I Think the ESO Community Needs to See This

Ch4mpTW · September 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9A8VJBh_Yc

Woeler · September 2016

The voice in this video is so annoying it makes me want to trashtalk, rage and become so toxic I turn purple.

bebynnag · September 2016

LOL

nimander99 · September 2016

HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST I AM TOXIC YOU TERRIBLE HUMAN BEING I HOPE YOU GET CANCER @Ch4mpTW

Just playin, much love @Ch4mpTW and I don't think you are terrible nor do I want you (or anyone) to get cancer.

Don't moderate me

These video's are always fantastic. They give great insight into gamers and gaming.

clayandaudrey_ESO · September 2016

phairdon · September 2016

nimander99 wrote: »

HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST I AM TOXIC YOU TERRIBLE HUMAN BEING I HOPE YOU GET CANCER @Ch4mpTW
Just playin, much love @Ch4mpTW and I don't think you are terrible nor do I want you (or anyone) to get cancer.

Don't moderate me

These video's are always fantastic. They give great insight into gamers and gaming.

Heard a streamer say exactly that to a player (hope you get cancer), after being killed in Cyrodiil.

Soundwave · September 2016

Hey bruh...that was awesome! The sad part that wont change a damn thing. Players r still going to rage, players r stilling going to place blame. Its the gamer natural, (i don't make mistake, i am perfect, it was someone else.).

Be the bigger man and say hey it was me, i screw up and apologize.

scorpiodog · September 2016

I invest exactly zero of my sense of self worth in the game.

Rohamad_Ali · September 2016

Oh no BRUH ! You just posted a all you can eat troll buffet ! lol

I agree being positive is good thing for everyone but telling people instead of showing people always leading to torches and the pitchforks . Quick , repair the coffee table and take cover !

Armitas · September 2016

Thanks Obama!

Kammakazi · September 2016

Mandragora · September 2016

Toxicity started ZOS by announcing crown store boxes, if they would remove them, you could see how all the players would calm down.
It is calmed now anyway - all the players, who disagreed, left already, so the show can go on...

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · September 2016

Mandragora wrote: »

Toxicity started ZOS by announcing crown store boxes, if they would remove them, you could see how all the players would calm down.
It is calmed now anyway - all the players, who disagreed, left already, so the show can go on...

Khajiit thinks someone has hit the skooma or the hist sap too much.

Toxicity on the forums started long ago. A single drop of venom in the beta became a small pool. Occasionally now people fall in and splash venom everywhere.

Phinix1 · September 2016

Good video. I would say the ENTIRE gaming community needs to see it.

I do however take issue with this bit:

If you're playing in a competitive game, you have to invest some of your self worth into the game.

I believe this is a fundamentally unhealthy and self-destructive misconception that occurs when we unwittingly allow our primal, instinctual urge to gain validation by "the tribe" or to compete over things like survival which actually matter, to become irrationally projected onto the outcomes of an entirely artificial, virtual entertainment medium.

It sets us up for manipulation, exploitation, and disappointment.

Of course the gaming industry is itself largely to blame for this (some companies are MUCH worse than others), as being primarily a for-profit enterprise they do realize the advantages when you have customers that allow their sense of self worth to depend on your product, and do much to encourage this behavior. It gives them a strong bargaining position to extract value from players, in a relationship that has evolved in many ways to parallel that of pusher and addict.

It also has a lot to do with circumstances being universally out of balance at this time in history, between haves and have nots, and people having little in their day to day that reaffirms the unique value of their essential creative being, though all this is a discussion for another time and place.

I do agree with the video, it is largely why people often feel compelled to defend themselves when they fail, leading to shifting of blame, over-compensation and aggression, obsession over comparison, and in extreme cases to all the ugliness we so often see on the net. If people honestly believe their value as a person is seen as diminished by these arbitrary outcomes, they will absolutely feel threatened and behave and act accordingly, and those with less clarity or self control will often react poorly, just as in real life.

