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You are part of the problem...
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inflaburwb17_ESO✭✭✭The real problem?
Idiots (yes, this is one case where the word "idiot" is truly applicable) who complain about the methods a company uses to generate income, but then complains when the company lays of staff, doesn't bring out new content, takes too long with maintenance, or are too slow to resolve bugs.
Let me post a new thread complaining about crown crates. Let me protest by placing some snotty remark about the crown crates in my signature. But when it comes to alternate suggestions on how the company can increase its revenue stream, I'm nowhere to be found.
If you don't support or believe in the Crown crates, don't buy them. Simple as that. And leave those be that have no issue with spending some of THEIR (ie, not yours) money on them.4 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Am I the only person that thinks ZoS priced the lacklustre elk mount so expensively as an attempt to make those atronach seem more value for 10k or more.CosmicSoul wrote: »Stormbeebe wrote: »CosmicSoul wrote: »
I agree with your first statements, however this is buy to play not free to play, and tons of people buy the dlc that should be support in itself, subbing is fine but they will make more if people buy dlc as well so lets not pretend just because some of you sub gives you a right to judge others for not subbing. Also the reason why those nich games did not do well is because they tried to copy other games instead of coming out with anything with depth and a creative mmorpg world.
I am not judging anyone for not subbing. It is all up to each person how they spend their excess cash. I just get annoyed when I read pages of complaints from people who don't want to pay for more content. Almost all games on the market that you pay a box fee for more then pay for themselves with the amount of content provide for the price IMO. I think people tend to get too immersed in the worlds and forget this is entertainment/hobby. Anyone passionate about a hobby or a particular kind of entertainment pays for it from concert tickets to charter fishing trips whatever floats your boat. It is just silly to me that so many gamers think that $60 entitles them to years of content and endless free updates/cosmetic items that take real money to develop and implement into the games. Bottom line is the gaming industry just like any other entertainment industry is for profit and they are entitled and in fact obligated to make profits to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why I wished they would of just stuck with sub based mmorpgs before they had item shops. Atleast the western mmorpgs didn't, but nooo people kept complaining they where not free like the asian mmorpgs and now look at what happened, if people would of stopped feeling so entitled we could of continued getting awesome mmorpgs releasing new content every month as long as we subbed.
There's one major issue with your argument, it ignores the fact this game was destined to flop and flop badly on consoles if it remained a sub only game. How would the PC crowd have reacted had the game remained sub only on one platform, yet console users got what we all currently have? There would have been an uproar. As idiotic as some people are with their money nowadays, I think making people pay to bypass 3 mandatory paywalls (IP, LIVE/PSN and sub) is a step too far. A sub only game works well on PC for obvious reasons, not on consoles unless the game in question requires no LIVE/PSN subscription.Edited by Prof_Bawbag on January 6, 2017 10:14AM1 -
ClandestineFoxSoul ShrivenDMuehlhausen wrote: »So something that they make, and do not force you to buy, which generates money that allows them to pay their employees to eventually make new content is an issue?
What do you want them to do. Be a fully donation only company? That seems to be what people want these days. I should be given everything and only need to give you money if I feel it's needed. You would probably be the first one in line with pitchforks complaining about the lack of content when they have no employees because nobody decided to donate to them.
The content that is being released now was in the works probably during the beta testing phase. They either stop that content to work on fixes for broken systems, or they ignore the systems and push out the content then go back to the broken systems. Either way people are going to be in an uproar when they feel like something they wanted more of or a fix for is not being worked on.
TL:DR - It makes them money to work on the game deal with it and stop complaining.
@DMuehlhausen
They won't use that money to work on the game. They will use it to work on the Crown Store.
Good, you clearly seem to think the crown store needs some revision >.>0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »The real problem?
Idiots (yes, this is one case where the word "idiot" is truly applicable) who complain about the methods a company uses to generate income, but then complains when the company lays of staff, doesn't bring out new content, takes too long with maintenance, or are too slow to resolve bugs.
Let me post a new thread complaining about crown crates. Let me protest by placing some snotty remark about the crown crates in my signature. But when it comes to alternate suggestions on how the company can increase its revenue stream, I'm nowhere to be found.
You mean like selling the stuff directly and making reasonably-sized DLCs like they have been doing before?
Rest assured, if I see the game improve on the next months despite the addition to the Crown Crates, I will be very happy. It would be wonderful if they took this money they made with the Crates and put it back in the game, as I said before. But thing is, that isn't what happens in the industry. This kind of strategy often comes up as a last ditch effort to get as much money as possible before moving on to another project, and the money goes into developing more stuff to the boxes, because they give back the most money with the least investment. A game can stay on life support like this for years like this, but it isn't exactly a good thing for people who like the game, is it?
It is not like we are stopping anyone who wants to spend their money in this from doing so, are we?inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »If you don't support or believe in the Crown crates, don't buy them. Simple as that. And leave those be that have no issue with spending some of THEIR (ie, not yours) money on them.
But informing people of the likely consequences of supporting this business model, consequences for the game and not only for their wallets? They can keep believing the way they spend their money has no consequences for the game, but the fact stands that you say "I agree with this" when you spend your money on them, even if some do not realize it or do not like to be told it.
Not that I am surprised. Many popular companies have very questionable business ethics, but people still believe it isn't their problem and buy their products anyway, directly enabling the company's behavior. And then when we say "This is what you are supporting", they say "Nonono, I would never support that! I'm just buying this product, it is my money I do what I want".Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Am I the only person that thinks ZoS priced the lacklustre elk mount so expensively as an attempt to make those atronach seem more value for 10k or more.CosmicSoul wrote: »Stormbeebe wrote: »CosmicSoul wrote: »
I agree with your first statements, however this is buy to play not free to play, and tons of people buy the dlc that should be support in itself, subbing is fine but they will make more if people buy dlc as well so lets not pretend just because some of you sub gives you a right to judge others for not subbing. Also the reason why those nich games did not do well is because they tried to copy other games instead of coming out with anything with depth and a creative mmorpg world.
I am not judging anyone for not subbing. It is all up to each person how they spend their excess cash. I just get annoyed when I read pages of complaints from people who don't want to pay for more content. Almost all games on the market that you pay a box fee for more then pay for themselves with the amount of content provide for the price IMO. I think people tend to get too immersed in the worlds and forget this is entertainment/hobby. Anyone passionate about a hobby or a particular kind of entertainment pays for it from concert tickets to charter fishing trips whatever floats your boat. It is just silly to me that so many gamers think that $60 entitles them to years of content and endless free updates/cosmetic items that take real money to develop and implement into the games. Bottom line is the gaming industry just like any other entertainment industry is for profit and they are entitled and in fact obligated to make profits to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why I wished they would of just stuck with sub based mmorpgs before they had item shops. Atleast the western mmorpgs didn't, but nooo people kept complaining they where not free like the asian mmorpgs and now look at what happened, if people would of stopped feeling so entitled we could of continued getting awesome mmorpgs releasing new content every month as long as we subbed.
There's one major issue with your argument, it ignores the fact this game was destined to flop and flop badly on consoles if it remained a sub only game. How would the PC crowd have reacted had the game remained sub only on one platform, yet console users got what we all currently have? There would have been an uproar. As idiotic as some people are with their money nowadays, I think making people pay to bypass 3 mandatory paywalls (IP, LIVE/PSN and sub) is a step too far. A sub only game works well on PC for obvious reasons, not on consoles unless the game in question requires no LIVE/PSN subscription.
