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PVP Balance, Lets bring some love and attention to Cyrodiil!!! Zos Make PVP GREAT AGAIN!!!

Lord_Invel
Lord_Invel
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I would like to start this discussion by stating first that my intentions in starting this post is to improve the games performance and give ideas where as to bring about the balance of pvp as a whole. I have read the patch notes and have seen and tested several things in the pts thus far and so far I see that pvp is going downhill. There are many drastic changes that have come about this past year to pvp, make note that every there balance patch there is a shift in the games meta and it always goes from a magick meta to a stam meta. Now in this patch for pvp it is a heavy armor dps proc meta. Through introspection this patch and one tamriel patch have created a toxic pvp environment. Through these two patches it is clearly shown how the skillful aspect of pvp is rapidly diminishing. Right now Cyrodiil is going through probably one of the worst stages it has ever been in since the release of this game. The pvp aspect of this game is now swarmed by people that tank to the extreme and people that apply burst damage to the extreme... this is largely due to the proc sets and the overbuffing of heavy armor. And reading the patch notes for update 13 and testing in the pts, one can see that this meta is not going anywhere at all. Instead of focusing on the problems that ESO streamers have brought to ur (Zenimax) attention, Zenimax has decided to completely disregard the feedback brought to them by their top tier players and greatest advertisers of the game. This does the community a disservice. I would like to address a few ideas that would greatly improve this game and make it desirable for new players and top tier players to be in a competitive environment at the same time.

First off, the nullification of proc sets in pvp zones should be implemented effective immediately. In this patch we have seen proc sets being "nerfed" simply because they wont crit in pvp or pve... that is an unnecessary nerf and only hurts pvers of this game... in pvp even tho proc sets don't crit anymore their overall burst damage is enough to give u and unfair advantage against ur opponent. Proc sets should be able to crit but not usable in pvp zones or duels as they do not pertain to the skillful aspect of a game that is known as player vs player. To much RNG creates for a skilless and toxic pvp environment and can be done away with if proc sets were simply not allowed in pvp zones.

Secondly, Heavy armor is an issue , a great issue especially in this patch. With heavy armor equipped one can tank, dps, heal, and sustain all at the same time. Stam builds get the greatest benefit from these aspects since stam burst is superior to magicka damage/burst in pvp. Also their are so many ways one can sustain with certain class skills that restore resources and the champion tree being highly overpowered in the functional boosts it gives to ones build. In todays Cyrodiil there are builds out there that exist with no legitimate weaknesses. These builds today have sustain, damge, healing, and can tank all at once which creates a great imbalance in the aspect of armor types aka light, medium, and heavy. Right now heavy armor overperforms compared to medium and light because one can dps and creat burst combos with heavy armor in a pvp area and duels. In pve nothing has changed light and medium are still top dps performers and heavy is meant for tanking.... but pvp is a dynamic environment and heavy armor in pvp allows one to focus less time on recovering due to the tanky aspect of the armor type and focus mainly on staying offensive. Heavy armor has been over-buffed and there are multiple heavy armor sets that stack weapon/spell damage that gives heavy armor a window to create instant burst dps just as good as a medium armor build or light armor build can. And with heavy armor equipped having the same damage as a medium and light build but realizing the fact that u are tanky and can heal better at the same time causes for a great imbalance in the pvp aspect of the game. Heavy armor should be about tanking and out-sustaining ur opponent. The best healing and damage should come from light armor and medium armor sets and builds. Heavy armor should not be allowed to dps and heal as well as medium and light armor can plain and simple.

My Third point that can bring about a better pvp environment is reworking counter play. Right now to many abilities including ultimate abilities , u (Zenimax) have systematically removed counter-play from this games ultimate system and skill/combat system. Soul assault , meteor, removing dynamic ult gen, bringing aoe caps to pvp, removing bashable heavy attacks, and the champion system have brought about no counter play in this games pvp system and has removed skillful aspects of the game. It would be nice to bring back soft caps in pvp zones so that way one can actually have build diversity in pvp and have a balanced build of damage sustain and healing that isn't over the top like it is now. Removing battle spirit from pvp and reworking soft caps and dynamic ult gen by actually testing new numbers and playing around with them would be a great solution to how this games pvp aspects will perform in the future. Bringing back an improved version of dynamic ult gen that is balanced and not overpowered would help spread people out and u wouldn't have all the lag that occurs mainly because of cyrodiil zergs. You are able to make changes in pvp without having to affect pve. Bring soft caps into pvp zones only and rework dynamic ult gen and bring back counter-play as I previously listed. It would be a much greater accomplishment if u guys did the hard right thing in pvp rather than the easy wrong things to do in pvp. We need a certain message from u guys to help us understand what u want cyrodiil to be in the future, how do u want cyrodiil to perform. Cause right now all u seem to be doing is advocate changes in total favor of zerg warfare and not allow skillful small scale and solo players to be successful. We need a certain skill aspect in pvp and we need it fast. Making battle grounds without changing these harmful skilless mechanics will make pvp in cyrodiil and battler grounds unenjoyable.

