Are 9-trait crafting sets worth it?

Asardes · January 2017

Armor Master is pretty bad for PvE tanks. Some people use it in PvP for the added resistance because they wear mostly light or medium and want to be more tanky, but it seem to be rather niche there as well. It's bad because you need to slot and recast the same armor skill, taking up a bar slot and also resources. Also if you switch bars you lose the health and resistance bonus. Which for PvE tanks are mostly wasted since you are usually close to the resistance cap with 5 heavy and shield anyway, even with no reinforced, and the added health is not that helpful if you already have Ebon Armory, which now comes with jewelry. In fact with Ebon you are at 26-28K health without buffing it, depending on race, if you have full undaunted and heavy armor passives, which is sufficient even for veteran trials if you know what you are doing. From a resources and utility point of view, Tava's Blessing is way better than Armor Master, since you can change the bars all the time, and you only need to recast shuffle every ~20s, instead of every 10s, which is needed to maintain the Armor Master bonus. You also gain loads of ultimate, which is more warhorn uptime, and if you are DK, more resources back.

kylewwefan · January 2017

Last time I listened to some of these forums I made up a set of heavy Kagrenacs to tank.....got my butt rocked by the warrior...it was embarrassing AF. Armor Master is amazing strong; you'll have no problem tanking vet content with it.

Asardes · January 2017

Kagrenac's Hope is a DD set, was pretty decent at some point, but Julianos outperforms it by far. It's still a niche set for PvP healers because of the fast resurrection bonus, but I never heard of it being used on a tank. Before TG most tanks used Hist Bark, which is still a decent set, combined with Footman's Fortune and Bloodspawn, which is still meta, or Engine Guardian. The problem with the latter is that VDSA was only scaled to CP160 recently, and when it was scaled the mitigation bonus from that set has been reduced from 12% to 8%, making it less attractive.

Brrrofski · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No, armor master is useless.

Anyway, worth what? Pressing a button every few days and leaving it do it all itself? It's hardly work. It does it in the background while you play. So just research everything.

It might be useless to you, but there are plenty of good options that can be made out of it. Not every build needs to be YouTube streamer approved to be relevant.

Nah, there's better options on every single situation. You don't need that much resistances, don't need that much health. You're utterly useless in your group. You're adding nothing. Using tavas and giving people warhorn or go a damage tank is just better in every way.

I don't need YouTube guides. One is my signature is completely my own tank build with literally no outside referencing.

Brrrofski · January 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Kagrenac's Hope is a DD set, was pretty decent at some point, but Julianos outperforms it by far. It's still a niche set for PvP healers because of the fast resurrection bonus, but I never heard of it being used on a tank. Before TG most tanks used Hist Bark, which is still a decent set, combined with Footman's Fortune and Bloodspawn, which is still meta, or Engine Guardian. The problem with the latter is that VDSA was only scaled to CP160 recently, and when it was scaled the mitigation bonus from that set has been reduced from 12% to 8%, making it less attractive.

How is Kagernacs niche for PvP healing? Kags is a solid PvP set. It's widely used. Especially in this heavy armor meta. It's good for magica tanks too (for dungeons, not trials) and still decent on a PvE healer (again, pledges not trials)

Brrrofski · January 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Kagrenac's Hope is a DD set, was pretty decent at some point, but Julianos outperforms it by far. It's still a niche set for PvP healers because of the fast resurrection bonus, but I never heard of it being used on a tank. Before TG most tanks used Hist Bark, which is still a decent set, combined with Footman's Fortune and Bloodspawn, which is still meta, or Engine Guardian. The problem with the latter is that VDSA was only scaled to CP160 recently, and when it was scaled the mitigation bonus from that set has been reduced from 12% to 8%, making it less attractive.

I've done it in 5 kags, 2 bloodspawn and 5 baharas on my saptank. Even did it once with nerin'eth instead of bloodspawn.

Then 5 tavas, 2 bloodspawn, 5 wearwoolf hide.

