ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin

HeroOfNone · December 2016

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

"Proc sets" as they are commonly called, are any set that can give a damage proc on an enemy when you attack them or with a certain ability. Commonly the most complained about are direct damage sets like veledreth, vipers sting, widowmaker, tremorscale, selene's helmet, and red mountain. Other sets, thst give a DOT or have very low damage, would also fall in this category but are much less complained about.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper

- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.

- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.

- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.

- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown

- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack

- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)

- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players

- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait

- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health

- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general

- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields

- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected

- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Qbiken · December 2016

I personaly like #2 the most. My biggest issue isn´t the dmg output from procsets, I can deal with those. The reason I die to them is because of the lagspiked that happens when they´re fired. A 5-6 second screenfreeze, and you´re dead. Fixing the lag in pvp (neverending request I know, but still) would fix it for me

STEVIL · December 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

HeroOfNone · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

Koolio · December 2016

Also Lich Warlock Alchemist Bloodspawn Pheonix the list goes on and on. Ready for patch notes that's for sure.

STEVIL · December 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Rohamad_Ali · December 2016

I like suggestions one and three . Great post OP . What I like is in no way a statement of which way is best to handle this issue , just my opinion of what would . Any balance on these in PvP would be welcomed by me after this long .

HeroOfNone · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Peekachu99 · December 2016

Damage and rate of activation should be normalized. I have no idea why some sets can do 10K with a 20% proc and others do less with weird aoes and smaller percentage chances of working.

Bad design. Everything damage should be 8-10%, maybe double that if it requires another mechanic (shields/ rolling/ whatever) to actually tick.

STEVIL · December 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

HeroOfNone · December 2016

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Damage and rate of activation should be normalized. I have no idea why some sets can do 10K with a 20% proc and others do less with weird aoes and smaller percentage chances of working.

Bad design. Everything damage should be 8-10%, maybe double that if it requires another mechanic (shields/ rolling/ whatever) to actually tick.

Many use a low percent as a fix, but I still see an issue there. Most times you lower the % it's on something like a DOT, that you can stack multiple on a target. So that 10% is 10 % on the 6 DOTS you stacked, raising the odds you'll get a trigger the set. That's pretty different from the proc sets we're talking about, which require an actual hit from the player. We're your dots could hit 6 times in a second, your abilities are still limited to about 2 per second with a light attack and ability. Thus your damage output on those will be much lower. In cases of tremor scal, only a taunt will trigger it, so only one chance every second. The only way to compensate for the drop in DPS compared to other sets then would be either up the damage or give it a damage over time to boost it.

All of this though is moot to some folks however if your the unlucky soul to have just the right day when all 3 go off at once. While it's not as likely, it won't make you feel any better being harassed by a nightblade that keeps hitting and cloaking, waiting for those sets to do the work for them.

HeroOfNone · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

A high amount of buffing and crit damage can be mitigated heavy with full impenetrable armor, plus most high end buff builds, save a kena/alchemist build, can deliver the same numbers as reliably as a 3 proc set build like veledreth, vipers sting, and widowmaker. Even players maxed on resistances are getting killed in seconds from the high burst. If you're in doubt search out those sets on the general forum here or PVP, there are numerous "passionate" complaints.

As for the damage calling that's a bit like some of the suggestions I posted up in
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

STEVIL · December 2016

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

A high amount of buffing and crit damage can be mitigated heavy with full impenetrable armor, plus most high end buff builds, save a kena/alchemist build, can deliver the same numbers as reliably as a 3 proc set build like veledreth, vipers sting, and widowmaker. Even players maxed on resistances are getting killed in seconds from the high burst. If you're in doubt search out those sets on the general forum here or PVP, there are numerous "passionate" complaints.

As for the damage calling that's a bit like some of the suggestions I posted up in
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

Exactly my point - the current high burst whammo that some find undesirable is not just for proc sets - there are multiple builds, multiple strategies and such that can produce it. The last several updates have raised the damage end of things on nearly all fronts, but proc-recap sets take the heat most of the time even when their sustained dps is lower than other top flight builds.

of course, part of that is likely in relation to the surge in heavy armor since it got revamped the update or two before 1T and the various "unkillables" builds so-called off of black rose and others later.

In short, if every recap set were removed tomorrow, it would not solve the problem, just reset to the last meta burst or metya-tank.

I for one would loves to see in the death recap screens and in various damage done combat stats the breakout of "sets" and the damage bonuses they provided during the battle and their healing and mitigation etc so folks could get a real idea of how much of their "performance" overall was "done by the sets".

it could be done now by someone running the DPS bloodspawn test wearing white normal non-set gear but nobody does that, not that its anything like a true dps measure.

Wreuntzylla · December 2016

Remove damage procs from undaunted sets. Make 5pc sets with those procs. Problem solved.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

A high amount of buffing and crit damage can be mitigated heavy with full impenetrable armor, plus most high end buff builds, save a kena/alchemist build, can deliver the same numbers as reliably as a 3 proc set build like veledreth, vipers sting, and widowmaker. Even players maxed on resistances are getting killed in seconds from the high burst. If you're in doubt search out those sets on the general forum here or PVP, there are numerous "passionate" complaints.