The pvp community wants some skillful gameplay, and the release of these armor sets one tamriel procured has brought about the greatest imbalances in pvp. We need a separate armor system for pvp and pve. Only certain armor sets should be allowed in pvp zones to bring about a semblance of balance. Procs and RNG in pvp zones do not bring about skillful gameplay, perma blocking tanks do not bring about skillful gameplay, the lack of dynamic ult gen and soft caps does not bring about skillful gameplay. Please look into bringing some positive changes to cyrodiil fast making pvp skillful and competitive will make this game even more popular and bring about a really enjoyable community and pvp environment. I wish u all at Zenimax Studios the best of luck with ur future endeavors and I hope u will bring about positive change to cyrodiil and other aspects of the game in general.
Edited by Lord_Invel on January 5, 2017 5:01AM
  • Yiko
    Yiko
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    Enter key
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @Yiko lol ur right I forgot haha
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @Yiko I hope this is much better than before lol
  • Yiko
    Yiko
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    Definitely better haha.

    I agree with you on most points, especially the skillful gameplay & counterplay points.
    Player input in general has never had as little meaning/value as it does now IMO.

    8hzBvEf.png

    This is from a Heavy Attack & a Puncture. Didn't even have to bash, since the target died lol.
  • KisoValley
    KisoValley
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    Yiko wrote: »
    Definitely better haha.

    I agree with you on most points, especially the skillful gameplay & counterplay points.
    Player input in general has never had as little meaning/value as it does now IMO.

    8hzBvEf.png

    This is from a Heavy Attack & a Puncture. Didn't even have to bash, since the target died lol.

    Looks balanced

    maxresdefault.jpg
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    The sad thing is that I feel zenimax will just not even give this discussion a second thought and wont even read it through...they need to start taking pvp advice from their top tier players/streamers and not just listen to random people that advocate for changes that will only benefit them and harm other playstyles.
  • GrigorijMalahevich
    GrigorijMalahevich
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    That is too extreme for a starting point, though, I agree totally.

    Fengrush pointed out that in last ESO ad there was not a word about AvA or PvP - no need to be Sherlock Holmes to see that Zenimax understand that there is a problem with PvP.

    PvP is not profitable :(

    After IC Zeni is (afraid?) to make another PvP dlc, I wounder why.
    PC/EU 800 CP.
    PvP MagSorc.
    Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
    Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
    Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
    Valera Podlechi - Mag Templar AD vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/N0BYq
  • kuro-dono
    kuro-dono
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    who wants to play eso pvp as an new player, when you have zero chance in most cases to fight vast majority of players who have played longer than 1 month since to be honest, vast majority of pvp players are those who been there since near very beginning? and raids do pretty much whatever they want. oh and organized raids avoid another organized raid unless there is lots of ap to be gained.

    its fun to watch one raid just farm all day long players. who have near never chance to wipe that raid. just dying dying dying until it becomes so dull that you go back to your base, and exit and never join in again.

    same works for those solo heroes + gankers, just repeated death on burst builds and any other combination of player skill + sets + broken mechanics.

    good thing about mobs is, they dont animation cancel, exploit, use broken sets, broken abilities or any other mentally abusive methods.

    eso pvp needs servers dedicated for utterly and totally rookie players, and then server where the pros are.

    how to figure out how one is what? death/kill ratio, time to kill rate, dps rate and kite/faceroll rate. from those parametres, we would get rid of these players who abuse mechanics to maintain status where they *** whole day newbies at one resource tower or between 2 keeps. when n00bs/casuals are fully divined from pro:s would eso pvp be able to progress somehow.
    Edited by kuro-dono on January 5, 2017 6:49PM
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @Valera Progib @kuro-dono
    I understand that new players might feel frustrated since they have no pvp experience their first time in cyrodiil... but back then if u were new u at least had a chance if u were skillfull to beat an experienced player. Because back then pvp made sense and the mechanics were very easy to learn and pick up. Zos needs to make pvp environments skillful so that players will look at the top tier players and say to themselves "hey if I learn the game and practice just as hard I can be just as good as this guy." That is what zos should advocate for a skillful pvp friendly environment that supports players that want to better themselves as a gamer. That is the why so many First person shooters are so popular on twitch and this can be the first mmo that, if they make the pvp environment skillful, followed up with battlegrounds and arenas, can actually compete with other competitive games and grow ESO's popularity.
    Edited by Lord_Invel on January 5, 2017 6:48PM
  • Crispen_Longbow
    Crispen_Longbow
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    kuro-dono wrote: »
    who wants to play eso pvp as an new player, when you have zero chance in most cases to fight vast majority of players who have played longer than 1 month since to be honest, vast majority of pvp players are those who been there since near very beginning? and raids do pretty much whatever they want. oh and organized raids avoid another organized raid unless there is lots of ap to be gained.

