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PvP: Risk and Reward

Vert32
Vert32
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It should be to no ones surprise to hear that The Elder Scrolls Online ("ESO") Play versus Player ("PvP") is plagued with issues: class imbalances, armor imbalances, skill imbalances, generally poor mechanics, lack of diverse game-play (the train track around the imperial city), TERRIBLE game performance, and so much more. If you disagree with any of the above that okay. I'm not looking for discussion as to what is wrong with Cyrodiil and how to fix it. I would like to address the concept of Risk and Reward ("RR") and how I believe it should apply to ESO (as well as any game that wants to have any level of competitive game-play).

Risk and reward is a simple concept that most people already know. Low levels of uncertainty (low-risk) are associated with low potential returns, whereas high levels of uncertainty (high-risk) are associated with high potential returns. This concept is primarily applied to financial investments but I believe risk-return can benefit any game that seeks to embody a competitive environment. As I see it, RR is a fleeting concept in ESO. In this narrative, I would like to apply RR to player builds and groups in ESO PvP.

BUILDS

The best aspect of ESO, in my opinion, is the diversity of builds that players can choose from: race, armor, attribute points, skills, food/drinks, potions, play-styles, etc. Diversity such as this is something that I look for in any game that I play and at first ESO did it so well. . . but not any more. Being able to balance so many variables is no small feat, and there is no guaranteed way to accomplish this (except maybe soft/hard caps. . .). Applying RR to character builds is pretty straight forward. The reward in a combat scenario is to survive and ultimately defeat your opponent. Your build determines the amount of risk you are willing to give to accomplish the reward. The amount of risk associate with a character build is determined by how difficult that build is to play. Low risk builds allow players to make more mistakes in combat, while high risk builds are very unforgiving. It is more difficult to play and be successful with a high risk build but the reward should be greater. Currently, low risk builds are easier to survive, sustain, and defeat opponents with. The following paragraphs will outline inconsistencies with RR and builds.

For this example I would like to look at armor types, although the RR concept can be applied to any of the variables listed above. As I see it and as it currently is in ESO, light and medium armor hold more risk than heavy armor. If armor type were to adhere to the RR concept, then light and medium armor should have a greater reward than heavy armor. This is not currently the case. The reward of wearing heavy armor definitely outweighs that of light or medium. Sure, you wont technically be able to output as much damage when wearing heavy armor over light or medium but it is not too far behind. The primary benefits to wearing heavy armor are that you wont have to worry about healing yourself as frequently, avoiding damage, or resource management. This adds up to more time spent dealing damage as compared to a light or medium armor wearer, who would have to suspend dealing damage to survive. If you agree with this then the concept of RR does not apply to the current state of armor. Wearing heavy armor provides the user a lower risk of death and greater reward of survival and defeating their opponent.

Reminder, this issue does not a only apply to armor types. For example, I would argue that each race (magic and stamina oriented) can be placed on a spectrum of risk or survivability. My list is as follows, from least to most risky: MagPlar, StamDK, StamSorc, StamPlar, StamNB, MagSorc, MagDK, and MagNB. It is difficult to place the races on a risk spectrum without considering other build variables so I admit that the order to my list is somewhat based upon most common build (armor and loadout) seen in cyrodiil. I also took into consideration the amount of skill that is required to be successful with each build. For example, MagSorc can be quite survivable with their ability to remain mobile and stack shields under pressure but only a skilled player will be able to do that and also be able to output damage. Also, StamNB are one of the most played classes if not the most played class in the game but they can be difficult to survive with when compared to the other classes above them. StamNB, as a class, have a low level of survivability but very high reward as they have the some of the most burst damage in the game. The order of my list may be somewhat subjective and may be adjusted but, in general, I believe it is quite true to the point I am trying to make.

The race-risk list above places each race on a spectrum of least to most risky. If the RR concept were to be applied, then the MagPlar should have the least reward, the ability to defeat their opponent or heal themselves or their allies, and the MagNB should have the greatest reward. As I see it, this is not currently the case in ESO. There are specific builds that limit the amount of risk (i.e. survivability and mistakes made without repercussions) but offer high reward.