As for the damage calling that's a bit like some of the suggestions I posted up in
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

Exactly my point - the current high burst whammo that some find undesirable is not just for proc sets - there are multiple builds, multiple strategies and such that can produce it. The last several updates have raised the damage end of things on nearly all fronts, but proc-recap sets take the heat most of the time even when their sustained dps is lower than other top flight builds.

of course, part of that is likely in relation to the surge in heavy armor since it got revamped the update or two before 1T and the various "unkillables" builds so-called off of black rose and others later.

In short, if every recap set were removed tomorrow, it would not solve the problem, just reset to the last meta burst or metya-tank.

I for one would loves to see in the death recap screens and in various damage done combat stats the breakout of "sets" and the damage bonuses they provided during the battle and their healing and mitigation etc so folks could get a real idea of how much of their "performance" overall was "done by the sets".

it could be done now by someone running the DPS bloodspawn test wearing white normal non-set gear but nobody does that, not that its anything like a true dps measure.

The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game.

A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s..

Old meta's if someone wanted to full burst some they had to build for it, they have to stack stats like mad and even then those high stats builds didn't have the burst potential of proc sets.

No matter how high you stack your stats the tooltip aren't going to increase by 16k-20k of the proc tooltips.

Maybe someones surprise attack will increase from 8k - 10k or something but thats it.

I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high.

Viper needs to be like 15-20% condering it's melee damage (or mean't to be)

Tremor needs to go to like 20% also just shouldn't work in pvp period as you don't taunt players.

Infernal needs looking at as currently you proc it will pretty much with no cooldown, also 50% is a high chance. I don't like the whole premise of giving free damage when being on the defensive either.

These proc's sets are so badly balanced it's stupid.

SnubbS · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game.

A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s..

Old meta's if someone wanted to full burst some they had to build for it, they have to stack stats like mad and even then those high stats builds didn't have the burst potential of proc sets.

No matter how high you stack your stats the tooltip aren't going to increase by 16k-20k of the proc tooltips.

Maybe someones surprise attack will increase from 8k - 10k or something but thats it.

I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high.

Viper needs to be like 15-20% condering it's melee damage (or mean't to be)

Tremor needs to go to like 20% also just shouldn't work in pvp period as you don't taunt players.

Infernal needs looking at as currently you proc it will pretty much with no cooldown, also 50% is a high chance. I don't like the whole premise of giving free damage when being on the defensive either.

These proc's sets are so badly balanced it's stupid.

I'll preface this by saying that I agree Proc sets should be apart of the things nerfed (Along with heavy) -- and I don't think your suggestions are too far out of bounds. A 20% proc rate on Viper? 20% on Tremor? Completely fine, it should've been like that from the start imo. You have these ideas, and they're sensible, and they're really positions that no one would disagree with.

But you preface it with complete lies -- outright, lies. And no one is going to call you out on it because no one likes proc sets either -- I can't let this go.

First lie up is "RNG" -- "So much RNG" that's just not true. You basically admit that it isn't true by pointing out the absurdly high proc rates. If you get ganked by the Viper/Veli NB build -- it's not RNG that those procs hit you. If you actually believe that the reason you died is because of RNG -- you are actually delusional. The Viper/Tremor build is even a worse comparison -- A 50% proc rate on tremor? YEAH MAN RNG.

You clearly understand the fact that proc sets proccing too often is the biggest problem with them -- and yet you still start off with this outright lie.

Second lie is "A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s.."

A full tank cannot do this -- a heavy armor pvp user can, a full tank cannot. You obviously know that -- but you poison the well by lying through your teeth. It's almost like you're worried proc sets won't get nerfed, so you feel the need to pretend that they're these all powerful sets that allow you to do anything.

Wanna see what a full tank wearing tremor looks like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn1FWq7ycAE

Literally critting a level 30 Magsorc for 2.9k. Lemme tell you how strong these sets are when paired up with a FULL TANK.

As far as nerfs & changes go -- my ideas below.

Proc sets:

First, make the damage of proc sets not scale off the CP tree. This will equate to a 25% dmg reduction across the board.

Tremor: Reduce Snare to 2s, increase dmg 5% and reduce proc chance to 25%.

Viper: 30% Proc chance -- and remember, this ability is now a tooltip of 6500 instead of 8000. Big difference imo.

Veli: Buff it by making it actually work on inclines, then reduce proc rate to 15%. This change actually could end up making it better -- because it would actually work on hills.

Grothdar: In my opinion it's balanced already -- no need to nerf it into uselessness.

Skoria: Reduce dmg 5%. People talk about Viper/Veli/Tremor adding RNG into the game when they're proccing consistently and you can control when they proc -- when Skoria is actually a set that adds RNG. I don't understand it.

Selene: Bring dmg in line with Veli, cause proc to be undodgeable, and decrease proc chance to 15% and have the same cooldown as Veli. Basically -- it would be a single target Velidreth that always hit, and couldn't be procced off other damaging abilities.