There is an issue with yours as well. If players on consoles had problem with paying $15/month for mandatory subscription on top of paying for connection and console networking racket, they would have the same problem paying for optional sub, spend in cash shop or lose money gambling. Yet these options are there and generate enough revenue for it being worth, for ZOS, to run ESO on consoles. In other words, players on console are quite obviously willing to pay again on top of 2 paywalls, even though they supposedly are not.
Also, as for how the PC crowd would have reacted...if ZOS announced ESO would remain sub-only on PC/Mac, while only consoles would get cash shop, let alone scamboxes, I am sure the PC crowd would have been relieved and elated.Edited by JamilaRaj on January 6, 2017 12:49PM0 -
Soella✭✭✭✭Let's look into real gambling - online casino. Typically 70-90% of their income comes with less than 5% of their players. When I learnt it, I understood economy of all F2P and B2P games. Alas, we all (including subscribers as myself) are only background actors for such players.1 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's look into real gambling - online casino. Typically 70-90% of their income comes with less than 5% of their players. When I learnt it, I understood economy of all F2P and B2P games. Alas, we all (including subscribers as myself) are only background actors for such players.
Pretty much. We subscribers are not the target audience anymore.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
Preyfar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've bought a bunch of crates and own everything that's been put in the Crown Store. That said, I'm am getting kind of frustrated with the lack of content. Shadows of the Hist had minimal content (two dungeons that are hard to get groups for), One Tamriel (fixed a lot of the core game, which was great, but added no real content) and Homestead (housing is great, but there's no real meat to them.
I've enjoyed the festivals, but they too are light on content. Witches' Festival was awful (one quest, then lather, rinse, repeat 100X times) but the Life Festival was pretty good (just wish the racial quests were a bit longer and gave deeper insight into the different races). Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood had great stories, but were rather grindy.
I'm willing to support ZOS, but I'm really hoping for... something. A payoff. Great DLC, great expansions, something other more for end gamers. I'm an achievement hunter, but I can't even hunt achievements for Trials because I'm always stuck in the role of Dragonknight but I collect my achievements on my Nightlbade (damn, you, VMOL!).
I'm giving it until U14. If there's no real content -vs- grinding I'm not sure I'll keep up the support.
The Crown Crates are whale bait, and I'm a whale... but lack of content, repetition and the complete ignoring of PVP is turning ZOS into whale hunters (and not the good kind).Edited by Preyfar on January 6, 2017 1:29PM1 -
Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I get a supply of crowns with my subscription. I use that to buy whatever I want from the Crown store, including crown crates. So technically, ZOS isn't making anything extra off of me. They are just giving me another thing to spend my monthly allotment of crowns on.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
0.016%1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »The real problem?
People who complain about the methods a company uses to generate income, but then complains when the company lays of staff, doesn't bring out new content, takes too long with maintenance, or are too slow to resolve bugs.
If you don't support or believe in the Crown crates, don't buy them. Simple as that. And leave those be that have no issue with spending some of THEIR (ie, not yours) money on them.
Yes, people complain about how a company generates income, but it is unfortunate and sad when the company lays off staff, doesn't bring out new content, takes too long with maintenance, and is slow to resolve bugs.
These things are a result of decisions about how to run the business, not caused by people complaining about those decisions.
I put stuff in my signature because they highlight decisions that I do not agree with, or are things that need to be mentioned , and in the case of Crown Crates, do not agree or support. I do not support them financially, or conceptually. I do not judge people who buy them, even if others (on both sides) do. This is because fault lies with the company, not the players. It is pointless to blame the players for something that the company does.
It is also important to say that there is a difference between a successful game and a successful company. This is why I think that Crown Crates are a decision heading in the wrong direction. Ultimately, it can lead to the case where the company wants to focus business attention on a successful cash shop to make money, instead of the game.Edited by Elsonso on January 6, 2017 2:12PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Defilted✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am on Xbox and have subbed since day 1. I see no issue with it.
Xbox live is a Microsoft product. Want to use it pay for it. This has nothing to do with ZOS.
Nothing is free nor should it be.XBOX NA
XBOX Series X
#NightmareBear0 -
Prof_Bawbag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Am I the only person that thinks ZoS priced the lacklustre elk mount so expensively as an attempt to make those atronach seem more value for 10k or more.CosmicSoul wrote: »Stormbeebe wrote: »CosmicSoul wrote: »
I agree with your first statements, however this is buy to play not free to play, and tons of people buy the dlc that should be support in itself, subbing is fine but they will make more if people buy dlc as well so lets not pretend just because some of you sub gives you a right to judge others for not subbing. Also the reason why those nich games did not do well is because they tried to copy other games instead of coming out with anything with depth and a creative mmorpg world.
I am not judging anyone for not subbing. It is all up to each person how they spend their excess cash. I just get annoyed when I read pages of complaints from people who don't want to pay for more content. Almost all games on the market that you pay a box fee for more then pay for themselves with the amount of content provide for the price IMO. I think people tend to get too immersed in the worlds and forget this is entertainment/hobby. Anyone passionate about a hobby or a particular kind of entertainment pays for it from concert tickets to charter fishing trips whatever floats your boat. It is just silly to me that so many gamers think that $60 entitles them to years of content and endless free updates/cosmetic items that take real money to develop and implement into the games. Bottom line is the gaming industry just like any other entertainment industry is for profit and they are entitled and in fact obligated to make profits to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why I wished they would of just stuck with sub based mmorpgs before they had item shops. Atleast the western mmorpgs didn't, but nooo people kept complaining they where not free like the asian mmorpgs and now look at what happened, if people would of stopped feeling so entitled we could of continued getting awesome mmorpgs releasing new content every month as long as we subbed.
There's one major issue with your argument, it ignores the fact this game was destined to flop and flop badly on consoles if it remained a sub only game. How would the PC crowd have reacted had the game remained sub only on one platform, yet console users got what we all currently have? There would have been an uproar. As idiotic as some people are with their money nowadays, I think making people pay to bypass 3 mandatory paywalls (IP, LIVE/PSN and sub) is a step too far. A sub only game works well on PC for obvious reasons, not on consoles unless the game in question requires no LIVE/PSN subscription.
There is an issue with yours as well. If players on consoles had problem with paying $15/month for mandatory subscription on top of paying for connection and console networking racket, they would have the same problem paying for optional sub, spend in cash shop or lose money gambling. Yet these options are there and generate enough revenue for it being worth, for ZOS, to run ESO on consoles. In other words, players on console are quite obviously willing to pay again on top of 2 paywalls, even though they supposedly are not.
Also, as for how the PC crowd would have reacted...if ZOS announced ESO would remain sub-only on PC/Mac, while only consoles would get cash shop, let alone scamboxes, I am sure the PC crowd would have been relieved and elated.
The PSN/LIVE sub is neither here nor there because it is what it is. No point basing the argument around "If's". I mean, "if" may auntie had balls she'd be my uncle and all that nonsense. Those subs exist and there are millions upon millions of people who purchase them, so it doesn't make an iota of difference what you or I think about it. A lot of gamers stated they weren't going to entertain a 3rd paywalls when there was/are alternatives that allow us to play without a 3rd paywall. ZoS just didn't scrap that mandatory sub for nothing before releasing the game on consoles, there was a clear reason why that happened. here's the kicker, though, they also initially expected us to buy the game too. So if we wanted to play ESO we'd have had to pay £40/$60 and a sub fee on top. That model simply doesn't work on consoles because of the online sub requirements that are already in place.
You seem to be allowing your own personal gripes to shape your argument whilst ignoring the reality.
