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Are the changes to Sword N Shield enough to make it a viable Dps weapon?

Anti_Virus
Anti_Virus
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I always wanted to run a Sword N shield Stam DK tank/dps and I was wondering if the changes to reverb/power bash are enough to make sword n board dps in heavy viable.

if anyone playing on the PTS can let me know I would appreciate that.
Edited by Anti_Virus on December 27, 2016 2:19PM
Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • dday3six
    dday3six
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    I'll be speaking about group content PVE and general PVP. Solo questing outside of Maelstrom Arena you can run just about anything to varying degrees of success.

    You'll have increased DPS output as a Tank in PVE because of Heavy Armor's Wraith passive. The changes to Shield Bash actually hurts PVP SnB Stamina builds since they used Reverb as a reliable CC that freed up Magicka for other utility.

    In PVE, You'll not be able to be a strict DPS. In Heavy Armor + SnB you're set up as a Tank. Without continual damage dealt to you the HA Wraith passive is useless. Shield Bash has a long wind up, and even with increased damage it will not out DPS Light/Heavy Attack > Skill > Bash weaves.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.
    Edited by Autolycus on April 28, 2016 5:13PM
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    As a long-time tank in ESO, I have to respectfully disagree. Pierce Armor is invaluable for tanks; there is no other skill that accomplishes the same things that it does with only a single cast. I prefer my taunts to cost stamina, and compared to Inner Fire (or whatever morph you choose) it's significantly cheaper, and therefore easier to sustain. I use Inner Fire as little as possible. Each target I taunt with it is that much more difficult for my dps to kill. Tank builds vary to a large degree I've found, so there is no doubt in my mind that some people will disagree with me. But I find that Inner Fire is far too much of a magicka dump. Even on a magicka tank build with a lot of reduced magicka cost, it is extremely inefficient.

    Until the DB update, it's always been a very attractive skill for damage-oriented 1H&S builds. In pvp this is not a problem whatsoever, but in pve the issues are obvious and threaten the group's cohesion, and therefore their chance at success as well. The damage increase to Bash is a much-needed change to allow for the type of build diversity that ZOS strives for in ESO.
    Edited by Autolycus on April 28, 2016 6:20PM
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    dday3six wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    One is not better than the other. Tanks in PVE use both to have options. Removing Taunt from Puncture would pretty much screw Tanks. Strictly speaking with SnB there is no way to restore Magicka built in. Heavy Attacks restore Stamina. Both Puncture and blocking use Stamina, and both feed into tanking. Breaking that loop by removing Taunt from Puncture so that the only taunt costs Magicka breaks tanking with SnB.

    Should Resto be a DPS weapon? If SnB is going to be why not? End of the day Resto is for support/healing and SnB is for tanking.

    you do know that one morph of the undaunted taunt cost stamina right?

    also Sword N Shield shouldn't JUST be for tanking for say that's why we have heavy armor.

    in ancient times warriors fought in heavy armor for protection(tank) and used a sword( for killing people) in one hand and shield in the hand(to block arrows and strikes) they didn't use this weapon set to just block hits and be a tank.

    Tanks in todays modern warfare are heavily armored vehicles WITH a massive cannon on the front to deal dmg to other vehicles and infanty.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Suru
    Suru
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    I also disagree, each taunt is situational. Puncture being really strong for being able to increase your DPS's damage by removing resist. I do realize the undaunted one is strong, but it should not be the only taunt for a tank to use. Say you went either morph and you ran out resources for that taunt, you would just be hindered especially under unique circumstances. Saying the undaunted taunt should be the only taunt by inferring that the taunt component from puncture should be removed is just plain ignorant. You obviously don't tank and don't realize the negative implications of your statements if it hypothetically did happen.

    Having a stamina and magika taunt is invaluable.
    dday3six wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    One is not better than the other. Tanks in PVE use both to have options. Removing Taunt from Puncture would pretty much screw Tanks. Strictly speaking with SnB there is no way to restore Magicka built in. Heavy Attacks restore Stamina. Both Puncture and blocking use Stamina, and both feed into tanking. Breaking that loop by removing Taunt from Puncture so that the only taunt costs Magicka breaks tanking with SnB.