No armor master in sight. It is literally not needed.

Asardes · January 2017

If you want sustain, Armor of the Seducer is far better than Kagrenac's. And that's a 3 trait set. As magicka tank that's far better, because you need sustain to keep shields up and use the utility skills. I actually run 5 Willow's Path + 5 Amber Plasm on my magicka sorc tank. I have 2.4K magicka regen with Thief mundus. I spam hardened, shattering prison, and heal from crits as I keep boundless storm and liquid lightning up all the time. The stamina regeneration stacks nicely to 1.35K, because I block only what can get past the shields. I've beaten all dungeons on HM with that setup, but I won't bring it in trials.

Buffler · January 2017

as far as Im aware (i might be wrong) although warhorn is having its crit dmg reducedcto 15% its now additive rather than multiplicitive and the actual dmg is staying the same

Brrrofski · January 2017

Asardes wrote: »

If you want sustain, Armor of the Seducer is far better than Kagrenac's. And that's a 3 trait set. As magicka tank that's far better, because you need sustain to keep shields up and use the utility skills. I actually run 5 Willow's Path + 5 Amber Plasm on my magicka sorc tank. I have 2.4K magicka regen with Thief mundus. I spam hardened, shattering prison, and heal from crits as I keep boundless storm and liquid lightning up all the time. The stamina regeneration stacks nicely to 1.35K, because I block only what can get past the shields. I've beaten all dungeons on HM with that setup, but I won't bring it in trials.

Yeh, seducer is a good option too. I mean, I tank on a nightbalde only now, so sihponing kinda makes regen almost pointless. So kags gives me buggers pools and more damage (those funnels, saps, paths, veils, shooting stars all add up). But I was going to make a sorc tank (it's easiest way to get undaunted as you can always get in with group finder) and was going to use seducer for it.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No, armor master is useless.

Anyway, worth what? Pressing a button every few days and leaving it do it all itself? It's hardly work. It does it in the background while you play. So just research everything.

It might be useless to you, but there are plenty of good options that can be made out of it. Not every build needs to be YouTube streamer approved to be relevant.

Nah, there's better options on every single situation. You don't need that much resistances, don't need that much health. You're utterly useless in your group. You're adding nothing. Using tavas and giving people warhorn or go a damage tank is just better in every way.

I don't need YouTube guides. One is my signature is completely my own tank build with literally no outside referencing.

Maybe YOU don't need that much resist or health, but it doesn't mean some don't. Also, I've never heard someone in Cyrodiil say, "You know what? I have way too much health and defense."

I get that there are better combos. I'm simply stating that it can be useful.

Asardes · January 2017

There are sets that work in PvE, and there are sets that work in PvP. There are a few which work in both PvE and PvP. But for both the same holds true - the higher the health you have, the lower the magicka and stamina pools, thus the lower the damage output and utility. In PvE a tank must withstand damage, and health should be only high enough to withstand boss attacks without being killed in one hit, while also having a high enough stamina pool to block effectively without running out of it, and a high enough magicka pool and recovery to use utility skills to support the group. In practice 27-30K health is enough even for a trials tank. If you have 40K but you run out of stamina and magicka you will die much faster when The Warrior or the axes in AA pound you. PvP is a whole other deal, since both healing and damage are halved and you get 5K extra health from battle spirit. So the build, including the gear, should be different. An Ebon/Tava/Bloodspawn trials tank is next to useless in PvP, the same way a Black Rose/Viper/Tremorscale tank would be useless in a trial. Good players have at least 2 sets of gear, and even more bar setups for different scenarios.

Flameheart · January 2017

GilGalad wrote: »

With the changes to warhorn with update 13 TBS will be worse than for example julianos. BSW would be the better option if you get an uptime arround 50%.

This. At least for PvE dps.

Brrrofski · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No, armor master is useless.

Anyway, worth what? Pressing a button every few days and leaving it do it all itself? It's hardly work. It does it in the background while you play. So just research everything.

