just about casters. My bow users and my @h users makes different choices than my DW does in terms of sets -avoiding some, preferring others - because of those differences - my choices in one area guide my choices in another and i have plenty of options.

IMX "pigeon-holing" is much more often a result of player preferences than anything else.

Finally, if you recognize that such a change would involve rebalancing and trade-offs, then you do realize its not just "more options" being asked for but "more options and reductions in what we have now" which means you will be hitting and taking away from other who prefer the way it is now to get your preference - so this isn't just a "more" but a "more for you" and a "less for me" kind of move.

I and my "swapper" bow sets will lose - maybe we lose damage maybe we lose crit bonus who knows but we lose something if this isn't to be a buff - and because of the sets i use there wont be any appreciable gain to offset it. those cooldown sets will no longer be as much the "good options" for these builds. maybe my clever alchemist greatsword khajit will lose the final heal tick of rally with no real gain.

usually when you are looking at a change which will in and of itself then require rebalancing a whole skill line - wait four skill lines - you start with a compelling NEED to make the change - and to me "i want the same options regardless of weapon skill line choice" doesn't make a very compelling need for this (and is in fact in and of itself a negative)

Emencie · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

usually when you are looking at a change which will in and of itself then require rebalancing a whole skill line - wait four skill lines - you start with a compelling NEED to make the change - and to me "i want the same options regardless of weapon skill line choice" doesn't make a very compelling need for this (and is in fact in and of itself a negative)

I think the reason this comes up so often is because of how powerful set bonuses are, especially in pvp. Most of the time I die, more than 50% of the damage that was dealt to me came from a set. You cannot get away from people complaining about proc sets. So when making a build people often look at 2 handers and go, "I'm at an inherent dissadvantage because I'm missing a set." and this becomes the reason and need for the requested change.

Imho this is a problem with how good certain sets are, not with 2 handers. But as long as it exists these threads will exist. There was a similar problem in TOR and they solved it by making every weapon line dual wielding, simply if you used one 2 handed weapon, you also carried an item with you that went on your second weapon slot.

notimetocare · January 2017

I would post a dead horse gif but I am on mobile... Someone else do it

STEVIL · January 2017

Emencie wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

usually when you are looking at a change which will in and of itself then require rebalancing a whole skill line - wait four skill lines - you start with a compelling NEED to make the change - and to me "i want the same options regardless of weapon skill line choice" doesn't make a very compelling need for this (and is in fact in and of itself a negative)

I think the reason this comes up so often is because of how powerful set bonuses are, especially in pvp. Most of the time I die, more than 50% of the damage that was dealt to me came from a set. You cannot get away from people complaining about proc sets. So when making a build people often look at 2 handers and go, "I'm at an inherent dissadvantage because I'm missing a set." and this becomes the reason and need for the requested change.

Imho this is a problem with how good certain sets are, not with 2 handers. But as long as it exists these threads will exist. There was a similar problem in TOR and they solved it by making every weapon line dual wielding, simply if you used one 2 handed weapon, you also carried an item with you that went on your second weapon slot.

First EVERY time you die and EVERY time you kill my bet is more than half your damage comes from sets/gear.

When is the last time you checked your dps and damage output in white quality non-set gear?

The recap set (aka proc set) just make this overt by showing some of their damage on the recap screen as separate line items.

Second I can agree this is part of the "reasoning" for some, wanting to get three bursts from proc sets in a gank. Thats just not usually stated. However in other cases i have sern long term dps cited too and that isnt a case where proc sets are top dog choices so... its only some.

Third i would agree that if the decision was made to reduce weapon diversity by making every weapon have the same set counts the "second piece" would also be my preferred route.

kongkim · January 2017

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

Im all with you here. i really hope that they make that some day. and its not that hard with some stat tweaks to the skill lines or passives

Its just more fun to make builds with duel or shield then the others

SodanTok · January 2017

This is complain that will be ever present until ZoS finally says no or yes. So to anyone complaining about this, just get used to it. And by it I dont mean only making 2H count as 2 pieces, but any solution that will minimize the pretty big gap between having 2 set bonuses and 3 set bonuses.

It even more obvious issue currently, when armor is half the damage people deal.

Artemiisia · January 2017

notimetocare wrote: »

I would post a dead horse gif but I am on mobile... Someone else do it

delarb14_ESO · June 2017

I would like to try a ice staff tank warden but having 2nd handed staves count as only 1 item for item sets makes this not practical. I would like to see 2hd weapons count as two items for set count purposes.

Sigtric · June 2017

leothedino wrote: »

I've been curious as to why ZoS didn't allow two handed weapons to count for two of the five set bonuses. I primarily use a destro staff mag-sorc, and feel somewhat disappointed that I can't enjoy the benefits of two five-set bonuses and a monster set, as duel-wielders and sword & board tanks can.

I like my destruction staff, I know people like their bows and two-handed melee weapons too, but I can't help feel they just really could be more viable if they counted as two pieces of a set. What are ZoS's reasons? Do two-handed weapon stats balance this issue out in a way I can't see? Do people feel similar? A curiosity really, and wondering if I missed something along the way.

1 item = 1 piece for set bonus

Sigtric · June 2017

gdi necro thread

Tryxus · June 2017

delarb14_ESO wrote: »

I would like to try a ice staff tank warden but having 2nd handed staves count as only 1 item for item sets makes this not practical. I would like to see 2hd weapons count as two items for set count purposes.

While I admire your tenacity in bringing several threads about this subject back to the front page, I'm still disgusted by your Necromancy

179809d1373210666t-apple-going-down-billions-tax-fraud-thread-necromancy.png

179809d1373210666t-apple-going-down-billions-tax-fraud-thread-necromancy.png

ZOS_Bill · June 2017

As this is an old thread that may be outdated, we are closing the thread as a necro. If there are no current threads on this topic you can start a new thread. Please use the search function in the top right corner in order to find recent discussions.

Two Handed Weapons &amp; Set Bonuses

Two Handed Weapons & Set Bonuses