Note: I do not want to consider character builds that survive almost all incoming damage without dealing damage, are able to sustain resources indefinitely, and rely upon group member to actually defeat opponents. Those builds should not exist but that is for another conversation.

It should also be noted that the discussion above pertains to an open world environment. I understand that balancing builds in various scenarios is difficult (i.e. dueling or one vs. one, small group vs. group, and zerg vs. zerg). As I see it, any build in a group, depending upon the group dynamic, alters the RR concept but can also exacerbate the balance issues. Again, that is for another conversation.

GROUPS

The RR concept should also be applied to group play. Group play balance for the purpose of this discussion only considers size and not other variables such as character build. To apply the RR concept to group size let us consider two different groups, larger and smaller. Larger groups have a lower risk of survival compared to smaller groups. Larger groups also have a greater reward, the ability to output more damage and healing, than smaller groups. And it should be the case that larger groups have an "easier" time defeating smaller groups. Easier is in quotations because I believe that there should be a consideration to player skill that allows for smaller groups or solo players to defeat larger groups. And to some extent there is. On each ESO server there are a few small groups that coordinate character builds and skill very well and are able to consistently defeat groups larger than their own. But, in general, the mechanics/changes to the game that are currently implemented in PvP are almost always, if not always, in favor of larger groups. The only game mechanic that would benefit small groups when combating larger groups are AOEs and this mechanic has been specifically changed to assist larger groups, who already had the advantage. Again, this is a discussion about RR, not AOEs. AOEs are just a factor of RR in this conversation. Recent patch notes indicate that the AOE cap percentages are expected to change for the better (in my opinion), although they will still benefit larger groups due to the reduced damage to groups larger than six.

I believe that smaller group play/solo play should be encouraged. Always playing in groups larger than your opponent's group is a crutch for lack of skill on an individual level. These players (the majority of ESO PvP players) will more than likely never improve and do not care when they can just join a larger group and "steamroll" the inner ring of keeps. And I completely understand why players are drawn towards large group play. It is very frustrating having all odds stacked against you when playing solo or in an outnumbered situation and you are being barraged with game mechanics that hinder your ability to compete (i.e. AOE caps, snares, poisons, etc.). Especially when you are challenging your abilities to become a better player. I also completely understand why it is in ZeniMax Online Studios ("ZOS") interest to benefit larger groups through in game mechanics. Larger groups equal more players and more player equal more games sold and potential for in game purchases.

I only argue that there should be changes to game mechanics that reward solo players/small groups for taking all of the risks associated with rivaling larger groups. I do not claim to have definite answers as to how to accomplish this but I would start by looking at all the mechanics that benefit large groups and go from there.

CONCLUSION

Risk and reward was once a concept that made ESO a diverse and fun game to play. Today (unless you are in a large group) if you want compete, you better using a "meta build". It should be the case that any two players with the same skill level wearing end game gear have an even chance of success regardless of race, armor, or skills on the bar. That is far from a reality and as I see it will not change.

MY ENDNOTES AND THOUGHTS

I chose not to include my opinions on how to fix issues with ESO PvP because I do not see a benefit. As far as I can tell, the ESO Forums are a place for people to bicker between one another to no end and for ZOS to selectively chime in on issues that they agree with while not commenting on issues that they disagree with because their answers are not to the benefit of the game or the players but to themselves. ZOS is a company that needs to make money to continue to produce content and operate servers, which I understand. If ZOS alters content to benefit skilled game play, then unskilled game play will suffer.