Infernal Guardian: Reduce proc chance to 25%, Reduce dmg by 5% -- and make it the closest target rather than the farthest. Wanna talk about "RNG"? My IG will proc up the side of a wall and kill people when I'm fighting below -- that's RNG, and that, in my opinion, shouldn't happen.

As far as Stormfist, Redmountain, and any other proc sets go -- I'd leave them as is with the standard nerf of no longer allowing their dmg to be buffed by the CP trees. I hope they're nerfed without being made utterly pointless to slot -- unlike Trapping Webs.

Heavy Armor: Constitution needs to be returned to it's pre-buff tuning and the extra resource return on heavy attacks needs taken out. The simple fact of the matter is that Heavy Armor right now in PvP -- not blackrose -- heavy armor in general is outperforming everything else. I can run Hulking & Fury on a StamDK and fight for 5 minutes straight, it's a joke. I have more sustain now in Heavy than I had in 1.7 w/ 1600 regen and all the cost reductions that medium offers. The answer to this is nerf the heavy passives which affect sustain -- not to buff medium/light.

General ideas: Make the Healing Ward morph only apply to the caster. Make all executes undodgeable, or make radiant dodgeable again (Kappa). Reduce Eye of the Storm ult dmg by 15% and allow it to be blockable. Make Trapping Webs great again!

leepalmer95 · December 2016

SnubbS wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game.

A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s..

Old meta's if someone wanted to full burst some they had to build for it, they have to stack stats like mad and even then those high stats builds didn't have the burst potential of proc sets.

No matter how high you stack your stats the tooltip aren't going to increase by 16k-20k of the proc tooltips.

Maybe someones surprise attack will increase from 8k - 10k or something but thats it.

I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high.

Viper needs to be like 15-20% condering it's melee damage (or mean't to be)

Tremor needs to go to like 20% also just shouldn't work in pvp period as you don't taunt players.

Infernal needs looking at as currently you proc it will pretty much with no cooldown, also 50% is a high chance. I don't like the whole premise of giving free damage when being on the defensive either.

These proc's sets are so badly balanced it's stupid.

I'll preface this by saying that I agree Proc sets should be apart of the things nerfed (Along with heavy) -- and I don't think your suggestions are too far out of bounds. A 20% proc rate on Viper? 20% on Tremor? Completely fine, it should've been like that from the start imo. You have these ideas, and they're sensible, and they're really positions that no one would disagree with.

But you preface it with complete lies -- outright, lies. And no one is going to call you out on it because no one likes proc sets either -- I can't let this go.

First lie up is "RNG" -- "So much RNG" that's just not true. You basically admit that it isn't true by pointing out the absurdly high proc rates. If you get ganked by the Viper/Veli NB build -- it's not RNG that those procs hit you. If you actually believe that the reason you died is because of RNG -- you are actually delusional. The Viper/Tremor build is even a worse comparison -- A 50% proc rate on tremor? YEAH MAN RNG.

You clearly understand the fact that proc sets proccing too often is the biggest problem with them -- and yet you still start off with this outright lie.

Second lie is "A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s.."

A full tank cannot do this -- a heavy armor pvp user can, a full tank cannot. You obviously know that -- but you poison the well by lying through your teeth. It's almost like you're worried proc sets won't get nerfed, so you feel the need to pretend that they're these all powerful sets that allow you to do anything.

Wanna see what a full tank wearing tremor looks like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn1FWq7ycAE

Literally critting a level 30 Magsorc for 2.9k. Lemme tell you how strong these sets are when paired up with a FULL TANK.

As far as nerfs & changes go -- my ideas below.

Proc sets:

First, make the damage of proc sets not scale off the CP tree. This will equate to a 25% dmg reduction across the board.

Tremor: Reduce Snare to 2s, increase dmg 5% and reduce proc chance to 25%.

Viper: 30% Proc chance -- and remember, this ability is now a tooltip of 6500 instead of 8000. Big difference imo.

Veli: Buff it by making it actually work on inclines, then reduce proc rate to 15%. This change actually could end up making it better -- because it would actually work on hills.

Grothdar: In my opinion it's balanced already -- no need to nerf it into uselessness.

Skoria: Reduce dmg 5%. People talk about Viper/Veli/Tremor adding RNG into the game when they're proccing consistently and you can control when they proc -- when Skoria is actually a set that adds RNG. I don't understand it.

Selene: Bring dmg in line with Veli, cause proc to be undodgeable, and decrease proc chance to 15% and have the same cooldown as Veli. Basically -- it would be a single target Velidreth that always hit, and couldn't be procced off other damaging abilities.

Infernal Guardian: Reduce proc chance to 25%, Reduce dmg by 5% -- and make it the closest target rather than the farthest. Wanna talk about "RNG"? My IG will proc up the side of a wall and kill people when I'm fighting below -- that's RNG, and that, in my opinion, shouldn't happen.

As far as Stormfist, Redmountain, and any other proc sets go -- I'd leave them as is with the standard nerf of no longer allowing their dmg to be buffed by the CP trees. I hope they're nerfed without being made utterly pointless to slot -- unlike Trapping Webs.