    Should Resto be a DPS weapon? If SnB is going to be why not? End of the day Resto is for support/healing and SnB is for tanking.

    you do know that one morph of the undaunted taunt cost stamina right?

    also Sword N Shield shouldn't JUST be for tanking for say that's why we have heavy armor.

    in ancient times warriors fought in heavy armor for protection(tank) and used a sword( for killing people) in one hand and shield in the hand(to block arrows and strikes) they didn't use this weapon set to just block hits and be a tank.

    Tanks in todays modern warfare are heavily armored vehicles WITH a massive cannon on the front to deal dmg to other vehicles and infanty.

    Tamriel is not in the time of modern warfare, we have bows, swords and spells. Not tanks and heavy armored vehicles.


    Suru
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Suru wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    I also disagree, each taunt is situational. Puncture being really strong for being able to increase your DPS's damage by removing resist. I do realize the undaunted one is strong, but it should not be the only taunt for a tank to use. Say you went either morph and you ran out resources for that taunt, you would just be hindered especially under unique circumstances. Saying the undaunted taunt should be the only taunt by inferring that the taunt component from puncture should be removed is just plain ignorant. You obviously don't tank and don't realize the negative implications of your statements if it hypothetically did happen.

    Having a stamina and magika taunt is invaluable.
    dday3six wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    One is not better than the other. Tanks in PVE use both to have options. Removing Taunt from Puncture would pretty much screw Tanks. Strictly speaking with SnB there is no way to restore Magicka built in. Heavy Attacks restore Stamina. Both Puncture and blocking use Stamina, and both feed into tanking. Breaking that loop by removing Taunt from Puncture so that the only taunt costs Magicka breaks tanking with SnB.

    Should Resto be a DPS weapon? If SnB is going to be why not? End of the day Resto is for support/healing and SnB is for tanking.

    you do know that one morph of the undaunted taunt cost stamina right?

    also Sword N Shield shouldn't JUST be for tanking for say that's why we have heavy armor.

    in ancient times warriors fought in heavy armor for protection(tank) and used a sword( for killing people) in one hand and shield in the hand(to block arrows and strikes) they didn't use this weapon set to just block hits and be a tank.

    Tanks in todays modern warfare are heavily armored vehicles WITH a massive cannon on the front to deal dmg to other vehicles and infanty.

    Tamriel is not in the time of modern warfare, we have bows, swords and spells. Not tanks and heavy armored vehicles.

    His point is just that through all times, all warfare, being heavily armored didn't mean exclusively defense. He's just saying the sword and board doesn't have to be only defense.
    Edited by Waffennacht on April 28, 2016 10:45PM
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1000+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    As a long-time tank in ESO, I have to respectfully disagree. Pierce Armor is invaluable for tanks; there is no other skill that accomplishes the same things that it does with only a single cast. I prefer my taunts to cost stamina, and compared to Inner Fire (or whatever morph you choose) it's significantly cheaper, and therefore easier to sustain. I use Inner Fire as little as possible. Each target I taunt with it is that much more difficult for my dps to kill. Tank builds vary to a large degree I've found, so there is no doubt in my mind that some people will disagree with me. But I find that Inner Fire is far too much of a magicka dump. Even on a magicka tank build with a lot of reduced magicka cost, it is extremely inefficient.

    Until the DB update, it's always been a very attractive skill for damage-oriented 1H&S builds. In pvp this is not a problem whatsoever, but in pve the issues are obvious and threaten the group's cohesion, and therefore their chance at success as well. The damage increase to Bash is a much-needed change to allow for the type of build diversity that ZOS strives for in ESO.

    Welp. I agree to an extent. However Think outside the box here, If this skill didn't have a taunt you could still use this skill in a dps rotation against bosses.

    Think about it, The undaunted taunt (which costs magic or Stam) can be used at range safely to aggro the boss for your team.

    My real concern is with solo play it urks me when fighting a world boss or powetful mob in pve that will aggro to me when I don't want aggro simply because I wanted to use the skill as a dps skill.
    Puncture can be a great dps skill (like suprise attack) and would benefit pve builds that don't spec for tanking but still sword and shield as a dps weapon.

