WhiteMage wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

They should just increase the XP gain there. This helps the newer players who choose that campaign because they don't want to deal with the CP difference in other campaigns. A populated Azura's is already a lot of AP waiting to be made. If you doubled it I don't think people would like what it would turn into.

Was about to suggest the same thing.

Double the XP gains in Azura's, helping people to play CP catch up.

You mean, lure in MORE PvEers for me to 1vX? Yes please!

Manoekin wrote: »

ChrisXO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Azuras star needs to be closed so the devs can focus on working on abilities in only one environment.

That CP gap for new players is harsh though.

Give every player in PvP max CP. Create a single baseline for balancing and remove a barrier for new players.

It would be far better to just remove CP entirely. CP, while not the chief cause of cancer, enables it far more than anything else (until Wrobel graced us with proc sets. Remember when a maluplar was the worst thing you could be?) The only other way to balance a 25% increase to stats is to drop base stats down the hole in an outhouse. I suppose that is doable, but...

I love buffs. Everyone loves buffs. But it is time for the Age of Nerfs, because too many things are just too darn OP. Like burst, healing/damage.

As Joy said when CP came out, part of our base stats were taken and put into CP system. Non-CP is not the same game players want back.

Now I'd love to make an intelligent counter-argument to that, but the introduction of CP was long before I started playing ESO so I know very little about the actions and motivations of the devs from that time period. Do you know roughly what patch that was so I can comb through the natch potes of that era?

I'm not one to be satisfied by that however, so here is my ill-informed reply:

Frankly I can't imagine what stats had some oomph taken out of them because stat bloat (aka power creep) seems to have given back what was allegedly removed in spades. With my CP (all the CPs!) I don't have resource management issues even without the use of any potions or heavy attacks or otherwise regenerative actions or skills, I have solid damage, and beyond sufficient heals to solo vet dungeon with ease (most of them). This is all in my PvP spec spamming jabs. I play in azuras and I feel like I am coming close to the limit of what is reasonable in terms of balance with my characters' capabilities. Luckily, there is little room to improve my gear outside of golding out the odd belt or glove. That's with no CP. It doesn't make much difference when I come across a new player whether I have CP or not, but a 25% increase to all relevant stats puts me (and anyone at the CP cap) that much further above a new player in terms of capability. The power creep in that is just unreal.

Echoing certain above posters, CP is a crutch. It'd be better for overall balance if it just goes away.

It was 1.6, but you won't find it in any patchnotes. Of course not because ZoS likes to hide mechanical changes to the game because they know it will *** off players. But if you have the patience to wade through the many many posts/feedback from the community, you will find that pretty much everything from heavy attack resource return, cost reduction, critical chance, etc. was taken away from the base game and put into the champion system. Not to mention the actual radical changes they made to the system such as nerfing health, streamlining weapon/spell damage, and tossing dynamic ultimate gain in the trash. And then there are the subsequent changes to game mechanic such as no stam return while blocking, Battlespirit, and increased dodge roll costs that were instituted precisely because of the CP system that somehow still exists in the no CP campaign.

If it was anything as close to 1.5 as some people make it out to be, these campaign would be pop-locked all the time and we would see a huge influx of players who quit the game after 1.5 in frustration.

It's fine for you to prefer AZ, but part of the reason I do not play AZ aside from it's not 1.5 is that I dislike the condescension saying things like CP is a crutch. CP is a different system, but just because you think it is easier does not automatically make it so. That I have to compete with others who can with CP push builds in very extreme directions - players such as Sribes who can generate a tremendous amount of burst damage or tanks such as Hanzo - is most certainly a challenge. It maybe different and not your cup of tea, but I get sick and tired of hearing how those of us who do not play AZ are somehow "wrong" in our preferences and playing "easy mode." No thank you.

I logged onto Azura's for the first time, I dont think you can say it's more difficult. Maybe Sorc translates better than other classes, but I was getting ridiculous solo AP and killing absurd amounts of people.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If it was anything as close to 1.5 as some people make it out to be, these campaign would be pop-locked all the time and we would see a huge influx of players who quit the game after 1.5 in frustration.

There's a lot to disagree with here, but... I just can't pinpoint anything without splitting off into different scenarios. I'll save the WoT for below.