As for the scam boxes, you have zero data to back up your claim. For all we know, they could be a runaway success on PC. Another thing you don't take into account is, only a very small percentage of players frequent these forums and the people who have spoken out against these boxes on here don't exactly represent everyone on these forums either. So your vocal crowd gets even smaller and more insignificant. Has anyone counted up the unique comments posted within the anti crate threads? Most of the arguments against are from the same people, posting their opinions multiple times. The most laughable thing about that was, some even bought the crates themselves, then continued to moan about it. The vast majority of registered users didn't even bother posting in those threads.Edited by Prof_Bawbag on January 6, 2017 2:27PM0 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stopnaggin wrote: »
Yes we are, & yes it is.FortheloveofKrist wrote: »you are sending a message that the crates are a viable way to earn revenue
sooooooo.... I bought crates, I won the crate exclusive pet I really wanted.
I didn't get a storm mount & that's okay...
I did get some costume items that I wouldn't have bought but I will use them.
& I traded in the various crown potions for enough gems to buy a fabulous hat.
If the top prizes were something I was more interested in, I might open more crates!
Wouldn't it be nice if you could buy these things you got directly, though? Knowing exactly how much you will need to pay and exactly what you will get by paying that amount?
Before the crates, that's how every single thing used to be sold. I like that system better.
Like a 4500 crown mount? Value is different for everyone. To some the crates have value, and that is ok. I bought 15, nothing special even though the contents may have been of equal value. If the gem exchange rate was better or you could trade stuff you didn't want, ie argonian skins with no Argonians. Not enough for me buy anymore, but for some there is enough value.
There are two things to consider about the Elk. First, at least you know that, once you pay 4500, you get that mount, 100% sure of it. No RNG, no catches. Second, the rise on the price of stuff that is sold through direct purchase is one of the effects of the introduction of RNG Boxes.
But if you could trade in the stuff you don't want, even collectibles, that would make the crates much easier to accept. It is a suggestion I gave many times before.Stopnaggin wrote: »GeneralFlogger wrote: »I swear man, it seems to me that there are people out there who honestly believe that the devs should be our slaves over the next however many years just b/c they paid for the base game (prob after it dropped in price). The devs have to make money to keep the train rolling.
There are many people who like this game enough to spend disposable income on their hobby. Some others on this forum say these guys/girls are the problem, when in reality the ones spending the money are the ones supporting the continuation of the game.
Would you go to work, get paid for your first week then continue to work for free for the next 10 years?
Nobody is asking to have things for free. Quite the opposite, actually. We want to pay for things and get these exact things, directly, with no gamble.
You might notice that many people who oppose the crates are subscribers, long time players and people who are always excited for the next Crown Store showcases. We want to buy things directly, not participate on a RNG system using real money and hope for the best.
I am a subscriber, and I am for the crates, also playing since PS4 launch. Taking a sample size from a forum where the people against crates will be MUCH louder than the people for is a skewed statistic. We all get some of you want to pay for items from the crown store instead of gambling (and you can, just not all which is a happy medium for all parties), that point has been driven home to death, but its not going to happen. I and many others like the excitement of the unknown, its obviously a tactic which creates revenue, its here and it is not destroying the game like so many have suggested. Evidence of this is all the fancy mounts I am seeing around the game now, its busy! Let the crown crates roll, just in time for my subscription renewal and more useless crowns to use up.
Some of you really need to get a hold of yourself and get a good dose of reality "We are part of the problem" lol alright sure, but some here are also part of the problem creating a divisive community. You know what I would appreciate? Living in a free country where I can spend my money how I like without other people telling me how to spend it and accuse me of ruining the game. Get of your high horses already.
I didn't say every subscriber is against the crates, I said the loud people who are against the crates are mostly subscribers.
Also, the number of atronach mounts are no proof of the health of the game, they are proof that many people bought many crates. That's all. Proof of the health of the game would be quality content releases, frequent balance and stability patches and reasonably priced items in the Crown Store for direct purchase. And this would have to go on for several months to be definitive proof of the health of the game. It is too early to tell, they were introduced a month ago, all we can do is compare it to previous games that did the same as ESO with the same people working on the same thing, which doesn't paint a nice picture.
It's fine if you enjoy it, but don't act as if it is the only way to monetize the game, as if it would be all free otherwise. Like if people who are against this kind of business plan want things for free. It is just false.
And yes, you ARE part of the problem, because if there were no players enabling this kind of business plan, the gaming industry wouldn't have gotten where it is today. Better saying, WE are part of the problem, because I was in your place before, thinking it does no harm, that it is okay, that the game won't suffer. "This game will be different", I would say. But it never was.
You spend your money the way you prefer, but there are consequences, and you can close your eyes and pretend you had nothing to do with the consequences, but that is also false. Without buyers, there are no sellers. It is just the reality of it, and I am sorry if you don't like it.
I do not hold any of this against you and other pro-crate people. I won't kick you from groups, throw mudballs at you or make any snarky comments regarding your choices. As I said, I've been on your place before too, so that would be hypocritical of me. But the way you spend your money still have consequences. Your choices have consequences. This is not something you can escape of. This is reality.
About dividing the community... Pro-Crates are as aggressive and rude as Anti-Crate people (note how the tone of your post, telling us to "get off our high horses", is aggressive), so we are all part of this issue in particular (the division of the community). There is a way for ZOS to almost completely eliminate opposition to the crates and solve this issue, however, which is selling the non-themed stuff when the related crate is off-season.
Not to mention, it is obvious by some of the answers from Pro-Crate people (not you) that trolling is more important than the health of the game. It is a shame, really.
I sub, I couldnt care less about the crates. There are other ways to make money sure. What is so bad about crates? I mean you say they have consequences, how about the people that spent 4500 crowns for a mount? It was bought outright so no problems? Well why did the mount end up at 4500 crowns? How about the cs motifs, first 2200 crowns with 52 stones, this time 2000 crowns and 5 stones. That wasnt because of crates or pro/anti crate people. It's because people bought similar items before, from ZOS'S point of view why not see how far they can push?
So there are consequences for both sides of the argument. And yes I bought crates and both motifs. So I am part of the problem I guess. But so is everyone who spent any rlm in the crown store. I'm not going for the us and them thing. Greed is not one sides fault. Arguing against the crown crates is fine, but when it becomes some kind of moral crusade I'm done listening. It's a game, I work hard for my money and I spend it how I see fit. I don't criticize people for drinking, going to casino's or whatever they may do to relax and enjoy.
As far as the health of the game I think as of right now it's fine. More populated than I can remember before 1T, and crates haven't seem to run as many moral crusaders off as they would like people to think. For real it's pretty petty for someone to call out a group and say they are the reason for the doom of this game. If the game fails it won't be because of crates, it will from within, no new content, constant unfixed bugs, lag, nerfing and buffing the wrong skills and classes. None of this is under any of our control. Only time will tell if ESO will make the 10 year plan.
I'll explain. Do you have any previous experience with games that went from Buy-To-Play with Cash Shop business model to Free-To-Play with RNG Boxes business model? Because that's the direction ESO might very well be going, so if you have any previous experience with games that went through this same thing you probably know already what is so bad about the Crown Crates.
Shift in development focus. The introduction of RNG Boxes is a Free-To-Play Transition Strategy. This is actually a specialty of the person who was hired to do this, the implementation of strategies for the Free-To-Play transition (no, really, this is no secret, it is on her curriculum). When this strategy is adopted by a company, things change for the regular Cash Shop too: It most often comes with the introduction of things that were previously not locked behind paywalls (CS-Exclusive motifs), the increase of the price of items sold through direct purchase (Elk for 4500 Crowns) to make the boxes seem more attractive and a drop in quality of things sold through direct purchase.