    its fun to watch one raid just farm all day long players. who have near never chance to wipe that raid. just dying dying dying until it becomes so dull that you go back to your base, and exit and never join in again.

    same works for those solo heroes + gankers, just repeated death on burst builds and any other combination of player skill + sets + broken mechanics.

    good thing about mobs is, they dont animation cancel, exploit, use broken sets, broken abilities or any other mentally abusive methods.

    eso pvp needs servers dedicated for utterly and totally rookie players, and then server where the pros are.

    how to figure out how one is what? death/kill ratio, time to kill rate, dps rate and kite/faceroll rate. from those parametres, we would get rid of these players who abuse mechanics to maintain status where they *** whole day newbies at one resource tower or between 2 keeps. when n00bs/casuals are fully divined from pro:s would eso pvp be able to progress somehow.

    PVP Progression

    Start in below 50 Non Vet Campaigns
    • Learn how to solo.
    • Learn what skills work in PVP which don’t.
    • Learn how to siege, Capture resources, capture keeps.
    • Learn how to group with Pugs, Ask questions, get tips, and see what your competition does.
    • Learn about different class skills and how to counter them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP

    Non CP Campaigns
    • Once your character is passed 50 and has low CP, move to the Non CP campaigns.
    • Further experiment with what PVP Style you like. Solo, Duo, Small Scale, Group, Raid, Zerg Surfing, Ganking, Attack/Defend Objectives, Bombs, Tanks etc.
    • Learn about group tactics and start participating in more organized group play.
    • Comms (TS, Vent, Discord, etc) should be the norm for group play.
    • Seek out more 1vX situations and how to handle yourself outnumbered learn your limitations.
    • Seek specific classes that you are having trouble with and practice different rotations against them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP

    Main Campaigns
    • By this time you should know which playstyle you prefer (Solo, organized group, Zerg surf etc) Seek out others that are like minded to this playstyle and continue to grow this style.
    • Learn about the PVP Guilds/groups that are running on your alliance and on the other factions.
    • Learn to combat these groups and how their dynamic works or how to avoid them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP
    Crispen Longbow - Daggerfall Covenant (DC): NB - Rank:50 (NA/PC) - RIP (Blue VE, Khole, LoM, MO)
    Crispen Longboww - Aldmeri Dominion (AD): NB - Rank:50 (NA/PC) - Crispen's House of Pain RIP (KP, Yellow VE, Omni)
    Crispen Longbow-EP - Ebonheart Pact (EP): NB - Rank:50 (NA/PC) - RIP (Red VE)
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @Crispen_Longbow You are exactly right, that's how zenimax should encourage new pvpers to play the game rather than create skilless pvp environments that do absolutely nothing to help the new player out the only option it gives a new player is to zerg and not be successful as a solo player or small group player. Zenimax should have never removed the skillful aspect of pvp rather their approach to the issue create pvp guides on how to become successful as a skillful competitive pvp player and direct new players.
  • kuro-dono
    kuro-dono
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    kuro-dono wrote: »
    who wants to play eso pvp as an new player, when you have zero chance in most cases to fight vast majority of players who have played longer than 1 month since to be honest, vast majority of pvp players are those who been there since near very beginning? and raids do pretty much whatever they want. oh and organized raids avoid another organized raid unless there is lots of ap to be gained.

    its fun to watch one raid just farm all day long players. who have near never chance to wipe that raid. just dying dying dying until it becomes so dull that you go back to your base, and exit and never join in again.

    same works for those solo heroes + gankers, just repeated death on burst builds and any other combination of player skill + sets + broken mechanics.

    good thing about mobs is, they dont animation cancel, exploit, use broken sets, broken abilities or any other mentally abusive methods.

    eso pvp needs servers dedicated for utterly and totally rookie players, and then server where the pros are.

    how to figure out how one is what? death/kill ratio, time to kill rate, dps rate and kite/faceroll rate. from those parametres, we would get rid of these players who abuse mechanics to maintain status where they *** whole day newbies at one resource tower or between 2 keeps. when n00bs/casuals are fully divined from pro:s would eso pvp be able to progress somehow.