Heavy Armor: Constitution needs to be returned to it's pre-buff tuning and the extra resource return on heavy attacks needs taken out. The simple fact of the matter is that Heavy Armor right now in PvP -- not blackrose -- heavy armor in general is outperforming everything else. I can run Hulking & Fury on a StamDK and fight for 5 minutes straight, it's a joke. I have more sustain now in Heavy than I had in 1.7 w/ 1600 regen and all the cost reductions that medium offers. The answer to this is nerf the heavy passives which affect sustain -- not to buff medium/light.

General ideas: Make the Healing Ward morph only apply to the caster. Make all executes undodgeable, or make radiant dodgeable again (Kappa). Reduce Eye of the Storm ult dmg by 15% and allow it to be blockable. Make Trapping Webs great again!

I agree with your idea's.

But your such an ass about it.

As soon as something has a % chance to proc that is RNG. That is the definition of RNG. There is RNG involved if someone incaps you when viper isn't on cooldown or veli doesn't proc that it's not too bad. If they incap you and they both proc then thats instant dead. That is called RNG. The proc just happened to line up and both proc at that time.

Im not sure what your definition of a full tank but in pvp mine is heavy s&b. Also pve tanks and pvp tanks are completely different. But yes in pvp wearing 2x proc sets a tank can easily reach 7.5k ransack tooltip. Then you can use that and then proc tremor which is around 8k~ and viper which is around 8k~ for a free 16k tooltip dmg. 2/3rd's of the dmg would come from proc sets. That is such huge burst, 24k combined tooltip dmg in 1 skill. Nothing comes close to that. Even those glass cannon old meta builds.

techprince · December 2016

Its highly impossible to balance PvE stats for PvP. Many mmo's have different stats for pve and pvp and armor sets are different as well.

Blackfyre20 · December 2016

I think in PVP everyone should be allowed to wear one damage proc set, whether it be a dot or instant DPS. I think there are a couple ways to implement this but it doesn't really matter as long as it gets done. When wearing multiple proc sets, only one is active would probably be the best way.

I also think there are sets which need to be adjusted individually even with this change. Velidreth does too much damage and procs too often. No proc sets should proc 100% of the time on anything (looking at you viper). The snare on tremorscale is absolutely absurd, that needs to go or be adjusted.

All of these changes won't matter though if ZOS doesn't also fix their broken game. Sets that are proccing on damage dealt should not also be proccing on damage taken and vice versa. Sets that are supposed to proc on melee damage should not be proccing on ranged attacks. Infernal guardian should not be pulling players out of stealth and hitting players through keep walls and doors. These are legitimate bugs and not balance issues and it's crazy that we have to wait 6+ months for fixes in the "balance patch."

Edit: almost left out broken infernal guardian

Messy1 · December 2016

Proc sets could function 2 ways:

PvE benefits
and
PvP benefits

The two would be mutually exclusive i.e. A set would give the PvE bonuses when not combating other players and the PvP bon uses when combating players. The two would be mutually exvlusive.

To go along with this there should be a menu that allows you to switch modes between PvE and PvP gear. I am not saying you should be able to switch gear instantly mid-fight, or add more weapon swapping, just another gear panel for players to keep track of..Someone could mod this, I think gear swap has a ton of this sort of feature right now.

Tavore1138 · December 2016

Why is Vicious Death being so carefully ignored here? Its the original patient zero that began the plague... not just a high damage proc but also an aoe proc... or is it just because those complaining about other sets are using this one? Destro ulti, proxy + vd is skill, other similar sets need to be removed?

Seems like a lot of the complaints are basically about being burst down single target or being ganked, if so then lets address that... although with the lowering of damage from stealth, damage overall and multiple stealth countering skills and sets I would be concerned just how much we'd all feel we were hitting each other with cushions.

Balance is great but way too much these discussions pretending deep insight are simply the usual suspects wanting to kill the play styles that got them while hoping their own op combos stay untouched.

Full disclosure - i have used both single target proc sets and destro ulti with vicious death in PvP and I get many easier kills with destro, proxy, vd versus having to come into melee range with something like viper...

SnubbS · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I agree with your idea's.

But your such an ass about it.

As soon as something has a % chance to proc that is RNG. That is the definition of RNG. There is RNG involved if someone incaps you when viper isn't on cooldown or veli doesn't proc that it's not too bad. If they incap you and they both proc then thats instant dead. That is called RNG. The proc just happened to line up and both proc at that time.

Im not sure what your definition of a full tank but in pvp mine is heavy s&b. Also pve tanks and pvp tanks are completely different. But yes in pvp wearing 2x proc sets a tank can easily reach 7.5k ransack tooltip. Then you can use that and then proc tremor which is around 8k~ and viper which is around 8k~ for a free 16k tooltip dmg. 2/3rd's of the dmg would come from proc sets. That is such huge burst, 24k combined tooltip dmg in 1 skill. Nothing comes close to that. Even those glass cannon old meta builds.

I honestly don't care about the definition of RNG -- it's not like these players have a roulette wheel with a small chance of landing on 'Insta-kill' and then hit you with the instakill. It's an incredibly high chance. Just from personal experience playing the build -- I sync my viper with my incap in the majority of fights that I'm in control of. It's just not very hard to do -- neither is syncing Viper/Tremor -- that's why they're OP as hell.