Then we have the transition to Free-To-Play. If you ever played a Free-To-Play game, then of course you know how bad this model is for the health of this game. Less content is introduced, and of a lower quality. If it is already happening is debatable, but we did go from "One DLC every quarter!" to "Not every DLC will be big like Orsinium" and finally to "Not every quarterly update will be DLC".
Crates were introduced one month ago. They were planned for a while now, since the person hired to introduce them was hired early 2016 and the "sets of mounts" were datamined mid 2015. But there has been only one month for us to show them if it is a business model we support or not. We show our support by buying them, and we show that that's not what we want for the game by, well, not buying them.
So it comes down to what you want for the game, I guess. It will affect me even if I don't buy them, of course, because if the playerbase decides that this is indeed the business model they want and I stay in the game I will suffer the same consequences that the Pro-Crate people will, which is having a game that has the issues that F2P games have.
Taking your cassino or drinking example... I don't care if people do that either, unless it is affecting me. And the playerbase being fine with the change in the business model does affect me, since I also play the game.
Let's hope ZOS will do something unprecedented in the industry of MMOs and put all the money they make with the crates back into the game instead of on the development of more crate seasons (other than the three other seasons we know are coming). But history isn't on their side.
Ok but here's the thing we can agree on, we both like the game right? Is it still fun? For me yes, the crates don't have any effect on my enjoyment. All games should be for the fun. If they add something that has a negative effect on you to the point where the game is no longer enjoyable then it's time to move along.
As of yet we have no idea where the income from the cs is going. I have said as much before. I also stated before that if, big if, they use this extra revenue for the betterment of the game I'm all for it. Update 13 shows promise from the patch notes, I watch the PTS forums to see what's coming. I'm sure the amount of change in there took some cashflow. None of us can say for sure where that money came from. I'm old school, so yes I've seen the progression of games going to this model. Some survive some dont. Just like any non mmorpg. Why did games like Forza become successful and games like PGR only make it to a 3rd edition?
I guess my point is, if you want to make a statement I'm all for it, free speech. And for the record I'm not happy about the crates. Not enough value for my tastes. But I'm not going to say they are going to be the downfall of ESO. I personally have gotten my money's worth. Some people are way to serious, it's a game either enjoy it or dont. But to me its insulting to blame a group of players for a problem that hasn't happened yet.0 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've bought a bunch of crates and own everything that's been put in the Crown Store. That said, I'm am getting kind of frustrated with the lack of content. Shadows of the Hist had minimal content (two dungeons that are hard to get groups for), One Tamriel (fixed a lot of the core game, which was great, but added no real content) and Homestead (housing is great, but there's no real meat to them.
I've enjoyed the festivals, but they too are light on content. Witches' Festival was awful (one quest, then lather, rinse, repeat 100X times) but the Life Festival was pretty good (just wish the racial quests were a bit longer and gave deeper insight into the different races). Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood had great stories, but were rather grindy.
I'm willing to support ZOS, but I'm really hoping for... something. A payoff. Great DLC, great expansions, something other more for end gamers. I'm an achievement hunter, but I can't even hunt achievements for Trials because I'm always stuck in the role of Dragonknight but I collect my achievements on my Nightlbade (damn, you, VMOL!).
I'm giving it until U14. If there's no real content -vs- grinding I'm not sure I'll keep up the support.
The Crown Crates are whale bait, and I'm a whale... but lack of content, repetition and the complete ignoring of PVP is turning ZOS into whale hunters (and not the good kind).
The new update has more than housing. Although I don't think the balance people were asking for was properly addressed. Updated crafting writs is one I'm happy about. Yes it's not new content, but it is at least it's a fix. I personally would rather have a smoth game before any new content. I'm not saying we shouldn't see new content just a hold until they can fix the glaring issues that have been there since launch and 1t0 -
Panomania✭✭✭✭As of yet we have no idea where the income from the cs is going.
General operations....salaries, hardware, upkeep, infrastructure, etc....and future development. Bottom line, for all of you out there whining about ZoS charging for swag (and that is NOT directed at the person I quoted!!!): learn to deal with it, or learn to have the game go to subscribe to play. You cannot have it both ways.
Edited to remove insulting languageEdited by ZOS_DaryaK on January 6, 2017 4:00PMThe opinions of others should always be heard, especially if they dont agree with your own! But you always reserve the right to laugh at them.0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stopnaggin wrote: »Stopnaggin wrote: »
Yes we are, & yes it is.FortheloveofKrist wrote: »you are sending a message that the crates are a viable way to earn revenue
sooooooo.... I bought crates, I won the crate exclusive pet I really wanted.
I didn't get a storm mount & that's okay...
I did get some costume items that I wouldn't have bought but I will use them.
& I traded in the various crown potions for enough gems to buy a fabulous hat.
If the top prizes were something I was more interested in, I might open more crates!
Wouldn't it be nice if you could buy these things you got directly, though? Knowing exactly how much you will need to pay and exactly what you will get by paying that amount?
Before the crates, that's how every single thing used to be sold. I like that system better.
Like a 4500 crown mount? Value is different for everyone. To some the crates have value, and that is ok. I bought 15, nothing special even though the contents may have been of equal value. If the gem exchange rate was better or you could trade stuff you didn't want, ie argonian skins with no Argonians. Not enough for me buy anymore, but for some there is enough value.
There are two things to consider about the Elk. First, at least you know that, once you pay 4500, you get that mount, 100% sure of it. No RNG, no catches. Second, the rise on the price of stuff that is sold through direct purchase is one of the effects of the introduction of RNG Boxes.
But if you could trade in the stuff you don't want, even collectibles, that would make the crates much easier to accept. It is a suggestion I gave many times before.Stopnaggin wrote: »GeneralFlogger wrote: »I swear man, it seems to me that there are people out there who honestly believe that the devs should be our slaves over the next however many years just b/c they paid for the base game (prob after it dropped in price). The devs have to make money to keep the train rolling.
There are many people who like this game enough to spend disposable income on their hobby. Some others on this forum say these guys/girls are the problem, when in reality the ones spending the money are the ones supporting the continuation of the game.
Would you go to work, get paid for your first week then continue to work for free for the next 10 years?
Nobody is asking to have things for free. Quite the opposite, actually. We want to pay for things and get these exact things, directly, with no gamble.
You might notice that many people who oppose the crates are subscribers, long time players and people who are always excited for the next Crown Store showcases. We want to buy things directly, not participate on a RNG system using real money and hope for the best.
I am a subscriber, and I am for the crates, also playing since PS4 launch. Taking a sample size from a forum where the people against crates will be MUCH louder than the people for is a skewed statistic. We all get some of you want to pay for items from the crown store instead of gambling (and you can, just not all which is a happy medium for all parties), that point has been driven home to death, but its not going to happen. I and many others like the excitement of the unknown, its obviously a tactic which creates revenue, its here and it is not destroying the game like so many have suggested. Evidence of this is all the fancy mounts I am seeing around the game now, its busy! Let the crown crates roll, just in time for my subscription renewal and more useless crowns to use up.
Some of you really need to get a hold of yourself and get a good dose of reality "We are part of the problem" lol alright sure, but some here are also part of the problem creating a divisive community. You know what I would appreciate? Living in a free country where I can spend my money how I like without other people telling me how to spend it and accuse me of ruining the game. Get of your high horses already.
I didn't say every subscriber is against the crates, I said the loud people who are against the crates are mostly subscribers.