    I speak from other MMO perspective so my opinions might be silly. :sweat:
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • dday3six
    dday3six
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    dday3six wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    One is not better than the other. Tanks in PVE use both to have options. Removing Taunt from Puncture would pretty much screw Tanks. Strictly speaking with SnB there is no way to restore Magicka built in. Heavy Attacks restore Stamina. Both Puncture and blocking use Stamina, and both feed into tanking. Breaking that loop by removing Taunt from Puncture so that the only taunt costs Magicka breaks tanking with SnB.

    Should Resto be a DPS weapon? If SnB is going to be why not? End of the day Resto is for support/healing and SnB is for tanking.

    you do know that one morph of the undaunted taunt cost stamina right?

    also Sword N Shield shouldn't JUST be for tanking for say that's why we have heavy armor.

    in ancient times warriors fought in heavy armor for protection(tank) and used a sword( for killing people) in one hand and shield in the hand(to block arrows and strikes) they didn't use this weapon set to just block hits and be a tank.

    Tanks in todays modern warfare are heavily armored vehicles WITH a massive cannon on the front to deal dmg to other vehicles and infanty.

    You're right. I overlooked that. Most players either take the Magicka morph, or leave it un-morphed, because the Stamina morph costs around 2.7x as more and is crippling on sustain if needed to be used every 15s. Inner Fire is a rank 3 Undaunted skill. The first dungeon in the game is encountered at lvl10 iirc. How do you suggest a budding tank have their Undaunted leveled to 3 by lvl10?

    This is a video game, not real life. Most of the armor and weaponry in the game would not be viable in real world applications. It's fantasy flair and made for aesthetic appeal. If you want to DPS with SnB counter to it's developer intended role, just say that. Don't try to bring IRL not appliable BS to a video game. For the record as well full heavy plate armor and swords were more rare then you seem to believe. They were expensive and the average fighter was poor. The resources and even the knowledge to make them were scare also. Spears, bows, and leather armor were much more commonplace for the typical combatant.

    It's about trading for the sake of balance. SnB gets greater defensive capabilities in trade for less damage output. Tank in relation to video games is board. It could mean ability to sustain damage, but its meaning for a role is to control aggro.
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    dday3six wrote: »
    dday3six wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    One is not better than the other. Tanks in PVE use both to have options. Removing Taunt from Puncture would pretty much screw Tanks. Strictly speaking with SnB there is no way to restore Magicka built in. Heavy Attacks restore Stamina. Both Puncture and blocking use Stamina, and both feed into tanking. Breaking that loop by removing Taunt from Puncture so that the only taunt costs Magicka breaks tanking with SnB.

    Should Resto be a DPS weapon? If SnB is going to be why not? End of the day Resto is for support/healing and SnB is for tanking.

    you do know that one morph of the undaunted taunt cost stamina right?

    also Sword N Shield shouldn't JUST be for tanking for say that's why we have heavy armor.

    in ancient times warriors fought in heavy armor for protection(tank) and used a sword( for killing people) in one hand and shield in the hand(to block arrows and strikes) they didn't use this weapon set to just block hits and be a tank.

    Tanks in todays modern warfare are heavily armored vehicles WITH a massive cannon on the front to deal dmg to other vehicles and infanty.

    You're right. I overlooked that. Most players either take the Magicka morph, or leave it un-morphed, because the Stamina morph costs around 2.7x as more and is crippling on sustain if needed to be used every 15s. Inner Fire is a rank 3 Undaunted skill. The first dungeon in the game is encountered at lvl10 iirc. How do you suggest a budding tank have their Undaunted leveled to 3 by lvl10?

    This is a video game, not real life. Most of the armor and weaponry in the game would not be viable in real world applications. It's fantasy flair and made for aesthetic appeal. If you want to DPS with SnB counter to it's developer intended role, just say that. Don't try to bring IRL not appliable BS to a video game. For the record as well full heavy plate armor and swords were more rare then you seem to believe. They were expensive and the average fighter was poor. The resources and even the knowledge to make them were scare also. Spears, bows, and leather armor were much more commonplace for the typical combatant.

    It's about trading for the sake of balance. SnB gets greater defensive capabilities in trade for less damage output. Tank in relation to video games is board. It could mean ability to sustain damage, but its meaning for a role is to control aggro.