I understand what you're saying -- but it's always being presented in such a way that ZoS could misconstrue as "When wearing proc sets, no one knows who's going to kill each other -- it's up to RNG" When that simply isn't the case. Them both proccing with an incap is not insta-dead vs every build -- it probably shouldn't be possible to play a DPS build that can survive that much burst, but you can -- and almost everyone decent at the game does.

"Full tank"

Keyword here is Full. If you have Blackrose or Fury on w/ 25k health -- you're not a full tank, no one would look at that setup -- then look at a 40k health permablock-knight and say "Yeah, those are definitely the same." You're Tank-y, you're Tank-esq, but you're not a full tank. If you're an actual Support DK Tank -- running 40k health, guard etc -- that's a 'Full Tank'.

You're actually speaking of the build which I play the most -- and you are poisoning the well once more by saying "24K" tool tip on one skill. Do you ever get tired of misrepresenting the facts in order to get your way?

The "24k" from those three damaging abilities gets cut in half -- so that's 12k. Secondly, those abilities would all have to crit to even theoretically reach 12k -- and even then it wouldn't be possible vs a decent setup. I watch my viper/tremor hit players for 3-3.5k crits every fight. The damage from those three are more like 9-10k. That's still a lot -- but we started with "24K"

This build is not doing more burst damage than the glass cannon builds of the past -- you can go find videos of Zergbad literally one-comboing everyone from stealth prior to this meta. 13-17k Snipes consistently not requiring a proc, and not requiring multiple abilities to crit. The d/w sorcs of 1.8 -- the few that actually had Lich and could run Julianos+Shadow -- that build was absolutely nuking everyone. 10-12k Curses, 15k frags etc. The 1h/Shield Viper/Tremor build won't touch those numbers without a full combo + ult.

What this build provides is Survivability -- and that's what needs to be nerfed along with the proc sets. ZoS's number one priority this patch should be to get DDs out of heavy.

SnubbS · December 2016

Delete please.

MakoFore · December 2016

good ideas- you obviously put alot of thought into this.

I've said this before- but it bears repeating in case someone from Zos actually reads it.
for me- the prototype successful proc set was molag kena and engine guardian. they gave a bonus- but not too much, but more importantly - there was a COST. engine guardian- okay but u dont have mobility for a little while if ur fleeing. you had to decide whether it was worth using it or not- and if u did- it could backfire. all proc sets should be weighted the same- you want to use viper? okay make it proc with the synergy key- before u engage- but if u choose to proc it- and say the target interrupts you? the poison will backfire and u will bear the poison or selene or kragh damage.

the biggest problem behind the problem is that they ve reduced skill .
-they've allowed lesser players to beat good players
- they've taken away the ability to 1vx and
- - they've made fights too short.

whatever they do to proc sets- they have to amend those issues behind it- otherwise there will be no point.

HeroOfNone · December 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

A high amount of buffing and crit damage can be mitigated heavy with full impenetrable armor, plus most high end buff builds, save a kena/alchemist build, can deliver the same numbers as reliably as a 3 proc set build like veledreth, vipers sting, and widowmaker. Even players maxed on resistances are getting killed in seconds from the high burst. If you're in doubt search out those sets on the general forum here or PVP, there are numerous "passionate" complaints.

As for the damage calling that's a bit like some of the suggestions I posted up in
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

Exactly my point - the current high burst whammo that some find undesirable is not just for proc sets - there are multiple builds, multiple strategies and such that can produce it. The last several updates have raised the damage end of things on nearly all fronts, but proc-recap sets take the heat most of the time even when their sustained dps is lower than other top flight builds.

of course, part of that is likely in relation to the surge in heavy armor since it got revamped the update or two before 1T and the various "unkillables" builds so-called off of black rose and others later.

In short, if every recap set were removed tomorrow, it would not solve the problem, just reset to the last meta burst or metya-tank.

I for one would loves to see in the death recap screens and in various damage done combat stats the breakout of "sets" and the damage bonuses they provided during the battle and their healing and mitigation etc so folks could get a real idea of how much of their "performance" overall was "done by the sets".

it could be done now by someone running the DPS bloodspawn test wearing white normal non-set gear but nobody does that, not that its anything like a true dps measure.

Back after a bit of a weekend

There certain lyrics several high burst damage sets thst need to be addressed, however the recent proc sets require little setup, no restrictions, and have little downside in PVP. With something like the alchemist set or Molag Kena you have to use a potion or 3 light attacks along with eating up more resources. Other high boost sets require a specific weapon or to be hit first. This doesn't mean they are not annoying players and need adjustments though, but are just less annoying than the proc sets have been.

SnubbS wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game.

A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s..

Old meta's if someone wanted to full burst some they had to build for it, they have to stack stats like mad and even then those high stats builds didn't have the burst potential of proc sets.

No matter how high you stack your stats the tooltip aren't going to increase by 16k-20k of the proc tooltips.

Maybe someones surprise attack will increase from 8k - 10k or something but thats it.

I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high.