Also, the number of atronach mounts are no proof of the health of the game, they are proof that many people bought many crates. That's all. Proof of the health of the game would be quality content releases, frequent balance and stability patches and reasonably priced items in the Crown Store for direct purchase. And this would have to go on for several months to be definitive proof of the health of the game. It is too early to tell, they were introduced a month ago, all we can do is compare it to previous games that did the same as ESO with the same people working on the same thing, which doesn't paint a nice picture.
It's fine if you enjoy it, but don't act as if it is the only way to monetize the game, as if it would be all free otherwise. Like if people who are against this kind of business plan want things for free. It is just false.
And yes, you ARE part of the problem, because if there were no players enabling this kind of business plan, the gaming industry wouldn't have gotten where it is today. Better saying, WE are part of the problem, because I was in your place before, thinking it does no harm, that it is okay, that the game won't suffer. "This game will be different", I would say. But it never was.
You spend your money the way you prefer, but there are consequences, and you can close your eyes and pretend you had nothing to do with the consequences, but that is also false. Without buyers, there are no sellers. It is just the reality of it, and I am sorry if you don't like it.
I do not hold any of this against you and other pro-crate people. I won't kick you from groups, throw mudballs at you or make any snarky comments regarding your choices. As I said, I've been on your place before too, so that would be hypocritical of me. But the way you spend your money still have consequences. Your choices have consequences. This is not something you can escape of. This is reality.
About dividing the community... Pro-Crates are as aggressive and rude as Anti-Crate people (note how the tone of your post, telling us to "get off our high horses", is aggressive), so we are all part of this issue in particular (the division of the community). There is a way for ZOS to almost completely eliminate opposition to the crates and solve this issue, however, which is selling the non-themed stuff when the related crate is off-season.
Not to mention, it is obvious by some of the answers from Pro-Crate people (not you) that trolling is more important than the health of the game. It is a shame, really.
I sub, I couldnt care less about the crates. There are other ways to make money sure. What is so bad about crates? I mean you say they have consequences, how about the people that spent 4500 crowns for a mount? It was bought outright so no problems? Well why did the mount end up at 4500 crowns? How about the cs motifs, first 2200 crowns with 52 stones, this time 2000 crowns and 5 stones. That wasnt because of crates or pro/anti crate people. It's because people bought similar items before, from ZOS'S point of view why not see how far they can push?
So there are consequences for both sides of the argument. And yes I bought crates and both motifs. So I am part of the problem I guess. But so is everyone who spent any rlm in the crown store. I'm not going for the us and them thing. Greed is not one sides fault. Arguing against the crown crates is fine, but when it becomes some kind of moral crusade I'm done listening. It's a game, I work hard for my money and I spend it how I see fit. I don't criticize people for drinking, going to casino's or whatever they may do to relax and enjoy.
As far as the health of the game I think as of right now it's fine. More populated than I can remember before 1T, and crates haven't seem to run as many moral crusaders off as they would like people to think. For real it's pretty petty for someone to call out a group and say they are the reason for the doom of this game. If the game fails it won't be because of crates, it will from within, no new content, constant unfixed bugs, lag, nerfing and buffing the wrong skills and classes. None of this is under any of our control. Only time will tell if ESO will make the 10 year plan.
I'll explain. Do you have any previous experience with games that went from Buy-To-Play with Cash Shop business model to Free-To-Play with RNG Boxes business model? Because that's the direction ESO might very well be going, so if you have any previous experience with games that went through this same thing you probably know already what is so bad about the Crown Crates.
Shift in development focus. The introduction of RNG Boxes is a Free-To-Play Transition Strategy. This is actually a specialty of the person who was hired to do this, the implementation of strategies for the Free-To-Play transition (no, really, this is no secret, it is on her curriculum). When this strategy is adopted by a company, things change for the regular Cash Shop too: It most often comes with the introduction of things that were previously not locked behind paywalls (CS-Exclusive motifs), the increase of the price of items sold through direct purchase (Elk for 4500 Crowns) to make the boxes seem more attractive and a drop in quality of things sold through direct purchase.
Then we have the transition to Free-To-Play. If you ever played a Free-To-Play game, then of course you know how bad this model is for the health of this game. Less content is introduced, and of a lower quality. If it is already happening is debatable, but we did go from "One DLC every quarter!" to "Not every DLC will be big like Orsinium" and finally to "Not every quarterly update will be DLC".
Crates were introduced one month ago. They were planned for a while now, since the person hired to introduce them was hired early 2016 and the "sets of mounts" were datamined mid 2015. But there has been only one month for us to show them if it is a business model we support or not. We show our support by buying them, and we show that that's not what we want for the game by, well, not buying them.
So it comes down to what you want for the game, I guess. It will affect me even if I don't buy them, of course, because if the playerbase decides that this is indeed the business model they want and I stay in the game I will suffer the same consequences that the Pro-Crate people will, which is having a game that has the issues that F2P games have.
Taking your cassino or drinking example... I don't care if people do that either, unless it is affecting me. And the playerbase being fine with the change in the business model does affect me, since I also play the game.
Let's hope ZOS will do something unprecedented in the industry of MMOs and put all the money they make with the crates back into the game instead of on the development of more crate seasons (other than the three other seasons we know are coming). But history isn't on their side.
Ok but here's the thing we can agree on, we both like the game right? Is it still fun? For me yes, the crates don't have any effect on my enjoyment. All games should be for the fun. If they add something that has a negative effect on you to the point where the game is no longer enjoyable then it's time to move along.
As of yet we have no idea where the income from the cs is going. I have said as much before. I also stated before that if, big if, they use this extra revenue for the betterment of the game I'm all for it. Update 13 shows promise from the patch notes, I watch the PTS forums to see what's coming. I'm sure the amount of change in there took some cashflow. None of us can say for sure where that money came from. I'm old school, so yes I've seen the progression of games going to this model. Some survive some dont. Just like any non mmorpg. Why did games like Forza become successful and games like PGR only make it to a 3rd edition?
I guess my point is, if you want to make a statement I'm all for it, free speech. And for the record I'm not happy about the crates. Not enough value for my tastes. But I'm not going to say they are going to be the downfall of ESO. I personally have gotten my money's worth. Some people are way to serious, it's a game either enjoy it or dont. But to me its insulting to blame a group of players for a problem that hasn't happened yet.
Yes it is early to tell if ZOS will go the same route as the many companies before them or not (they are following that road so far, but they can take a different turn if ESO is still a long term project for them), but when you hire the same people to do the same thing they did before somewhere else, it is reasonable to expect a similar result.
I think we should keep letting them know what we DON'T want to happen to the game, you know? Because if we wait until it happens, it will be too late then.
The more we accept, the further the limits are pushed. We are the boiling frogs.
I don't want the game to just survive, I want it to thrive. It is my most beloved franchise here. It is a game, but it is one that I want to keep enjoying for years to come.
And I am sorry if it is insulting, but there are sellers only if there are buyers. And yes, the companies only do this kind of thing because we let them get away with it. There is no escaping of it, that goes for every single business. You go as far as your costumers let you.Edited by Abeille on January 6, 2017 2:46PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Am I the only person that thinks ZoS priced the lacklustre elk mount so expensively as an attempt to make those atronach seem more value for 10k or more.CosmicSoul wrote: »Stormbeebe wrote: »CosmicSoul wrote: »
I agree with your first statements, however this is buy to play not free to play, and tons of people buy the dlc that should be support in itself, subbing is fine but they will make more if people buy dlc as well so lets not pretend just because some of you sub gives you a right to judge others for not subbing. Also the reason why those nich games did not do well is because they tried to copy other games instead of coming out with anything with depth and a creative mmorpg world.