    Apologies for the realistic arguement I dont think it was needed but Its there for others that will say "sword and shield is for tanking"

    You are right about SnB defensive power though, however I beleive that a weapon skill line should focus on dealing dmg and not be defensive(armor skilll lines should focus on that). You remeber tanky medium armor DK? Light armor tanky DKs? All possible because of the mitigation that sword and shield provides.

    I think the "Tank" role in fantasy games are ALWAYS depicted as a heavy armor warrior that blocks all day

    The Tanks role- gets aggro from bosses and lethal mobs away from your squishy team since you can take a beating.

    But if you look at it this way, magic sorcerers are "Tanks" they can take a beating like one except deal high dmg too, Medium armor builds are indirect "Tanks" since they avoid dmg and can survive long (although not very practical) so why can't SnB be a dps weapon skill line?

    My (ridiculous) Thoughts
    -ShadowStarKing
    Edited by Anti_Virus on April 28, 2016 11:19PM
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Wolfchild07
    Wolfchild07
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    You don't get Inner Fire straight away. Removing taunt from Puncture would be a bad move, especially for new players/characters. You need it to tank dungeons at low level or everyone will wipe constantly.
    *Changes into a werewolf* Arrrrrrroooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! *Changes back* Ah, crap!
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    You don't get Inner Fire straight away. Removing taunt from Puncture would be a bad move, especially for new players/characters. You need it to tank dungeons at low level or everyone will wipe constantly.

    Yeah I realized that. I guess we will see how it goes with the changes currently.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    "My real concern is with solo play it urks me when fighting a world boss or powetful mob in pve that will aggro to me when I don't want aggro simply because I wanted to use the skill as a dps skill."

    I hate to break it to you but picking skills and weapons based on what you want them to do rather than what they are actually designed to do will always leave you frustrated with the results. Sword and Shield offers greater armor, for balance purposes that means that it will always be a bit behind other weapons when it comes to damage. It would be interesting if there was an option to sacrifice a shields armor for spikes and more damage.
    Edited by Toc de Malsvi on May 2, 2016 5:09AM
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  • Bulljoker
    Bulljoker
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    WE NEED DUAL SHIELD DPS SPEC :D
    PC EU
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  • brtomkin
    brtomkin
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    This discussion is interesting to me since my stamsorc uses 1h and shield. I have tried both puncture and low slash in PvP and pve. I almost like low slash better but I don't see anyone talking about it - is there any reason for this other than the higher cost?
    PS4 NA: Pickmans__Model, CP 1000+
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Agreed with most of what @dday3six said. It is my belief (through no practical applications just yet, purely theorycrafting) that a 1H&S dps build is potentially viable in a pure dps setup now. Heavy armor doesn't really afford this option to you, but you can do a tank/dps hybrid fairly easily. A 7/7 medium with sets that correspond to a "traditional" stam dps setup (i.e. hundings, night mother, mephala, leki, maelstrom weapons, etc.) appears to be doable at this point. The changes to bash make it about as effective as Pierce Armor from a damage perspective, but it doesn't have the taunt component, which is very important for a dps. The main reason we couldn't do a 1H&S dps reliably before is because the bread&butter damage skill had a taunt component to it. With that restriction gone, it opens up the door for 1H&S dps.

    As far as solo questing and exploration goes, there's nothing stopping you. The changes to 1H&S and Heavy Armor also opens the door for many interesting pvp setups. I won't go so far as to suggest a 1H&S dps build for trials yet (need to build and test first), but for 4mans, as long as you aren't using Pierce Armor on enemies if you have another tank, a dps setup seems totally fine imho.

    I think puncture and the morphs should have the taunt component removed, I mean the undaunted one IMO is superior because it has range and its a magic dump or it can cost stamina,

    with the taunt component removed sword and shield builds can just puncture and power bash in conjunction with each other very effectively.

    As a long-time tank in ESO, I have to respectfully disagree. Pierce Armor is invaluable for tanks; there is no other skill that accomplishes the same things that it does with only a single cast. I prefer my taunts to cost stamina, and compared to Inner Fire (or whatever morph you choose) it's significantly cheaper, and therefore easier to sustain. I use Inner Fire as little as possible. Each target I taunt with it is that much more difficult for my dps to kill. Tank builds vary to a large degree I've found, so there is no doubt in my mind that some people will disagree with me. But I find that Inner Fire is far too much of a magicka dump. Even on a magicka tank build with a lot of reduced magicka cost, it is extremely inefficient.