The fact is that the vast majority of players in Cyrodiil are low skill players and don't have the patience or interest to actually improve because it is too easy to outnumber your opponent and be "successful". I believe that almost every decision ZOS makes comes down to pleasing the masses and making a profit. Creating a good game has taken a back seat to getting more people playing and making in game purchases. Every patch released makes this more and more apparent, especially the latest patch notes that are being sold to PvP players as a "balance" patch when in reality it is a homestead patch (and ZOS is going to make a whole lot of money from homestead). Some of the adjustments to balance are welcomed but most of the adjustments make it clear that ZOS does know what is wrong their own game and/or just do not care. The largest problems, as I see it, are that ZOS is not transparent with their intentions and does not communicate with the people that know the game the best, the committed and skillful players. Ultimately, balance and PvP are not a priority. And why would it be, ZOS can't sell improvements to an existing infrastructure.

I believe that if there were significant investments (people, time, and money) into performance (actually fixing lag and not just chipping away at campaign player capacity or killing wildlife), balance, and actually creating a GOOD game and not just pleasing the masses, then people would be excited to play and ZOS would be rewarded with a larger player base. For quite some time I haven't been able say that ESO is a good game when people ask and I don't believe that will change. The sad thing is that I would bet the nice employees of ZOS (and I mean that) believe that they are making a good game because player count and profits are up (I don't know if that is true but I think it is). When in reality ZOS lost sight of creating a good, competitive game a long time ago.

For the time being I will play ESO here and there while trying to find another game that I am as passionate about as I once was for ESO.

END-ENDNOTES

ZOS prioritizes content based on players historical reactions and purchases. The first time I really saw this was when the Dro-m'Athra Senche Mount ($$$) was released and people ate it up. Then some more expensive mounts were released and then crown crates and now housing. Which in my subjective opinion, is a complete waste of time but it appeals to many people. I would only argue that if you truly care about PvP, to stop reinforcing ZOS's decisions to prioritize aesthetic content by purchasing it. ZOS has limited resources (people, time, and money) and if those resources are being diverted to create more aesthetics then there are less available resources to improve PvP.

I understand that this forum post is far too long for most people to take an interest in and I don't expect it too get much attention. My intent was to attempt to create an objective narrative that addressed the "big picture" issues of PvP and ESO and not specific issues. From what I can see, forum threads are about what skill, armor, class, etc. are broken and the conversation has no real impact because, as stated above, ZOS rarely meaningfully chimes in to balance changes that would benefit skilled game play.

Objectivity is not an easy task to accomplish when one is passionate about a subject. And I am/was very passionate about ESO. The game had so much potential, a GREAT platform, combat system, play-style diversity, and a passionate community.

I am terrible at editing my own writing, so please excuse poor spelling, sentence structure, and grammar.
Edited by Vert32 on January 9, 2017 6:22AM
  • ThePonzzz
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    I didn't thoroughly read your post, but quoting this...
    Risk and reward was once a concept that made ESO a diverse and fun game to play. Today (unless you are in a large group) if you want compete, you better using a "meta build". It should be the case that any two players with the same skill level wearing end game gear have an even chance of success regardless of race, armor, or skills on the bar. That is far from a reality and as I see it will not change.

    ...is not exactly accurate. I solo and do small scale PvP almost always. I'm currently on Trueflamme, but I've been on Haderus for awhile now. I don't have a single one of the new proc sets and I'm a stamina nightblade. I know facing a tank 1v1 I'm not going to do well unless I can catch them off guard to gain an advantage. I can 1vX other nightblades (especially those that don't cloak). Sorcerers are just hit or miss.

    I earn roughly 50k - 70k AP a play cycle (1 to 2 hours). I do try for Blessings of War when I get a chance.
  • inflaburwb17_ESO
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    This is seriously a lot to read.
  • JamieAubrey
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    Rewards - Absolutely Sweet FA

    Reward bags are garbage 1 in every 100 kills or so or its just completely random

    I'll read the wall of text later
  • alephthiago
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    You know....i always feel bad when you guys come up with some huuuuge ideas and endless writing because lets face it: ZOS DOESNT CARE.

    Remember they tried to make cities and imperial city interesting by placing flags on them, that is the most uninspired cliche idea ever.