I am not judging anyone for not subbing. It is all up to each person how they spend their excess cash. I just get annoyed when I read pages of complaints from people who don't want to pay for more content. Almost all games on the market that you pay a box fee for more then pay for themselves with the amount of content provide for the price IMO. I think people tend to get too immersed in the worlds and forget this is entertainment/hobby. Anyone passionate about a hobby or a particular kind of entertainment pays for it from concert tickets to charter fishing trips whatever floats your boat. It is just silly to me that so many gamers think that $60 entitles them to years of content and endless free updates/cosmetic items that take real money to develop and implement into the games. Bottom line is the gaming industry just like any other entertainment industry is for profit and they are entitled and in fact obligated to make profits to survive.
And this is exactly the reason why I wished they would of just stuck with sub based mmorpgs before they had item shops. Atleast the western mmorpgs didn't, but nooo people kept complaining they where not free like the asian mmorpgs and now look at what happened, if people would of stopped feeling so entitled we could of continued getting awesome mmorpgs releasing new content every month as long as we subbed.
There's one major issue with your argument, it ignores the fact this game was destined to flop and flop badly on consoles if it remained a sub only game. How would the PC crowd have reacted had the game remained sub only on one platform, yet console users got what we all currently have? There would have been an uproar. As idiotic as some people are with their money nowadays, I think making people pay to bypass 3 mandatory paywalls (IP, LIVE/PSN and sub) is a step too far. A sub only game works well on PC for obvious reasons, not on consoles unless the game in question requires no LIVE/PSN subscription.
There is an issue with yours as well. If players on consoles had problem with paying $15/month for mandatory subscription on top of paying for connection and console networking racket, they would have the same problem paying for optional sub, spend in cash shop or lose money gambling. Yet these options are there and generate enough revenue for it being worth, for ZOS, to run ESO on consoles. In other words, players on console are quite obviously willing to pay again on top of 2 paywalls, even though they supposedly are not.
Also, as for how the PC crowd would have reacted...if ZOS announced ESO would remain sub-only on PC/Mac, while only consoles would get cash shop, let alone scamboxes, I am sure the PC crowd would have been relieved and elated.
The PSN/LIVE sub is neither here nor there because it is what it is. No point basing the argument around "If's".
Why do you start with that the game would flop if... then?Prof_Bawbag wrote: »I mean, "if" may auntie had balls she'd be my uncle and all that nonsense. Those subs exist and there are millions upon millions of people who purchase them, so it doesn't make an iota of difference what you or I think about it. A lot of gamers stated they weren't going to entertain a 3rd paywalls when there was/are alternatives that allow us to play without a 3rd paywall. ZoS just didn't scrap that mandatory sub for nothing before releasing the game on consoles, there was a clear reason why that happened. here's the kicker, though, they also initially expected us to buy the game too. So if we wanted to play ESO we'd have had to pay £40/$60 and a sub fee on top. That model simply doesn't work on consoles because of the online sub requirements that are already in place.
You seem to be allowing your own personal gripes to shape your argument whilst ignoring the reality.
As for the scam boxes, you have zero data to back up your claim. For all we know, they could be a runaway success on PC. Another thing you don't take into account is, only a very small percentage of players frequent these forums and the people who have spoken out against these boxes on here don't exactly represent everyone on these forums either. So your vocal crowd gets even smaller and more insignificant. Has anyone counted up the unique comments posted within the anti crate threads? Most of the arguments against are from the same people, posting their opinions multiple times. The most laughable thing about that was, some even bought the crates themselves, then continued to moan about it. The vast majority of registered users didn't even bother posting in those threads.
Frankly, that does not bother me. The good thing about zero data is that backing up that uprorar claim with it is equally difficult.0 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stopnaggin wrote: »Stopnaggin wrote: »
Yes we are, & yes it is.FortheloveofKrist wrote: »you are sending a message that the crates are a viable way to earn revenue
sooooooo.... I bought crates, I won the crate exclusive pet I really wanted.
I didn't get a storm mount & that's okay...
I did get some costume items that I wouldn't have bought but I will use them.
& I traded in the various crown potions for enough gems to buy a fabulous hat.
If the top prizes were something I was more interested in, I might open more crates!
Wouldn't it be nice if you could buy these things you got directly, though? Knowing exactly how much you will need to pay and exactly what you will get by paying that amount?
Before the crates, that's how every single thing used to be sold. I like that system better.
Like a 4500 crown mount? Value is different for everyone. To some the crates have value, and that is ok. I bought 15, nothing special even though the contents may have been of equal value. If the gem exchange rate was better or you could trade stuff you didn't want, ie argonian skins with no Argonians. Not enough for me buy anymore, but for some there is enough value.
There are two things to consider about the Elk. First, at least you know that, once you pay 4500, you get that mount, 100% sure of it. No RNG, no catches. Second, the rise on the price of stuff that is sold through direct purchase is one of the effects of the introduction of RNG Boxes.
But if you could trade in the stuff you don't want, even collectibles, that would make the crates much easier to accept. It is a suggestion I gave many times before.Stopnaggin wrote: »GeneralFlogger wrote: »I swear man, it seems to me that there are people out there who honestly believe that the devs should be our slaves over the next however many years just b/c they paid for the base game (prob after it dropped in price). The devs have to make money to keep the train rolling.
There are many people who like this game enough to spend disposable income on their hobby. Some others on this forum say these guys/girls are the problem, when in reality the ones spending the money are the ones supporting the continuation of the game.
Would you go to work, get paid for your first week then continue to work for free for the next 10 years?
Nobody is asking to have things for free. Quite the opposite, actually. We want to pay for things and get these exact things, directly, with no gamble.
You might notice that many people who oppose the crates are subscribers, long time players and people who are always excited for the next Crown Store showcases. We want to buy things directly, not participate on a RNG system using real money and hope for the best.
I am a subscriber, and I am for the crates, also playing since PS4 launch. Taking a sample size from a forum where the people against crates will be MUCH louder than the people for is a skewed statistic. We all get some of you want to pay for items from the crown store instead of gambling (and you can, just not all which is a happy medium for all parties), that point has been driven home to death, but its not going to happen. I and many others like the excitement of the unknown, its obviously a tactic which creates revenue, its here and it is not destroying the game like so many have suggested. Evidence of this is all the fancy mounts I am seeing around the game now, its busy! Let the crown crates roll, just in time for my subscription renewal and more useless crowns to use up.
Some of you really need to get a hold of yourself and get a good dose of reality "We are part of the problem" lol alright sure, but some here are also part of the problem creating a divisive community. You know what I would appreciate? Living in a free country where I can spend my money how I like without other people telling me how to spend it and accuse me of ruining the game. Get of your high horses already.
I didn't say every subscriber is against the crates, I said the loud people who are against the crates are mostly subscribers.
Also, the number of atronach mounts are no proof of the health of the game, they are proof that many people bought many crates. That's all. Proof of the health of the game would be quality content releases, frequent balance and stability patches and reasonably priced items in the Crown Store for direct purchase. And this would have to go on for several months to be definitive proof of the health of the game. It is too early to tell, they were introduced a month ago, all we can do is compare it to previous games that did the same as ESO with the same people working on the same thing, which doesn't paint a nice picture.
It's fine if you enjoy it, but don't act as if it is the only way to monetize the game, as if it would be all free otherwise. Like if people who are against this kind of business plan want things for free. It is just false.