    Until the DB update, it's always been a very attractive skill for damage-oriented 1H&S builds. In pvp this is not a problem whatsoever, but in pve the issues are obvious and threaten the group's cohesion, and therefore their chance at success as well. The damage increase to Bash is a much-needed change to allow for the type of build diversity that ZOS strives for in ESO.

    Welp. I agree to an extent. However Think outside the box here, If this skill didn't have a taunt you could still use this skill in a dps rotation against bosses.

    Think about it, The undaunted taunt (which costs magic or Stam) can be used at range safely to aggro the boss for your team.

    My real concern is with solo play it urks me when fighting a world boss or powetful mob in pve that will aggro to me when I don't want aggro simply because I wanted to use the skill as a dps skill.
    Puncture can be a great dps skill (like suprise attack) and would benefit pve builds that don't spec for tanking but still sword and shield as a dps weapon.

    I speak from other MMO perspective so my opinions might be silly. :sweat:

    What you've described here is precisely why I gave the response that I did. The fact that Power Bash is now on par damage-wise relative to Pierce Armor without the taunt component is what makes dps as a 1H&S possible now. Ranged taunts should be avoided unless a taunt is necessary but you cannot make it to the boss. Depending on the class, this is easier for some than others. Nonetheless, your group suffers when you don't taunt with Pierce. Inner Fire is a fall-back plan, not a go-to taunt to be used on everything you see.
  • CaptainPocky
    CaptainPocky
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    No sadly. 1H&S will still be easily outclassed in terms of pure DPS by any other stamina tree. This is mostly due to the lack of good DPS passives.
  • MrJKurayami
    I get the mmo explanation. But in reality plate armor is not that heavy, not like you think it is. Plate , swords , and shields were the height of combat. Even still, I'd like a greek / roman sword and shield style of fighting purely for dpsing. I always got quite a powerful feeling from the s&b combat in previous TES games.
  • DragonBound
    DragonBound
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    Where can I see these future changes?
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    I get the mmo explanation. But in reality plate armor is not that heavy, not like you think it is. Plate , swords , and shields were the height of combat. Even still, I'd like a greek / roman sword and shield style of fighting purely for dpsing. I always got quite a powerful feeling from the s&b combat in previous TES games.

    Same in other MMOs Sword n Shield combat was viable, not the best but it worked I wish that was the case here as well but :neutral:
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    CosmicSoul wrote: »
    Where can I see these future changes?

    There was a change to one of the morphs of bash, it increased the base dmg and gave an addtional 25% dmg of you blocked an attack. It was an interesting change but the skill costs to much to use.

    Shame although Sword and shield has dmg passives and skills it's still relegated to be( by the community) as a tank weapon.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    CosmicSoul wrote: »
    Where can I see these future changes?

    There was a change to one of the morphs of bash, it increased the base dmg and gave an addtional 25% dmg of you blocked an attack. It was an interesting change but the skill costs to much to use.

    Shame although Sword and shield has dmg passives and skills it's still relegated to be( by the community) as a tank weapon.

    The trick with S/B is not dmg, but CC. It is a utility wpn for PvP... and have one of the best ultis available for melee.

    Temps and DKs (both stam and magicka) make a good use of it.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
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  • Jamini
    Jamini
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    Bulljoker wrote: »
    WE NEED DUAL SHIELD DPS SPEC :D



    You are welcome.
    "Adapt. or Die."
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    CosmicSoul wrote: »
    Where can I see these future changes?

    There was a change to one of the morphs of bash, it increased the base dmg and gave an addtional 25% dmg of you blocked an attack. It was an interesting change but the skill costs to much to use.

    Shame although Sword and shield has dmg passives and skills it's still relegated to be( by the community) as a tank weapon.

    The trick with S/B is not dmg, but CC. It is a utility wpn for PvP... and have one of the best ultis available for melee.

    Temps and DKs (both stam and magicka) make a good use of it.

    Yep. LA ransack bash combo pulls some decent dps.
    Let the sun melt your body so that you may flow through the rivers of time.
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