Viper needs to be like 15-20% condering it's melee damage (or mean't to be)

Tremor needs to go to like 20% also just shouldn't work in pvp period as you don't taunt players.

Infernal needs looking at as currently you proc it will pretty much with no cooldown, also 50% is a high chance. I don't like the whole premise of giving free damage when being on the defensive either.

These proc's sets are so badly balanced it's stupid.

I'll preface this by saying that I agree Proc sets should be apart of the things nerfed (Along with heavy) -- and I don't think your suggestions are too far out of bounds. A 20% proc rate on Viper? 20% on Tremor? Completely fine, it should've been like that from the start imo. You have these ideas, and they're sensible, and they're really positions that no one would disagree with.

But you preface it with complete lies -- outright, lies. And no one is going to call you out on it because no one likes proc sets either -- I can't let this go.

First lie up is "RNG" -- "So much RNG" that's just not true. You basically admit that it isn't true by pointing out the absurdly high proc rates. If you get ganked by the Viper/Veli NB build -- it's not RNG that those procs hit you. If you actually believe that the reason you died is because of RNG -- you are actually delusional. The Viper/Tremor build is even a worse comparison -- A 50% proc rate on tremor? YEAH MAN RNG.

You clearly understand the fact that proc sets proccing too often is the biggest problem with them -- and yet you still start off with this outright lie.

Second lie is "A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s.."

A full tank cannot do this -- a heavy armor pvp user can, a full tank cannot. You obviously know that -- but you poison the well by lying through your teeth. It's almost like you're worried proc sets won't get nerfed, so you feel the need to pretend that they're these all powerful sets that allow you to do anything.

Wanna see what a full tank wearing tremor looks like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn1FWq7ycAE

Literally critting a level 30 Magsorc for 2.9k. Lemme tell you how strong these sets are when paired up with a FULL TANK.

As far as nerfs & changes go -- my ideas below.

Proc sets:

First, make the damage of proc sets not scale off the CP tree. This will equate to a 25% dmg reduction across the board.

Tremor: Reduce Snare to 2s, increase dmg 5% and reduce proc chance to 25%.

Viper: 30% Proc chance -- and remember, this ability is now a tooltip of 6500 instead of 8000. Big difference imo.

Veli: Buff it by making it actually work on inclines, then reduce proc rate to 15%. This change actually could end up making it better -- because it would actually work on hills.

Grothdar: In my opinion it's balanced already -- no need to nerf it into uselessness.

Skoria: Reduce dmg 5%. People talk about Viper/Veli/Tremor adding RNG into the game when they're proccing consistently and you can control when they proc -- when Skoria is actually a set that adds RNG. I don't understand it.

Selene: Bring dmg in line with Veli, cause proc to be undodgeable, and decrease proc chance to 15% and have the same cooldown as Veli. Basically -- it would be a single target Velidreth that always hit, and couldn't be procced off other damaging abilities.

Infernal Guardian: Reduce proc chance to 25%, Reduce dmg by 5% -- and make it the closest target rather than the farthest. Wanna talk about "RNG"? My IG will proc up the side of a wall and kill people when I'm fighting below -- that's RNG, and that, in my opinion, shouldn't happen.

As far as Stormfist, Redmountain, and any other proc sets go -- I'd leave them as is with the standard nerf of no longer allowing their dmg to be buffed by the CP trees. I hope they're nerfed without being made utterly pointless to slot -- unlike Trapping Webs.

Heavy Armor: Constitution needs to be returned to it's pre-buff tuning and the extra resource return on heavy attacks needs taken out. The simple fact of the matter is that Heavy Armor right now in PvP -- not blackrose -- heavy armor in general is outperforming everything else. I can run Hulking & Fury on a StamDK and fight for 5 minutes straight, it's a joke. I have more sustain now in Heavy than I had in 1.7 w/ 1600 regen and all the cost reductions that medium offers. The answer to this is nerf the heavy passives which affect sustain -- not to buff medium/light.

General ideas: Make the Healing Ward morph only apply to the caster. Make all executes undodgeable, or make radiant dodgeable again (Kappa). Reduce Eye of the Storm ult dmg by 15% and allow it to be blockable. Make Trapping Webs great again!

While I wouldn't mind a rework of certain sets, keep in mind they can still RNG one sgot if a % is given and ZOS mess them up again. It is essentially what #1 talks about, however I feel that most will still be one shot procced and complaining on the forums.

techprince wrote: »

Its highly impossible to balance PvE stats for PvP. Many mmo's have different stats for pve and pvp and armor sets are different as well.

Messy1 wrote: »

Proc sets could function 2 ways:

PvE benefits
and
PvP benefits

The two would be mutually exclusive i.e. A set would give the PvE bonuses when not combating other players and the PvP bon uses when combating players. The two would be mutually exvlusive.

To go along with this there should be a menu that allows you to switch modes between PvE and PvP gear. I am not saying you should be able to switch gear instantly mid-fight, or add more weapon swapping, just another gear panel for players to keep track of..Someone could mod this, I think gear swap has a ton of this sort of feature right now.