And yes, you ARE part of the problem, because if there were no players enabling this kind of business plan, the gaming industry wouldn't have gotten where it is today. Better saying, WE are part of the problem, because I was in your place before, thinking it does no harm, that it is okay, that the game won't suffer. "This game will be different", I would say. But it never was.
You spend your money the way you prefer, but there are consequences, and you can close your eyes and pretend you had nothing to do with the consequences, but that is also false. Without buyers, there are no sellers. It is just the reality of it, and I am sorry if you don't like it.
I do not hold any of this against you and other pro-crate people. I won't kick you from groups, throw mudballs at you or make any snarky comments regarding your choices. As I said, I've been on your place before too, so that would be hypocritical of me. But the way you spend your money still have consequences. Your choices have consequences. This is not something you can escape of. This is reality.
About dividing the community... Pro-Crates are as aggressive and rude as Anti-Crate people (note how the tone of your post, telling us to "get off our high horses", is aggressive), so we are all part of this issue in particular (the division of the community). There is a way for ZOS to almost completely eliminate opposition to the crates and solve this issue, however, which is selling the non-themed stuff when the related crate is off-season.
Not to mention, it is obvious by some of the answers from Pro-Crate people (not you) that trolling is more important than the health of the game. It is a shame, really.
I sub, I couldnt care less about the crates. There are other ways to make money sure. What is so bad about crates? I mean you say they have consequences, how about the people that spent 4500 crowns for a mount? It was bought outright so no problems? Well why did the mount end up at 4500 crowns? How about the cs motifs, first 2200 crowns with 52 stones, this time 2000 crowns and 5 stones. That wasnt because of crates or pro/anti crate people. It's because people bought similar items before, from ZOS'S point of view why not see how far they can push?
So there are consequences for both sides of the argument. And yes I bought crates and both motifs. So I am part of the problem I guess. But so is everyone who spent any rlm in the crown store. I'm not going for the us and them thing. Greed is not one sides fault. Arguing against the crown crates is fine, but when it becomes some kind of moral crusade I'm done listening. It's a game, I work hard for my money and I spend it how I see fit. I don't criticize people for drinking, going to casino's or whatever they may do to relax and enjoy.
As far as the health of the game I think as of right now it's fine. More populated than I can remember before 1T, and crates haven't seem to run as many moral crusaders off as they would like people to think. For real it's pretty petty for someone to call out a group and say they are the reason for the doom of this game. If the game fails it won't be because of crates, it will from within, no new content, constant unfixed bugs, lag, nerfing and buffing the wrong skills and classes. None of this is under any of our control. Only time will tell if ESO will make the 10 year plan.
I'll explain. Do you have any previous experience with games that went from Buy-To-Play with Cash Shop business model to Free-To-Play with RNG Boxes business model? Because that's the direction ESO might very well be going, so if you have any previous experience with games that went through this same thing you probably know already what is so bad about the Crown Crates.
Shift in development focus. The introduction of RNG Boxes is a Free-To-Play Transition Strategy. This is actually a specialty of the person who was hired to do this, the implementation of strategies for the Free-To-Play transition (no, really, this is no secret, it is on her curriculum). When this strategy is adopted by a company, things change for the regular Cash Shop too: It most often comes with the introduction of things that were previously not locked behind paywalls (CS-Exclusive motifs), the increase of the price of items sold through direct purchase (Elk for 4500 Crowns) to make the boxes seem more attractive and a drop in quality of things sold through direct purchase.
Then we have the transition to Free-To-Play. If you ever played a Free-To-Play game, then of course you know how bad this model is for the health of this game. Less content is introduced, and of a lower quality. If it is already happening is debatable, but we did go from "One DLC every quarter!" to "Not every DLC will be big like Orsinium" and finally to "Not every quarterly update will be DLC".
Crates were introduced one month ago. They were planned for a while now, since the person hired to introduce them was hired early 2016 and the "sets of mounts" were datamined mid 2015. But there has been only one month for us to show them if it is a business model we support or not. We show our support by buying them, and we show that that's not what we want for the game by, well, not buying them.
So it comes down to what you want for the game, I guess. It will affect me even if I don't buy them, of course, because if the playerbase decides that this is indeed the business model they want and I stay in the game I will suffer the same consequences that the Pro-Crate people will, which is having a game that has the issues that F2P games have.
Taking your cassino or drinking example... I don't care if people do that either, unless it is affecting me. And the playerbase being fine with the change in the business model does affect me, since I also play the game.
Let's hope ZOS will do something unprecedented in the industry of MMOs and put all the money they make with the crates back into the game instead of on the development of more crate seasons (other than the three other seasons we know are coming). But history isn't on their side.
Ok but here's the thing we can agree on, we both like the game right? Is it still fun? For me yes, the crates don't have any effect on my enjoyment. All games should be for the fun. If they add something that has a negative effect on you to the point where the game is no longer enjoyable then it's time to move along.
As of yet we have no idea where the income from the cs is going. I have said as much before. I also stated before that if, big if, they use this extra revenue for the betterment of the game I'm all for it. Update 13 shows promise from the patch notes, I watch the PTS forums to see what's coming. I'm sure the amount of change in there took some cashflow. None of us can say for sure where that money came from. I'm old school, so yes I've seen the progression of games going to this model. Some survive some dont. Just like any non mmorpg. Why did games like Forza become successful and games like PGR only make it to a 3rd edition?
I guess my point is, if you want to make a statement I'm all for it, free speech. And for the record I'm not happy about the crates. Not enough value for my tastes. But I'm not going to say they are going to be the downfall of ESO. I personally have gotten my money's worth. Some people are way to serious, it's a game either enjoy it or dont. But to me its insulting to blame a group of players for a problem that hasn't happened yet.
Yes it is early to tell if ZOS will go the same route as the many companies before them or not (they are following that road so far, but they can take a different turn if ESO is still a long term project for them), but when you hire the same people to do the same thing they did before somewhere else, it is reasonable to expect a similar result.
I think we should keep letting them know what we DON'T want to happen to the game, you know? Because if we wait until it happens, it will be too late then.
The more we accept, the further the limits are pushed. We are the boiling frogs.
I don't want the game to just survive, I want it to thrive. It is my most beloved franchise here. It is a game, but it is one that I want to keep enjoying for years to come.
And I am sorry if it is insulting, but there are sellers only if there are buyers. And yes, the companies only do this kind of thing because we let them get away with it. There is no escaping of it, that goes for every single business. You go as far as your costumers let you.
I have alot invested in ESO as well and want to see it continue. My point is that crates are not going to be the end of the game. So far there is nothing in them that is game changing. Yes I have seen them start to make a cash grab. Motifs, mounts etc. I'm fine with it if they use it to better the game. Imo what will kill the game is lack of vision, development and content.
I've seen the game go from a AAA mmo to AA. The potential is there. What I'm not sure of is the development of the game. 1T was nice brought in new players made it more social. It did not come without problems.
Crafting is abismal and need a 1t makeover. Cyrodiil is still broken after 2 years.
No new content for pvp.
Lag is awful even on console
BoP whoever came up with that should be fired
Lack of lower tier mat farming without a respec or new character
Proc set stacking in pvp, nope make it not crit
Rng, could be fixed with crafting
No search function for shoppers
No storage in housing, seriously short sighted
Many more I could include
Even with all that, the game is still fun
1t was a good start
More people around making it feel alive again
Lots more dropped sets for people leveling
More daily quests, undaunted, Mages fighters guild
What they need to do is continue to make the game interesting. New content for pvp and pve. Less gring. Balance, balance and balance. More story line. Fix crafting. Upgrade their servers, or less people per instance. Now all of this will take some work, and with the new income and maybe added staff, devs writers and artist, it should be possible to right the ship. Believe me I'm well aware of the person they hired and the reputation that came with her. And we all see the effects of that hiring. But again that will not be the downfall of ESO. Not adding anything new content wise and releasing broken content is where it will head downhill. Again just my opinion. They started off strong but have quickly fallen behind, so I will hold judgement for a while. But again imo they are at least attempting to remedy some of this.