    They might just give flag collectibles for all players playing the top bottom classes and call it a day for all i know.
    Walks-in-Shadowss AD Magblade
    *** kitty AD Stamblade
    Paarthurnax's Will AD Magicka DK
    agnar cracked skull EP Magicka DK (veteran dragonstar arena bot)
    Klogi Mugdul AD Stamina DK
    Savre Selranni AD Magicka Sorc (being polished)
    Avenar Lolhealing AD Magicka Templar (being polished)

  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @theponzzz I agree, it's not impossible to 1vX but generally if you or anybody else successfully defeats a group that outnumbers you or your group it's most likely that the opponents are oblivious to skillful combat and/or are not running a low risk build.
  • Messy1
    Messy1
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    I think medium and light armor needs buff. I switched to heavy armor on a character and now it takes 7+ people to take me down and I can even kill some of them and this is only at lvl 20. Just wait til my nord hits 50 and then I put CP 160 gear on him, he's gunna be one of those 80k+ health dudes. It's cool, but kinda annoying fir most people.
    Edited by Messy1 on January 9, 2017 6:47AM
  • ThePonzzz
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @theponzzz I agree, it's not impossible to 1vX but generally if you or anybody else successfully defeats a group that outnumbers you or your group it's most likely that the opponents are oblivious to skillful combat and/or are not running a low risk build.

    Well yes, part of being good at PvP is picking your battles. But a lot of what you posted also sounds like you're in a 30-day campaign. Have you tried a smaller campaign?
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @inflaburwb17_ESO and @alephthiago I agree that the narrative is far too long and I did not expect anybody to take the time to thoroughly read it. It was more for myself to get my thoughts out. I also agree @alephthiago that ZOS does not care. There is conversation in my memoirs that address ZOS lack of interest in PvP. It is unfortunate.
  • inflaburwb17_ESO
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    Though I do play it a lot, I'm not a hardcore PvP player.

    My only 2 gripes are:

    - "Rewards for the Worthy" items that are so severely limited. I wish they'd include motifs or even crafting and upgrade materials as rewards.
    - That you cannot deposit AP into the bank.

  • ThePonzzz
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    Though I do play it a lot, I'm not a hardcore PvP player.

    My only 2 gripes are:

    - "Rewards for the Worthy" items that are so severely limited. I wish they'd include motifs or even crafting and upgrade materials as rewards.
    - That you cannot deposit AP into the bank.

    Why would you want to deposit AP, to use it on another character?
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @inflaburwb17_ESO Those are good points but the "Reward" concept in the narrative addresses immaterial rewards. Risk and reward is primarily an financial investment concept that I am attempting to relate to lack of diversity in character builds and large group dominance.
  • inflaburwb17_ESO
    inflaburwb17_ESO
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    ThePonzzz wrote: »
    Though I do play it a lot, I'm not a hardcore PvP player.

    My only 2 gripes are:

    - "Rewards for the Worthy" items that are so severely limited. I wish they'd include motifs or even crafting and upgrade materials as rewards.
    - That you cannot deposit AP into the bank.

    Why would you want to deposit AP, to use it on another character?

    Yep. Like Tel Var stone and gold, why can't we bank our AP for any of our characters to access?
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @Messy1 That is exactly to the point of the narrative. Your switch from medium to heavy provided you with mostly improvements resulting in a more sustainable/survivable (low risk) build and you are able to be just as successful in defeating your opponents (high reward).
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @ThePonzzz I agree that a good PvP player is defined by more than just skill. The decision of when to engage or disengage is just as if not more important to being successful in outnumbered situations. But none of the narrative can be solved by switching campaigns. I know it's long so I do not expect anyone to read it.
  • idk
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @inflaburwb17_ESO and @alephthiago I agree that the narrative is far too long and I did not expect anybody to take the time to thoroughly read it. It was more for myself to get my thoughts out. I also agree @alephthiago that ZOS does not care. There is conversation in my memoirs that address ZOS lack of interest in PvP. It is unfortunate.

    @Vert32

    Actually Zos does care and has made changes base on player feedback. Anyone who pays attention to the forums knows this. It does not mean Zos changes everything feedback requests since that would be chaotic (no one can agree on anything) but also ill advised on many subjects.