    PVP Progression

    Start in below 50 Non Vet Campaigns
    • Learn how to solo.
    • Learn what skills work in PVP which don’t.
    • Learn how to siege, Capture resources, capture keeps.
    • Learn how to group with Pugs, Ask questions, get tips, and see what your competition does.
    • Learn about different class skills and how to counter them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP

    Non CP Campaigns
    • Once your character is passed 50 and has low CP, move to the Non CP campaigns.
    • Further experiment with what PVP Style you like. Solo, Duo, Small Scale, Group, Raid, Zerg Surfing, Ganking, Attack/Defend Objectives, Bombs, Tanks etc.
    • Learn about group tactics and start participating in more organized group play.
    • Comms (TS, Vent, Discord, etc) should be the norm for group play.
    • Seek out more 1vX situations and how to handle yourself outnumbered learn your limitations.
    • Seek specific classes that you are having trouble with and practice different rotations against them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP

    Main Campaigns
    • By this time you should know which playstyle you prefer (Solo, organized group, Zerg surf etc) Seek out others that are like minded to this playstyle and continue to grow this style.
    • Learn about the PVP Guilds/groups that are running on your alliance and on the other factions.
    • Learn to combat these groups and how their dynamic works or how to avoid them.
    • Have Fun and Enjoy PVP

    theoricly, thats how its meant to be working atm, SADLY the fact is quite opposite. I am experienced player, but i dont play like pro, but oh how i laugh when nasty enemy whispers to me how i cheat when i bashed him and he was trying to faceroll me with his ultimatebadass jesus beam. Azura star pc eu its so obvious to see whats going on. all the n00bs getting farmed by different factions pro raids, and no matter how i try educate zone chat they wont learn a thing in situation where they died in 1-2 second when aoe choo choo came and run over or ganker with instant 2-5 ability/skill/heavy attack compination *** n00blets left and right. ALSO. teamspeak doesnt save those n00bs>

    player 1"Hey i saw something!"
    player 2 "oh where?!?!?"
    player 3 "ohhhhhhh SPLATS" player 3 dead
    player 4 "oh no! Joe the average is dead!" dies at same second.
    player 1 "WE NEED TO DO SOME...-" player 1 is dead.
    player 2 "mommy! this is not fun!" dies.

    how often i see proper gank blade, who has lots of time behind takes down groups of 10 on his own so easily that its near comical. and in most situations most ppl dont get even chance to say hello to him with their weapons/skills.

    For eso pvp to survive, all the casuals/n00bs need servers dedicated for them and no pro/stronk faceroller/raids are allowed in.

    and i state it again> from these parameters - death/kill ratio, time to kill rate, dps rate and kite/faceroll rate zenimax will manage to figure out who is what, and the moment you pass the pro level parameter requirement, you are out of the n00bland FOREVER. oh. and its accountwide.
    Edited by kuro-dono on January 6, 2017 10:34AM
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @kuro-dono Ok I understand that new players get frustrated by elite players 1vxing them and that is understandable. But now, how do u teach them to pvp? lol You cant right now... to be successful at pvp the only thing u can tell them is get enough cp, and put on tremorscale and viper with fury lmao. Back then when I taught new players how to play there was a learning curve and that excited new players to the point where they would say to me "I just need to practice more , and once I practice and learn from the game, I will compete with you" That is what they used to say to me back then. Now when I offer to teach people how to play the game the only response I get is the following "Invel ur a hacker that's all I can see from here," or " I don't need lessons from a pug get gud" (when I 1v4ed them twice lmao) This is the pvp environment Zenimax has created ... now no body in this game wants to learn and become better at pvp. Back then people loved dueling and it was skillful.... ironic how when one tamreil got released dueling completely died due to imbalance of armor set, poisons, cp , and procs. Zenimax needs to create a pvp environment where people say to themselves "Hey, if I learn the game and practice the mechanics and manage my resources I can be just as good as this guy and one day compete with the best." That is what I want zenimax to recreate... because that is how the game was back then and how it should be. You can make changes in PVP without affecting PVE. All it takes is some discussion with the PvP community and collaboration.
    Edited by Lord_Invel on January 6, 2017 6:49PM
  • LegacyDM
    LegacyDM
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    Pvp would be far more effective if server performance was better...
    Legacy of Kain
    Vicious Carnage
    ¥ampire Lord of the South
  • Lord_Invel
    Lord_Invel
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    @LegacyDM Not only that, PVP would be far more effective and enjoyable if there wasn't so much RNG involved and if it was competitive... right now its not. If they balance pvp to be a skillful and competitive environment first, they can then put all their resources into fixing server performance.
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