Joy_Division wrote: »

.
It's fine for you to prefer AZ, but part of the reason I do not play AZ aside from it's not 1.5 is that I dislike the condescension saying things like CP is a crutch. CP is a different system, but just because you think it is easier does not automatically make it so. That I have to compete with others who can with CP push builds in very extreme directions - players such as Sribes who can generate a tremendous amount of burst damage or tanks such as Hanzo - is most certainly a challenge. It maybe different and not your cup of tea, but I get sick and tired of hearing how those of us who do not play AZ are somehow "wrong" in our preferences and playing "easy mode." No thank you.

In all fairness, it's actually pretty silly to make decisions about where not to play based on condescension of forum goers, because you'll find almost none of that from players in game, unless, of course, you hop in azuras and disparage people who play without CP. The silly reasons people give for never trying azuras, let alone PvP in general (especially PvP in general), like "the community is so toxic" are frankly absurd. The carebears who say this (I'm using this word as a descriptor that is less general than "people," hopefully to avoid future confusion due to being vague) are almost certainly forum goers themselves who based their opinions on vocal crazies, like myself, in the forums who also PvP, instead of never actually playing themselves. That is just so wrong. If forum goers are the minority of players, the loud obnoxious ones are an impossible minority of players in the game. It's like tasting a bad batch of cookies and swearing off them for good, just from that. The last time a "toxic" conversation happened in zone was when I was sleep-deprived and the guy arguing with me was drunk, but we worked it out.

So just... don't worry about it! Now on to the second sentence. Hopefully this'll be shorter lol EDIT: it isn't.

CP is not a "different system". Is it a series of modifiers on top of the base character... stats or something. Some of these modifiers make things easier. For example, resource management becomes less of an issue with green CP, and there is one modifier that allows you to wear less impenetrable gear. TBH, I think that is the extent of the "easier" portion of CP, but whether or not impenetrable should be the be-all-end-all PvP trait is a different discussion. The blue CP and the rest of the red CP do make it "different." The balance between attacking power and defense, relative to each other, shifts because of this. It's only bad when stacking leads to extreme values and performance compared to other players, which these CP happen to facilitate. The words "easier" or "unbalancing" are not enough to describe the full effects and repercussions of the CP system and how it interacts with the base game, as currently implemented. It's such a huge system... exploring and enumerating it's effects and implications would take an essay unto itself. EDIT: the post above mine hit the nail on the head

As for the extreme situations like sribes and hanzo or whomever, I don't favor situations where I'm stuck in a rut, where my individual contribution doesn't matter; if I can get instagibbed but not instagib back, or if I cannot kill someone no matter how hard I try, even with how far I have pushed my build... not my thing. I'd go so far as to say they are the result of careful, calculating exploitations of a flawed system who lay bare all the imbalances in the game, and in no small part due to their CP. It is easiest to wash my hands of the system, and while it is not the only way to fix it, it's the only method available to a player.

In addition to all said above, the gap becomes even wider between new and old players in a CP environment. It's less easy for you as it is impossible for new players. In azuras you don't have to deal with that. Strangely though, it seems to me new players in azuras tend to move to TF eventually. Like it's some sort of graduation to go from no CP to CP... it's so irrational, but I actually remember when I thought the same way. I don't quite remember what changed my mind, but I remember when.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I find it amusing that you have never played 1.5 and are trying to disagree with my preferences. You do not need to tell me how the CP system works. I'm well aware. It's like you are trying to convince me that there is something about it that I'm not seeing which if I did would make me realize I am wrong and you are right.

It's not silly not to want to associate with condescension. It's not just on the forums. The mentality is there even if it's not in your face every night in AZ zone chat. Even now, when you claim to use the word "carebear," as a descriptor, it's dripping from your keyboard. You just can't avoid using such a derogatory term, can you? Not find it in game? Every night I log into TS I hear it every 5 minutes: those not in our group are automatically "PuGs" who hardly ever do anything correctly and anyone in another guild are "baddies or zergers" who make the dumbest strategic choices. This is coming from someone who plays all 3 factions so it's not a one time thing or fluke. But go on thinking that all the "carebears" who cite among their reasons for not PvPing is they dislike the obnoxious culture. Somehow they are all wrong and absurd, but you are right.

In the bold, that is actually exactly what I'm trying to do. As for your preferences, well... I'm just talking from a balance perspective, while taking the audacious stance that my preference is a balanced game.