It is also why this behavior manifests so disproportionately on the PVP side of things. It isn't that PVP is fundamentally "wrong" somehow. Rather, it is that the PVP community is more inclined to prioritize competition and thus, more likely to allow their self worth to become associated with the outcome of that competition.

It is the same in sports. Certainly, there is such a thing as HEALTHY competition which is essentially recreational, and good sportsmen can shake hands regardless of the outcome maintaining respect for fellow players as human beings FIRST. However, not everyone is such a good sport.

PVE does see this to an extent as well with the obsession over staring at DPS meters (which ironically leads to failure more often than self improvement as people will frequently "stand in the stupid" just to eek out a few more points for the meters at the expense of mechanics and group success). ESO has thankfully done away with much of that by refusing to allow group DPS meters in the API, though authors keep finding ways around these limitations.

The big difference is, people that PVE or RP are typically not associating aspects of their self worth with an external outside of their control and therefor do not so readily set themselves up for the sort of personal disappointments that lead to these imbalanced behavior patterns. They are co-creating a story, engaging their imagination to define the personality of their digital avatar, or just exploring and enjoying interaction with the environment as an entertainment medium of audio-visual "candy."

TL:DR

Treat virtual competition as a GAME, and the outcome as ultimately MEANINGLESS beyond it's overt purpose which is TO HAVE FUN. If you must set these arbitrary "goals" or treat the leaderboard like some judgement of skill or value, of your build or performance or anything really beyond "time invested," then at least maintain perspective.

Treat success and failure as a learning experience. Remind yourself this is not a one-size-fits-all universe. What works well in one situation might not work at all in another.

Learn to see success of others as a positive when it encourages good behavior. Success is not mutually exclusive. "There can be MORE than one!"

Misery loves company, and people troll because they are miserable. Don't pay forward misery by being a part of the reason they are miserable!

"Be excellent to each other," and party on!

Woeler · September 2016

I am unhealthy and selfdestructive and I enjoy it. I think I've never read so much pseudo-psychology in one place.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2016

I'll watch that if the developers watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

The Root of the Problem

Mashille · September 2016

Alucardo · September 2016

Did anyone else load it up, watch 6 seconds, then turn it off and start browsing super mario 64 gameplay for the next 30 minutes?

Nope? Just me? Alright then.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · September 2016

tl;dw

RinaldoGandolphi · September 2016

I see it like this, if you wouldn't say it in real life to someone's face, don't say it online. Be respectful and classy

This behavior only goes on because game companies allow it. It would be simple to set up alarms that trigger on certain words and phrases and action these people that act that way. It's only going on because the company allows it...once word get out that behavior is under no circumstances tolerated and you will be tossed from the establishment for acting that way and the game company adopts a zero tolerance policy and holds gamers accountable for their behavior it stops.

You rage tell someone in game 1st warning is a months ban, you do it again your gone for good. If you can't be classy and have nothing to say but bad things to others then keep your mouth shut or the company will remove you from the premises

You go to any store or restaurant and act that way and they will throw you out. Period. The game wouldn't become a ghost town either, it would be a far better environment. People tend to behave differently when they can be accountable for their actions in some way. Just my 2 cents

Woeler · September 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I see it like this, if you wouldn't say it in real life to someone's face, don't say it online. Be respectful and classy

This behavior only goes on because game companies allow it. It would be simple to set up alarms that trigger on certain words and phrases and action these people that act that way. It's only going on because the company allows it...once word get out that behavior is under no circumstances tolerated and you will be tossed from the establishment for acting that way and the game company adopts a zero tolerance policy and holds gamers accountable for their behavior it stops.

You rage tell someone in game 1st warning is a months ban, you do it again your gone for good. If you can't be classy and have nothing to say but bad things to others then keep your mouth shut or the company will remove you from the premises

You go to any store or restaurant and act that way and they will throw you out. Period. The game wouldn't become a ghost town either, it would be a far better environment. People tend to behave differently when they can be accountable for their actions in some way. Just my 2 cents

And the company will be bankrupt in about 30 days.