It might be useless to you, but there are plenty of good options that can be made out of it. Not every build needs to be YouTube streamer approved to be relevant.

Nah, there's better options on every single situation. You don't need that much resistances, don't need that much health. You're utterly useless in your group. You're adding nothing. Using tavas and giving people warhorn or go a damage tank is just better in every way.

I don't need YouTube guides. One is my signature is completely my own tank build with literally no outside referencing.

Maybe YOU don't need that much resist or health, but it doesn't mean some don't. Also, I've never heard someone in Cyrodiil say, "You know what? I have way too much health and defense."

I get that there are better combos. I'm simply stating that it can be useful.

No, nobody needs that much.

Learn to play with less, help your group more.

Because some people needs crutch doesn't justify how good a set is.

Anybody could put on armor master and survive. Learn to tank with as little as you can in terms of selfishness yet still survive, then provide utility for your group.

Asardes · January 2017

Resistance is more nuanced. Basically the cap is 33.5K that gives you 50% mitigation. Having more than that is useless since it won't help you at all in PvE. There are a few situation where you get a debuff, but not that many. Also NPCs don't have penetration and don't crit. In PvP people have sharp weapons and penetration sets (Spriggan, Spinner) they debuff, for example with ransack. So going slightly above that cap makes sense. But most of your mitigation as tank comes from blocking. Some things can't be blocked, for example ground based AoE. Which is in most cases magic/elemental. So having capped spell resistance and putting more points in thick skinned and elemental defender is better than having capped physical resistance and putting points in hardy, at least in the current content. And you can easily reach the spell resistance cap if you are a DK and you wear Lord Warden, which also has very good group utility. You only need to go to about 31-32K (warded) since the healer will run combat prayer that will bring you to the cap. Procs from Bloodspawn and Lord Warden will put you over the cap.

Brrrofski · January 2017

For all the dungeons you don't need cap.

I've done pretty much every dungeon on hard mode with no healer on my saptank and my resistances are like 27k and 26k.

Resistances are overrated.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No, armor master is useless.

Anyway, worth what? Pressing a button every few days and leaving it do it all itself? It's hardly work. It does it in the background while you play. So just research everything.

It might be useless to you, but there are plenty of good options that can be made out of it. Not every build needs to be YouTube streamer approved to be relevant.

Nah, there's better options on every single situation. You don't need that much resistances, don't need that much health. You're utterly useless in your group. You're adding nothing. Using tavas and giving people warhorn or go a damage tank is just better in every way.

I don't need YouTube guides. One is my signature is completely my own tank build with literally no outside referencing.

Maybe YOU don't need that much resist or health, but it doesn't mean some don't. Also, I've never heard someone in Cyrodiil say, "You know what? I have way too much health and defense."

I get that there are better combos. I'm simply stating that it can be useful.

No, nobody needs that much.

Learn to play with less, help your group more.

Because some people needs crutch doesn't justify how good a set is.

Anybody could put on armor master and survive. Learn to tank with as little as you can in terms of selfishness yet still survive, then provide utility for your group.

I understand where you're coming from in trials and dungeons. In Cyrodiil though, you can't be serious. There are people with 50k health pools (and higher) that absorb insane damage, basically insta heal with Vigor, and can tank 10 people at once. How you can't see that helping a group is quite bewildering.

For the record, my build is more in line with what you're saying. Just enough health and resistance to stay alive and then as much magic/spell power I can muster for DPS. But going face to face with a Cyrodiil-style health tank is one of the toughest things to do in this game. Yes, you can "just leave them alone" but 90% of people don't and their DPS friend standing behind them melts people.

Long story short ... there are other options than simply playing the best mathematical build that can still be useful in the right hands.

Brrrofski · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

No, armor master is useless.

Anyway, worth what? Pressing a button every few days and leaving it do it all itself? It's hardly work. It does it in the background while you play. So just research everything.

It might be useless to you, but there are plenty of good options that can be made out of it. Not every build needs to be YouTube streamer approved to be relevant.