    With that, I really doubt Zos will read the wall of words, Well written posts that get to the point without fluff are easier to read. The OP here could have been written is less thatn 1/3 the words and would convey the message more effectively.
  • ThePonzzz
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @ThePonzzz I agree that a good PvP player is defined by more than just skill. The decision of when to engage or disengage is just as if not more important to being successful in outnumbered situations. But none of the narrative can be solved by switching campaigns. I know it's long so I do not expect anyone to read it.

    I went back and read more. That's why I'm assuming you're on a 30-day campaign. When I switched from Haderus to Trueflamme last month, I was in utter shock of the numbers. I just remember looking over the Chalman wall and seeing a sea of DC players sieging multiple sides. I was very ineffective my first week or so on Trueflamme compared to what I did on Haderus. With more players around, my AP even took a dive because I wasn't able to make the same number of kills per hour. I've since adjusted, but I still enjoy(ed) Haderus a bit more for the smaller scale PvP.

    I'm not saying switching campaigns will solve the risk vs. reward, but you won't be mowed down by full raids as much. You'll run into a lot more 1v1 and 1vX gameplay. I also don't roll with zergs unless a PUG invites me and I'm not feeling very motivated to seek out combat that I enjoy.
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @Giles.floydub17_ESO Thank you and I agree that there was far more written than needed to be. That was a little bit of my passion for the game slipping out and non-optimal writing skills. They need a buff.
  • alephthiago
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @inflaburwb17_ESO and @alephthiago I agree that the narrative is far too long and I did not expect anybody to take the time to thoroughly read it. It was more for myself to get my thoughts out. I also agree @alephthiago that ZOS does not care. There is conversation in my memoirs that address ZOS lack of interest in PvP. It is unfortunate.

    @Vert32

    Actually Zos does care and has made changes base on player feedback. Anyone who pays attention to the forums knows this. It does not mean Zos changes everything feedback requests since that would be chaotic (no one can agree on anything) but also ill advised on many subjects.

    With that, I really doubt Zos will read the wall of words, Well written posts that get to the point without fluff are easier to read. The OP here could have been written is less thatn 1/3 the words and would convey the message more effectively.

    My point is zos dont spend their time developing fun, in-depth systems, mechanics and/or anything that requires too much thought, work and developing. They always just go for the easiest placeholder they can come with, cyrodiil's war is the same concept since the game left beta (some changes to campaign duration, emperor etc etc), most of our DLC's were already ready at that time too, IC district's capture system is the same as regular resource capture, those three cities work IN THE SAME WAY too.

    Cant you guys see the trend here?
    Walks-in-Shadowss AD Magblade
    *** kitty AD Stamblade
    Paarthurnax's Will AD Magicka DK
    agnar cracked skull EP Magicka DK (veteran dragonstar arena bot)
    Klogi Mugdul AD Stamina DK
    Savre Selranni AD Magicka Sorc (being polished)
    Avenar Lolhealing AD Magicka Templar (being polished)

  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @ThePonzzz I agree that lower player count servers are more fun due to smaller groups and I wish they were still a possibility for me but sadly I'm on PS4. Lame I know. There is only one server that has any gameplay that isn't single alliance dominated.

    None the less, the issue remains that large groups are too incentivized by ZOS. Smaller groups should have some reward, even if not greater than larger groups reward, to compensate for the risk of running in a smaller group because being outnumbered is already to your disadvantage. Almost all, in not all, game mechanics benefit larger groups versus smaller groups.
  • ThePonzzz
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @ThePonzzz I agree that lower player count servers are more fun due to smaller groups and I wish they were still a possibility for me but sadly I'm on PS4. Lame I know. There is only one server that has any gameplay that isn't single alliance dominated.

    None the less, the issue remains that large groups are too incentivized by ZOS. Smaller groups should have some reward, even if not greater than larger groups reward, to compensate for the risk of running in a smaller group because being outnumbered is already to your disadvantage. Almost all, in not all, game mechanics benefit larger groups versus smaller groups.