Phinix1 · September 2016

Woeler wrote: »

And the company will be bankrupt in about 30 days.

I disagree.

As in the real world, the percent of people that act in a rude and toxic way are a small though extremely vocal minority. The community in this game, mainly due to the Elder Scrolls roots, are mostly helpful, kind, and considerate. I think it would only benefit the company to keep that majority satisfied that this toxic minority would not be tolerated.

If anything, it would give them confidence to continue investment in the game they love.

In the restaurant analogy, if people get the sense that rude, disruptive people are being allowed to lower the quality of service they will take their business elsewhere. People don't bring their family to a place of business expecting they will be subjected to vulgar and inappropriate behavior.

If the restaurant made a clear example of these people, bringing in the cops on any offense and exercising their prerogative to refuse service to anyone, it would instill confidence that it was in fact a professional establishment they might actually continue to do business with.

What is the worse thing that could happen? They alienate the extreme minority demographic of rude, inconsiderate thugs?

Oh darn.

Tib · September 2016

@Phinix Elder Behaviorists Online?

You bring up some real good points. I essentially agree that we should not let our self-esteem depend on our performance or success/failure. In fact, that goes for real life as well as virtual - there really is no difference.

(I'd say the biggest problems related to gaming are so much more about impulses and quick fixes than self-esteem.)

But, I don't think that the gaming environment and competition is what causes problems. It's much more likely that the people who do, they already have problems in real life, or they have a certain vulnerability. This environment is just something that encourages it. Sad but true. So telling them to see this as a "just game" is like telling an alcoholic to "just stop drinking." imo. Speaking of which ...

Woeler wrote: »

I am unhealthy and selfdestructive and I enjoy it. I think I've never read so much pseudo-psychology in one place.

*peers at @Woeler and quickly assesses 'good cognitive capabilities, normal social functions, but too addicted to beer - RESTRAIN HIM, LOCK HIM UP AND DRUG HIM like there's no tomorrow!!!'*

If you enjoy something, then I doubt it's truly self-destructive. Unhealthy, maybe, depending what kind of health we are talking about ^^

Lokey0024 · September 2016

Neeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrdddddd

But seriously children lack empathy. Good luck.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · September 2016

Basically that video said "Don't Blame your team, blame the developers or blame game mechanics."

We as a community are already good at that. So mission accomplished.

Stamina OP.

BenLocoDete · September 2016

First thing that comes to my mind is some people at some office talking to each other:
- Hey we need some ideas to post new videos on our channel...
- IKR, I have a couple ideas, one of them is, this "generic theme with millions of videos alike"
- Sounds good, definitely something we could have a video talking about... make sure to give it the most up-to-date trending name!
- Right, I already have a bunch of "generic comments" to expand upon sure we'll have enough to fill a video with.
- Greeeeeaat.

AuldWolf · January 2017

This thread went about as well as can be expected. The truth always is though that toxicity comes from extremely competitive people, whether that's in a PvE or PvP scenario doesn't really matter. It's the competitive nature that lends a killer instinct to everything that frames everything in a hierarchy, where these people think in terms of superior and inferior rather than equals. Kicking someone for having low CP? Teabagging? It all plays into this hierarchical mentality where someone must be crushed to make another person feel good. It's not restricted to PvP or PvE, as I keep saying, instead it has everything to do with people who're hyper-competitive.

Can you guess the best MMO community I was ever a part of? Uru: Ages Beyond Myst. And that's by far. It was just leagues ahead of everything else. The people were polite, lovely, intelligent, and open minded. There weren't any slurs, prejudices flung around, or hatreds aired. It was just a bunch of people having fun and occasionally cooperating to solve puzzles. It's the same reason why you'll find the least amount of unpleasant people in GW2's jumping puzzles. It's the reason why you'll find nice people when you're solving puzzles in TSW. The less competitive a form of play is, the nicer the people are who play it. From my perspective, it's an observable truth, because I've never once found any evidence that challenges it.