Expect and look for the worst in people an I dare say you'll find it. With "carebear," I really am only referring to people who refuse to play PvP based on unfounded preconceptions. Acting upon such prejudice is not model behavior. I'm not claiming PvPers are paragons of society, but certainly players in azuras are no worse than the players you'll find in trueflame! As for TS, I can't make any guarantees about what you will or will not find. I don't know anything about you so this is a huge assumption, but what you find in TS might say more about the company you keep rather than zone in general. If I'm off the mark on this one, just disregard it; it seems like we come from very different backgrounds in PvP. It sounds like you have access to organized groups. I, on the other hand, almost exclusively solo.

It seems as though we got off on the wrong foot. I did not intend to shift the tone with some mean-spirited word choice. Carebear, here, was just meant as the subset of players to which it refers, without the negative connotation. While writing it, I estimated I was still going to talk about groups of people, and rather than clarify every single time I said "people", I selected that word. I didnt end up continuing on that train of thought, however.

WhiteMage wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I find it amusing that you have never played 1.5 and are trying to disagree with my preferences. You do not need to tell me how the CP system works. I'm well aware. It's like you are trying to convince me that there is something about it that I'm not seeing which if I did would make me realize I am wrong and you are right.

It's not silly not to want to associate with condescension. It's not just on the forums. The mentality is there even if it's not in your face every night in AZ zone chat. Even now, when you claim to use the word "carebear," as a descriptor, it's dripping from your keyboard. You just can't avoid using such a derogatory term, can you? Not find it in game? Every night I log into TS I hear it every 5 minutes: those not in our group are automatically "PuGs" who hardly ever do anything correctly and anyone in another guild are "baddies or zergers" who make the dumbest strategic choices. This is coming from someone who plays all 3 factions so it's not a one time thing or fluke. But go on thinking that all the "carebears" who cite among their reasons for not PvPing is they dislike the obnoxious culture. Somehow they are all wrong and absurd, but you are right.

In the bold, that is actually exactly what I'm trying to do. As for your preferences, well... I'm just talking from a balance perspective, while taking the audacious stance that my preference is a balanced game.

Expect and look for the worst in people an I dare say you'll find it. With "carebear," I really am only referring to people who refuse to play PvP based on unfounded preconceptions. Acting upon such prejudice is not model behavior. I'm not claiming PvPers are paragons of society, but certainly players in azuras are no worse than the players you'll find in trueflame! As for TS, I can't make any guarantees about what you will or will not find. I don't know anything about you so this is a huge assumption, but what you find in TS might say more about the company you keep rather than zone in general. If I'm off the mark on this one, just disregard it; it seems like we come from very different backgrounds in PvP. It sounds like you have access to organized groups. I, on the other hand, almost exclusively solo.

It seems as though we got off on the wrong foot. I did not intend to shift the tone with some mean-spirited word choice. Carebear, here, was just meant as the subset of players to which it refers, without the negative connotation. While writing it, I estimated I was still going to talk about groups of people, and rather than clarify every single time I said "people", I selected that word. I didnt end up continuing on that train of thought, however.

I know that's what you are trying to do. But maybe I do see everything and prefer CPs? It's not wrong; just not your preference, that's all.

I don't expect the worst and I would not say TF players are better or worse (they come from the same pool), it's just that the general toxicity is a huge turnoff. You run a set someone else thinks is busted, you'll get bombarded with tells, being called a baddie, exploiter, a cancer. I don't need to be told on top of that I need a crutch to PvP or that somehow there its not "real" skill where I play. It gets old real quick.

There is no wrong foot. Just a different matter of perspective. I'm glad you enjoy AZ, but my original point to the OP is that ultimately, that's is what is needed to not only raise the population, but sustain it as well. People aren't going to consistently log in and do something that isn't fun - especially when there are alternatives.

Kartalin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I stopped playing AZ when the proc sets came.

Without CP, every nightblade gank on Azuras is instant death no matter what. With CP into hardy and elemental defender, you get a chance to react at least.

It's a good thing overall, because I discovered how much fun PVP is on a populated campaign like TF.

Hardy is kinda nullified by Mighty on CP campaigns....

Proc damage doesn't scale with mighty, but it is reduced by hardy.

Are you sure? I feel like I was getting more damage in PVE last night on a non crit valkyn skoria proc, like 11k damage on purple cp160 pieces. Unless it was empowered by dark flare or might of the guild...hmm., not sure.

Ummmm battle spirit?