Both of these tie together on the parity issue. I don't think it's impossible to balance, but new mechanics are certainly needed. Several ideas like Bane damage and adjustments to battle spirit for example can be used to give different balancing between PVE & PVP. Question is how much can we really stuff in battle spirit before we consider giving new traits or passives that affect pvp specifically.

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Why is Vicious Death being so carefully ignored here? Its the original patient zero that began the plague... not just a high damage proc but also an aoe proc... or is it just because those complaining about other sets are using this one? Destro ulti, proxy + vd is skill, other similar sets need to be removed?

Seems like a lot of the complaints are basically about being burst down single target or being ganked, if so then lets address that... although with the lowering of damage from stealth, damage overall and multiple stealth countering skills and sets I would be concerned just how much we'd all feel we were hitting each other with cushions.

Balance is great but way too much these discussions pretending deep insight are simply the usual suspects wanting to kill the play styles that got them while hoping their own op combos stay untouched.

Full disclosure - i have used both single target proc sets and destro ulti with vicious death in PvP and I get many easier kills with destro, proxy, vd versus having to come into melee range with something like viper...

Not ignoring Vicious Death but it requires you kill someone first before it triggers. Many of the sets bring discussed here can be used without restriction. I would argue though that several ideas hete could still apply to Vicious Death though.

As for most players arguing their own playstyles, that's to be expected. There is always going to be a bias to play how you want, but hopefully most of us can see the recent complaints on 3 proc set gank ing has been from pug and veteran player alike. A lot of this gets more into my ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016 topic though, particularly with quick time to kill.

olsborg · December 2016

I like #2 and #3, together.

STEVIL · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Good Afternoon Citizens of Tamriel!

This week's Arm Chair Developer focus is on PVP. I've broken this out into 3 seperate related topics:
ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016
ACD: Fixing Proc Sets, ZOS's Roadmap to Success or Ruin
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

I'm bringing this topic here to General because while we're attempting to fix Proc sets in PVP, the impact could be major to PVE. I've culled these suggestions from top level players in PVP, PVE, and the general community. I tried not to outright plagiarize other posts, so if you want to reply with a link your ideas, feel free. One of these ideas is likely already being implimented by ZOS as we speak, but it's important to consider YOUR feedback on this so we can prevent repeating bad builds in future DLC.

The suggestions thus far:
1. Lower the chance to all proc sets & add a low chance to proc on sets like the viper
- Would reduce the number of instant kill ganks on the average.
- Will still have the potential of multiple sets proccing at once.
- Will reduce the over all DPS by a factor of its RNG on PVE, making certain sets useless
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

2. Blanket reduce the damage of proc sets in PVP using battle spirit.
- Will make it so wearing three proc sets won't one shot players.
- Will trivialize wearing one or two proc sets, the damage will be too low
- Will likely need to reduce buff, damage shields, & heal sets to balance things out
- Heavy armor likely to be harder to kill still
- Will affect only PVP builds

3. Only one set can go off at a time & sets can't trigger other sets abilities.
- Will require interactions by the player to trigger any proc set
- Can likely still have a very fast burst due to light/heavy attacks weaved with abilities can count as 2 hits.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

4. Assign a major/minor proc debuff to all proc sets for 6 seconds. Major procs are direct damage procs, minor are any DOT procs. When a debuff is up, players can not trigger a similar proc.
- Most sets and cool downs may need adjustments with RNG and damage
- May need a more clear way to explain this on the sets.
- Would make wearing a single Proc set still strong, but usless to stack on 3 high damage proc sets.
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

5. Make all proc sets to DOTs with equivalent damage over the cooldown
- This will reduce the burst without ruining the DPS
- will give an advantage to templars that can cleanse or Nightblades that can cloak away
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

6. Require all proc sets have a unique, non overlapping ability used. Similar to sheer venom (execute ability), tremorscale (taunt), sunderflame (fully charged heavy attack
- Could stop most one hit 6+ damage sources
- Certain ability chains will still produce a high amount of damage
- Limited number of ability types to prevent overlap
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

7. Make more sets require to be in melee range (tremorscale, viper, etc.)
- Will reduce the amount of proc set snipers.
- Gives less reason to use Bow
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

8. Make proc sets not work against players
- A bit extreme, but removes the RNG and other issues
- Would need to be made clear to players
- Would assumable work against NPCS (guards & deadra in IC)
- Will affect only PVP builds

9. Up the mitigation of proc sets through the impenetrable trait
- Will make impenetrable even more required for PVP
- Will leave other non impenetrable builds still wide open to the same issues
- Will affect only PVP builds

10. Rebalance all proc sets and several other sets so 3 can't be used at one time and produce enough damage to one shot a player at 20k health
- Won't stop an imbalance from happening again
- Will reduce most sets to being too low DPS to be viable in PVE
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

11. Give proc sets a "bane" to certain species or just to non-PVP mobs in general. This means damage will boost against certain types of mobs or against NPCS in general
- Will allow different balancing between PVE & PVP damage models
- Will need to be clear about the buff
- Could make for interesting balance verse certain monsters & dungeons
- Will affect both PVP & PVE builds

12. Up the mitigation of procs by armor and damage shields
- Gives another advantage over unprepared light armor targets
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

13. Make procs count as a casted spell, which can be absorbed or reflected
- only helps a few builds
- Unprepared targets still up to be one shot
- Will affect mostly PVP builds

That's the top 13 fixes so far, more than likely you'll see one or more in upcoming patches. While we wait for the fix though, reply what suggestions you like or better yet reply with your own solution. I'll be waiting to see what other ideas I might have missed.