It'd be like thinking that people who play the latest Mario Kart are nastier than people who competitively play League of Legends. We know that's absolutely not true. Yes, there's competition in Mario Kart, but there's also factors to even the playing field for people who fall behind, it keeps it feeling casual and something that people enjoy rather than something they want to win at. It's observable everywhere in life, really. You're going to find far, far more toxic people in, say, an office workspace where a killer instinct is necessary -- you have to ruin careers to move up -- whereas you're very unlikely to find that in, say, an animal conservation.

The fact is? We're bad about competition. We've evolved that way. Chimps are psychotic when it comes to competition and they can get really nasty, though not all animals are like that when they compete. We've picked up the psychotic behavioural traits of chimps when it comes to competition, it brings out the worst in everyone.

And the more competitive it is, the worse it gets. In very competitive scenarios, humans don't play nice. That's human nature.

Like I keep saying, there's a reason League of Legends is more toxic than Mario Kart, there's a reason why Call of Duty is more toxic than Splatoon. The more competitive it is, the worse people will behave. If you don't want to see the worst of humanity, and you don't want to rely on them, you have to design your game to be less competitive. And furthermore, the more you appeal to competitive people, the more it edges out the far, far larger audiences who aren't. Do a web search for people who're afraid to play League of Legends because the community is too toxic, the more ESO adjusts things to be more competitive (which ZOS is absolutely doing), the smaller the size of the casual community will be.

The problem? The casual audience is massive magnitudes larger than the competitive one. I think that most people don't like that ugly, competitive side and prefer to leave it at the wayside and just have fun. The more competitive people who're in a game, the more the casual audience will be alienated. Appealing to competitive people is a suicide pact. It's one that Battleborn made, and died. It's one that Champions Online made, and died. Games like Warhammer Online and Wildstar made that pact from the onset and were dead on arrival.

This is why I worry about ESO. I hope ZOS will be smarter than this in the long run, rather than just another company that's committed financial suicide by appealing to competitive people.

Really, in the end, the only party that can actually fix the toxicity in ESO is ZOS. Reduce the competitive factor, just tone it all the way down. When you do that, the casuals will play in far greater numbers and the competitive people will disappear to look for something more compatible with their toxicity. And the upside for ZOS is more money -- more roleplayers means more whales, more cash shops sales, and a healthier, happier game overall.

So this is really up to ZOS to fix or not fix. You can't deny human nature. There are too many MMOs and online games out there which have proved my point for me, over and over. Sometimes I think these companies need to hire people to look at what other MMOs did -- what they did to succeed, and what they did to fail, and why. I already know, because I've made a study of this. I'm just waiting for MMO developers to catch on... It's been a long wait, and I imagine thanks to greed-fuelled ignorance, it'll be a lot longer.

AuldWolf · January 2017

MrJKurayami wrote: »

I think much of the ESO community is cancerous. Too many people acting like fan boys and sucking on the dev's ***.

I love how people make my point for me. You don't see that you're part of the problem? Look at what you've written, there. Then consider what you are. You and people like you are the problem, you're the source of the toxicity. You're the sort of person who makes the prejudiced slurs, who slings around insults fuelled by sexual frustration.

You're sexually frustrated, angry, and you just want people to crush without all of us 'carebears' around to stop you.

It's just funny to me that the post before mine makes my point. And so do others. A thread like this really delivers on making my point for me.

Ch4mpTW · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

This thread went about as well as can be expected. The truth always is though that toxicity comes from extremely competitive people, whether that's in a PvE or PvP scenario doesn't really matter. It's the competitive nature that lends a killer instinct to everything that frames everything in a hierarchy, where these people think in terms of superior and inferior rather than equals. Kicking someone for having low CP? Teabagging? It all plays into this hierarchical mentality where someone must be crushed to make another person feel good. It's not restricted to PvP or PvE, as I keep saying, instead it has everything to do with people who're hyper-competitive.