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SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »The real problem?
Idiots (yes, this is one case where the word "idiot" is truly applicable) who complain about the methods a company uses to generate income, but then complains when the company lays of staff, doesn't bring out new content, takes too long with maintenance, or are too slow to resolve bugs.
Let me post a new thread complaining about crown crates. Let me protest by placing some snotty remark about the crown crates in my signature. But when it comes to alternate suggestions on how the company can increase its revenue stream, I'm nowhere to be found.
If you don't support or believe in the Crown crates, don't buy them. Simple as that. And leave those be that have no issue with spending some of THEIR (ie, not yours) money on them.
Even League of Legends, the most successful game out there, has recently added gamble boxes of some sort. Why? Simple, because it allows those who are willing, an almost unlimited purchasing capabilities, that otherwise would be impossible to supply, at the pace some consume content. If LoL wasn't able to supply it, when all their revenue comes from microtransactions, how you think Zos is doing. You just can't create enough content to supply the demand of those 'hardcores', it's just not possible.
To those waiting for their cash to be grabbed, not allowing them the possibilty to purchase is such a huge lose. And no, most of them are not 'addicts', they are not skipping dinner becuase they are buying a digital horse, thats so condescending to assume, they do it just because they love the game.
If crates are not for you, just move on people. You are missing a mount, oh the tragedy.Edited by SanTii.92 on January 6, 2017 7:02PMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.1 -
KramUzibra✭✭✭✭I dont think crates are such a bad thing, its the fact you cant spend $50 and get hardly anything that is the real issue.
But then again, I hate any gambling concept in any game as it is a really cheap cope out for making money.
The only crate style system I like is with Dota 2, because you will eventually get the thing you wanted. Unless its an ultra rare...
But I agree with OP, no one should be buying these because it is just a black hole for your money and that isnt right. The fact a single motif style can cost $40 makes me want to puke in my mouth, let alone these crates
Umm....I think people "should" spend their money on what ever they choose to.0 -
summitxho✭✭✭GeneralFlogger wrote: »I swear man, it seems to me that there are people out there who honestly believe that the devs should be our slaves over the next however many years just b/c they paid for the base game (prob after it dropped in price). The devs have to make money to keep the train rolling.
There are many people who like this game enough to spend disposable income on their hobby. Some others on this forum say these guys/girls are the problem, when in reality the ones spending the money are the ones supporting the continuation of the game.
Would you go to work, get paid for your first week then continue to work for free for the next 10 years?
Nobody is asking to have things for free. Quite the opposite, actually. We want to pay for things and get these exact things, directly, with no gamble.
You might notice that many people who oppose the crates are subscribers, long time players and people who are always excited for the next Crown Store showcases. We want to buy things directly, not participate on a RNG system using real money and hope for the best.
I am a subscriber, and I am for the crates, also playing since PS4 launch. Taking a sample size from a forum where the people against crates will be MUCH louder than the people for is a skewed statistic. We all get some of you want to pay for items from the crown store instead of gambling (and you can, just not all which is a happy medium for all parties), that point has been driven home to death, but its not going to happen. I and many others like the excitement of the unknown, its obviously a tactic which creates revenue, its here and it is not destroying the game like so many have suggested. Evidence of this is all the fancy mounts I am seeing around the game now, its busy! Let the crown crates roll, just in time for my subscription renewal and more useless crowns to use up.
Some of you really need to get a hold of yourself and get a good dose of reality "We are part of the problem" lol alright sure, but some here are also part of the problem creating a divisive community. You know what I would appreciate? Living in a free country where I can spend my money how I like without other people telling me how to spend it and accuse me of ruining the game. Get of your high horses already.
I didn't say every subscriber is against the crates, I said the loud people who are against the crates are mostly subscribers.
Also, the number of atronach mounts are no proof of the health of the game, they are proof that many people bought many crates. That's all. Proof of the health of the game would be quality content releases, frequent balance and stability patches and reasonably priced items in the Crown Store for direct purchase. And this would have to go on for several months to be definitive proof of the health of the game. It is too early to tell, they were introduced a month ago, all we can do is compare it to previous games that did the same as ESO with the same people working on the same thing, which doesn't paint a nice picture.
It's fine if you enjoy it, but don't act as if it is the only way to monetize the game, as if it would be all free otherwise. Like if people who are against this kind of business plan want things for free. It is just false.
And yes, you ARE part of the problem, because if there were no players enabling this kind of business plan, the gaming industry wouldn't have gotten where it is today. Better saying, WE are part of the problem, because I was in your place before, thinking it does no harm, that it is okay, that the game won't suffer. "This game will be different", I would say. But it never was.
You spend your money the way you prefer, but there are consequences, and you can close your eyes and pretend you had nothing to do with the consequences, but that is also false. Without buyers, there are no sellers. It is just the reality of it, and I am sorry if you don't like it.
I do not hold any of this against you and other pro-crate people. I won't kick you from groups, throw mudballs at you or make any snarky comments regarding your choices. As I said, I've been on your place before too, so that would be hypocritical of me. But the way you spend your money still have consequences. Your choices have consequences. This is not something you can escape of. This is reality.
About dividing the community... Pro-Crates are as aggressive and rude as Anti-Crate people (note how the tone of your post, telling us to "get off our high horses", is aggressive), so we are all part of this issue in particular (the division of the community). There is a way for ZOS to almost completely eliminate opposition to the crates and solve this issue, however, which is selling the non-themed stuff when the related crate is off-season.
Not to mention, it is obvious by some of the answers from Pro-Crate people (not you) that trolling is more important than the health of the game. It is a shame, really.
No, the amount of people determine the health of the game. I went from playing Craglorn with hardly a sole around to it being packed now, very noticeable difference, its much busier now. Seeing the amount of new mounts through crown crates also tells me they are selling well, more money for the company. Are you going to go down that path again where you try to tell me you can see the future about how the company is going to focus on crown crates and stop developing new content? Did not work last time, will not work this time. All it adds up to be is you are against these rng crates, and you are seeing what you want to see to back up your accusations.
I am not acting as if this is the only way they can monetize the game, where are you getting this from? I am simply pointing out its the direction they took, and its working well so far. You told me to give it a couple months and the game would be dying, I gave it a couple months and the game is booming more than it has in quite some time.
I am part of the problem by buying crown crates? And you wonder why I tell you to get off your high horse? You really need to think this through for a minute and take off the rose colored glasses. No one is part of any problem here in regards to what people purchase from the crown store, the only problem is people such as yourself who seem to blame others for buying a crown crate and making up all sorts of nonsense about how its going to be the end of the game and ruin the industry as we know it. Keep telling me I am part of the problem while you ignore your own divisive attitude about how people spend their money, you are a much bigger part of the problem.
And no, there are no consequences for me, its not going to ruin my gaming experience, its just more people running their mouths out of anger and confusion on something they do not understand. Keep making outlandish statements though, but all it really is to me is drama, you have nothing to back up your points other than your own corrupted opinions.
Pro-crate people (which I am not, I am more pro-freedom of choice person) are just sick and tired of being fed utter BS about these crates.
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