Nah, there's better options on every single situation. You don't need that much resistances, don't need that much health. You're utterly useless in your group. You're adding nothing. Using tavas and giving people warhorn or go a damage tank is just better in every way.

I don't need YouTube guides. One is my signature is completely my own tank build with literally no outside referencing.

Maybe YOU don't need that much resist or health, but it doesn't mean some don't. Also, I've never heard someone in Cyrodiil say, "You know what? I have way too much health and defense."

I get that there are better combos. I'm simply stating that it can be useful.

No, nobody needs that much.

Learn to play with less, help your group more.

Because some people needs crutch doesn't justify how good a set is.

Anybody could put on armor master and survive. Learn to tank with as little as you can in terms of selfishness yet still survive, then provide utility for your group.

I understand where you're coming from in trials and dungeons. In Cyrodiil though, you can't be serious. There are people with 50k health pools (and higher) that absorb insane damage, basically insta heal with Vigor, and can tank 10 people at once. How you can't that helping a group is quite bewildering.

For the record, my build is more in line with what you're saying. Just enough health and resistance to stay alive and then as much magic/spell power I can muster for DPS. But going face to face with a Cyrodiil-style health tank is one of the toughest things to do in this game. Yes, you can "just leave them alone" but 90% of people don't and their DPS friend standing behind them melts people.

Long story short ... there are other options than simply playing the best mathematical build that can still be useful in the right hands.

Maybe it's because I ignore tanks like that. I know some don't, but I literally ignore full on tanks in PvP.

But then you get those tanks in PvP who talon and cc and cause chaos. Some that are tanky as hell but still can deal damage. You can't ignore those players.

Asardes · January 2017

Well, if those people have >50K health, they probably have little magicka or stamina, so they can't damage you that much. They are not a threat. More likely you will only damage yourself attacking them, if they are blazing shield Templars. So you can nuke the squishier ones and just ignore them or at least save them for last. And nowadays those people are not even using Armor Master. Most likely the newer dropped sets, like Plague Doctor or Green Pact which allow you to stack much higher health.

Brrrofski · January 2017

Plus if you're going to tank in PvP, it's ALL a out sustain. Having 5k more resistances and 5k more health will keep you alive about 3 more seconds when you can't block, heal or cc break.

I use Kagernacs, grothdrarr and bloodthorn touch on my saptank in PvP. I can get beat on by multiple people, sustain it and actually kill people.

Fudly_budly · January 2017

Ok. Read through the posts. Know this: ESO Homestead is going live soon. Any player who doesn't have all 9 traits for all weapons and armor can forget about getting any attunable home furnishings until all research for everything is done.
Also (PC-NA), nirnhoned "research" gear is running about 17k for ea. weapon and 9k ea. for armor so be prepared for a big bite unless you have the nirncrux (potent and fortified) and someone trustworthy to craft for you.

Robbmrp · January 2017

From a crafters perspective, I do make a lot of 9 trait sets. They are listed below based on how often they are made. I think I've made one Pelinal set is all. The majority are the top 3.

1- Twice Born
2 -Morkuldin
3 -Eternal Hunt
4- Armor Master
5- Pelinal's

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

Robbmrp wrote: »

From a crafters perspective, I do make a lot of 9 trait sets. They are listed below based on how often they are made. I think I've made one Pelinal set is all. The majority are the top 3.

1- Twice Born
2 -Morkuldin
3 -Eternal Hunt
4- Armor Master
5- Pelinal's

People ask me to craft TBS every week. It's by far the most requested set I've seen.

Robbmrp · January 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

From a crafters perspective, I do make a lot of 9 trait sets. They are listed below based on how often they are made. I think I've made one Pelinal set is all. The majority are the top 3.

1- Twice Born
2 -Morkuldin
3 -Eternal Hunt
4- Armor Master
5- Pelinal's

People ask me to craft TBS every week. It's by far the most requested set I've seen.

Same here.