Can you guess the best MMO community I was ever a part of? Uru: Ages Beyond Myst. And that's by far. It was just leagues ahead of everything else. The people were polite, lovely, intelligent, and open minded. There weren't any slurs, prejudices flung around, or hatreds aired. It was just a bunch of people having fun and occasionally cooperating to solve puzzles. It's the same reason why you'll find the least amount of unpleasant people in GW2's jumping puzzles. It's the reason why you'll find nice people when you're solving puzzles in TSW. The less competitive a form of play is, the nicer the people are who play it. From my perspective, it's an observable truth, because I've never once found any evidence that challenges it.

It'd be like thinking that people who play the latest Mario Kart are nastier than people who competitively play League of Legends. We know that's absolutely not true. Yes, there's competition in Mario Kart, but there's also factors to even the playing field for people who fall behind, it keeps it feeling casual and something that people enjoy rather than something they want to win at. It's observable everywhere in life, really. You're going to find far, far more toxic people in, say, an office workspace where a killer instinct is necessary -- you have to ruin careers to move up -- whereas you're very unlikely to find that in, say, an animal conservation.

The fact is? We're bad about competition. We've evolved that way. Chimps are psychotic when it comes to competition and they can get really nasty, though not all animals are like that when they compete. We've picked up the psychotic behavioural traits of chimps when it comes to competition, it brings out the worst in everyone.

And the more competitive it is, the worse it gets. In very competitive scenarios, humans don't play nice. That's human nature.

Like I keep saying, there's a reason League of Legends is more toxic than Mario Kart, there's a reason why Call of Duty is more toxic than Splatoon. The more competitive it is, the worse people will behave. If you don't want to see the worst of humanity, and you don't want to rely on them, you have to design your game to be less competitive. And furthermore, the more you appeal to competitive people, the more it edges out the far, far larger audiences who aren't. Do a web search for people who're afraid to play League of Legends because the community is too toxic, the more ESO adjusts things to be more competitive (which ZOS is absolutely doing), the smaller the size of the casual community will be.

The problem? The casual audience is massive magnitudes larger than the competitive one. I think that most people don't like that ugly, competitive side and prefer to leave it at the wayside and just have fun. The more competitive people who're in a game, the more the casual audience will be alienated. Appealing to competitive people is a suicide pact. It's one that Battleborn made, and died. It's one that Champions Online made, and died. Games like Warhammer Online and Wildstar made that pact from the onset and were dead on arrival.

This is why I worry about ESO. I hope ZOS will be smarter than this in the long run, rather than just another company that's committed financial suicide by appealing to competitive people.

Really, in the end, the only party that can actually fix the toxicity in ESO is ZOS. Reduce the competitive factor, just tone it all the way down. When you do that, the casuals will play in far greater numbers and the competitive people will disappear to look for something more compatible with their toxicity. And the upside for ZOS is more money -- more roleplayers means more whales, more cash shops sales, and a healthier, happier game overall.

So this is really up to ZOS to fix or not fix. You can't deny human nature. There are too many MMOs and online games out there which have proved my point for me, over and over. Sometimes I think these companies need to hire people to look at what other MMOs did -- what they did to succeed, and what they did to fail, and why. I already know, because I've made a study of this. I'm just waiting for MMO developers to catch on... It's been a long wait, and I imagine thanks to greed-fuelled ignorance, it'll be a lot longer.

Spot on, comrade. Spot on.

dday3six · January 2017

AuldWolf wrote: »

This thread went about as well as can be expected. The truth always is though that toxicity comes from extremely competitive people, whether that's in a PvE or PvP scenario doesn't really matter. It's the competitive nature that lends a killer instinct to everything that frames everything in a hierarchy, where these people think in terms of superior and inferior rather than equals. Kicking someone for having low CP? Teabagging? It all plays into this hierarchical mentality where someone must be crushed to make another person feel good. It's not restricted to PvP or PvE, as I keep saying, instead it has everything to do with people who're hyper-competitive.