    I always find the decrease in AP in large groups to be the single most motivating thing to break away from the zerg. Smaller groups can rip through a trash zerg though. You mentioned in your OP that numbers and poor skill are more successful. But if the group is genuinely poorly skilled, you can do some decent damage with siege/skilled players. Don't get farmed, don't take the bait. That's another good piece of advice.

    I don't know the troubles that the consoles face, so I won't comment much beyond that.
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @Giles.floydub17_ESO I agree that ZOS makes changes based on forums comments but I don't believe the various forum posts have a enough consistency or relation to effectively balance PvP. Balance consists of too many factors in relation to one another.

    Also, if I were to look back at the changes made from patch to patch that addressed balance I would consistently be able to find major balance failures. This point is a subjective, which I attempted to do as little of in my post, but take the current patch notes for instance. I would argue that they completely failed to address any real issues with the current imbalances:

    The outright advantages of wearing heavy armor and surviving easier and killing more effectively.

    Truly fixing gank builds by specifically adjusting the sets and mechanics that make them possible and instead throwing a blanket fix over them by taking away crits from all proc set simultaneously nerfing other sets that didn't need a nerf.

    Their lack of knowledge that Radiant Destruction is broken because the execute advantages are realized by players that use it before their opponents are in execute range and not completely due to the high damage but nerfed that instead.

    That the issue with DK is not a lack of damage but their lack of reliable healing, lack of accessible buffs that will fit on their bars equivalent to those of other classes, lack of a good gap closer, and lack of mobility.

    Again this is subjective but failing to make the above changes and more speak to ZOS's lack of attention, detail, or caring.
  • Vert32
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    @ThePonzzz I 100% agree that the diminishing return of AP for larger groups was a good change. But I would argue that it did not truely solve the issue because we now see more larger group in Cyrodiil more than ever even since that change.
  • ThePonzzz
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @ThePonzzz I 100% agree that the diminishing return of AP for larger groups was a good change. But I would argue that it did not truely solve the issue because we now see more larger group in Cyrodiil more than ever even since that change.

    Yeah, I don't know what the PS4 main campaign looks like, but I imagine it's terrible in terms of numbers.
  • Gilvoth
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    Vert32 wrote: »

    ... ESO ... and making a profit..
    = TLDR IMO

    it was a Fair Testimony, and i do agree, but i also do think that alot of the people at ESO are not looking at things through just pure $ glasses, but rather, there is alot more that we as a consumer cannot see and alot we do not know about the mechanics of eso.

    there will allways be things we cannot see that the developers see.
  • skiptomyluau
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    Can I get this post in hardback at Barnes yet
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @dwemer_paleologist I agree it was too long and I didn't write it expecting many people to read it. But I don't think that there are mechanics that are unknown. Mechanics aren't too difficult to identify. Maybe I'm wrong but if there are any unknown mechanics that I'm not considering.

    And if all mechanics are known and there are obvious game imbalances that will still exist according to the current patch notes, then even if there are people at ZOS that have good intentions they either fall short or are unable to properly balance.
  • Vert32
    Vert32
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    @skiptomyluau I wouldn't pay for it. In my opinion, it will yield no benefit. Begs the question as to why I spent the time writing it. . .
  • Messy1
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    Vert32 wrote: »
    @Messy1 That is exactly to the point of the narrative. Your switch from medium to heavy provided you with mostly improvements resulting in a more sustainable/survivable (low risk) build and you are able to be just as successful in defeating your opponents (high reward).

    Oh, yeah, I'm agreeing with you all the way. It's kinda the easy road . . . I have more fun playing my stam Nightblade and taking out the meat builds. Idk there are issues and I understand both sides. You can't blame players for taking the easy route. I think it starts with the skills, some of them are still broken or the mechanics are hard for casual players to understand so they just blindly copy the cookie cutter builds. I'm not a frustrated player, I have so many alts anfld can farm for sets and I trying really hard to get a complete on vMA so we'll see.
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