Can you guess the best MMO community I was ever a part of? Uru: Ages Beyond Myst. And that's by far. It was just leagues ahead of everything else. The people were polite, lovely, intelligent, and open minded. There weren't any slurs, prejudices flung around, or hatreds aired. It was just a bunch of people having fun and occasionally cooperating to solve puzzles. It's the same reason why you'll find the least amount of unpleasant people in GW2's jumping puzzles. It's the reason why you'll find nice people when you're solving puzzles in TSW. The less competitive a form of play is, the nicer the people are who play it. From my perspective, it's an observable truth, because I've never once found any evidence that challenges it.

It'd be like thinking that people who play the latest Mario Kart are nastier than people who competitively play League of Legends. We know that's absolutely not true. Yes, there's competition in Mario Kart, but there's also factors to even the playing field for people who fall behind, it keeps it feeling casual and something that people enjoy rather than something they want to win at. It's observable everywhere in life, really. You're going to find far, far more toxic people in, say, an office workspace where a killer instinct is necessary -- you have to ruin careers to move up -- whereas you're very unlikely to find that in, say, an animal conservation.

The fact is? We're bad about competition. We've evolved that way. Chimps are psychotic when it comes to competition and they can get really nasty, though not all animals are like that when they compete. We've picked up the psychotic behavioural traits of chimps when it comes to competition, it brings out the worst in everyone.

And the more competitive it is, the worse it gets. In very competitive scenarios, humans don't play nice. That's human nature.

Like I keep saying, there's a reason League of Legends is more toxic than Mario Kart, there's a reason why Call of Duty is more toxic than Splatoon. The more competitive it is, the worse people will behave. If you don't want to see the worst of humanity, and you don't want to rely on them, you have to design your game to be less competitive. And furthermore, the more you appeal to competitive people, the more it edges out the far, far larger audiences who aren't. Do a web search for people who're afraid to play League of Legends because the community is too toxic, the more ESO adjusts things to be more competitive (which ZOS is absolutely doing), the smaller the size of the casual community will be.

The problem? The casual audience is massive magnitudes larger than the competitive one. I think that most people don't like that ugly, competitive side and prefer to leave it at the wayside and just have fun. The more competitive people who're in a game, the more the casual audience will be alienated. Appealing to competitive people is a suicide pact. It's one that Battleborn made, and died. It's one that Champions Online made, and died. Games like Warhammer Online and Wildstar made that pact from the onset and were dead on arrival.

This is why I worry about ESO. I hope ZOS will be smarter than this in the long run, rather than just another company that's committed financial suicide by appealing to competitive people.

Really, in the end, the only party that can actually fix the toxicity in ESO is ZOS. Reduce the competitive factor, just tone it all the way down. When you do that, the casuals will play in far greater numbers and the competitive people will disappear to look for something more compatible with their toxicity. And the upside for ZOS is more money -- more roleplayers means more whales, more cash shops sales, and a healthier, happier game overall.

So this is really up to ZOS to fix or not fix. You can't deny human nature. There are too many MMOs and online games out there which have proved my point for me, over and over. Sometimes I think these companies need to hire people to look at what other MMOs did -- what they did to succeed, and what they did to fail, and why. I already know, because I've made a study of this. I'm just waiting for MMO developers to catch on... It's been a long wait, and I imagine thanks to greed-fuelled ignorance, it'll be a lot longer.

So you keep giving examples of these multiple succesful games that prove competitiveness leads to toxicity, but do you have any examples of non-competitive multiplayer games which were of equal success?

ZOS_JohanaB · January 2017

This thread is from more than three months ago and as people don't seem to be letting it go we'll be closing it as a necro. Please try not to revive old threads in the future.