Thanks for your time.

Without specifying what you are considering proc sets to include, meaningful input is difficult.

This should start with scope and definition of problem not with the pick a solution stage.

Imo.

Iirc ashen grip is a proc set cuz it spawns an effect on a random event. Do we lower it's damage too?

Night mother gaze spawns a debuff on a random chance that can result in a ton of extra dmg.

Is this only concerned with recap sets - where damage done is listed separately in recap?

Ah, fair point, most folks say "proc sets" in reference to any set that can deal a high amount of direct damage, though it would not exclude DOT sets in my view point. I'll update that in.

So the only problem being looked at here is Hugh burst damage in pvp where the set's end bonus damage is visible as separate line item on recaps?

Is that a fair assessment?

Burst is the primary issue, check out #1 & #4 in ACD: Top 10 PVP issues of 2016

Ok so looking at 1 and 4 it seems total burst delivered in a very short period not just burst from proc sets is the key problem?

IE being killed by a high crit chance high crit dmg plus poison hit with ambush, incap, in a single nano-jiffy is not "fine" either?

OK then stop beating around the bush imo and set a "cannot die within x seconds" timer that would allow everyone on every combat time to react.

Otherwise it's just a lot of "my kills are good kilks" v "your kill are bad kills" restructuring to shift what is optimal.

Cap all damage in pvp at 90% of max health in any 5 second period? Or 10s or 3s. Whatever gives you the feel you like.

A high amount of buffing and crit damage can be mitigated heavy with full impenetrable armor, plus most high end buff builds, save a kena/alchemist build, can deliver the same numbers as reliably as a 3 proc set build like veledreth, vipers sting, and widowmaker. Even players maxed on resistances are getting killed in seconds from the high burst. If you're in doubt search out those sets on the general forum here or PVP, there are numerous "passionate" complaints.

As for the damage calling that's a bit like some of the suggestions I posted up in
ACD: The Battle for PVP Improvements

Exactly my point - the current high burst whammo that some find undesirable is not just for proc sets - there are multiple builds, multiple strategies and such that can produce it. The last several updates have raised the damage end of things on nearly all fronts, but proc-recap sets take the heat most of the time even when their sustained dps is lower than other top flight builds.

of course, part of that is likely in relation to the surge in heavy armor since it got revamped the update or two before 1T and the various "unkillables" builds so-called off of black rose and others later.

In short, if every recap set were removed tomorrow, it would not solve the problem, just reset to the last meta burst or metya-tank.

I for one would loves to see in the death recap screens and in various damage done combat stats the breakout of "sets" and the damage bonuses they provided during the battle and their healing and mitigation etc so folks could get a real idea of how much of their "performance" overall was "done by the sets".

it could be done now by someone running the DPS bloodspawn test wearing white normal non-set gear but nobody does that, not that its anything like a true dps measure.

The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game.

A full tank can block cast a ransack at you for 7.5k tooltip and proc tremor/viper for a free 16k tooltip every 4s..

Old meta's if someone wanted to full burst some they had to build for it, they have to stack stats like mad and even then those high stats builds didn't have the burst potential of proc sets.

No matter how high you stack your stats the tooltip aren't going to increase by 16k-20k of the proc tooltips.

Maybe someones surprise attack will increase from 8k - 10k or something but thats it.

I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high.

Viper needs to be like 15-20% condering it's melee damage (or mean't to be)

Tremor needs to go to like 20% also just shouldn't work in pvp period as you don't taunt players.

Infernal needs looking at as currently you proc it will pretty much with no cooldown, also 50% is a high chance. I don't like the whole premise of giving free damage when being on the defensive either.

These proc's sets are so badly balanced it's stupid.

i have such a hard time understanding your logic here.

I will start from your initial core statement and then go into a land of confusion.

"The different previous meta's didn't help unskilled players or add so much RNG to the game."

Ok so you complain about the added RNG and yet then a few sentences later you key on the HIGH PROBABILITY sets as problems? You literally mention VIPERS which, at 100%, is NO RNG AT ALL. You seem in favor of lowering chances"
"I do think a lot of the proc chances need to be looked at, 50% for infernal, 100% viper, 50% tremor, 20% velidreth etc... Those are all far too high."

How in the world is lowering the high probability or even the not random at all sets to lower probabilities not actually RAISING the RNG factor you complain these sets added too much of?

I see zero logic here?

Second, you repeat the tired " help unskilled players" line.

There is also a place where we disagree.

Julianos, Hundings, etc the pure stat bonus sets - they add more sustain damageand results than the proc sets do.they add them no matter what? There is no requirement other than swinging a sword or really any wpddmg ability to get the hundings benefits. You dont have to flank the enemy (gladiator), you dont have to get to melee range (viper), you dont have to weather incoming attacks (night terror) or hit with fire or any of the other conditional procs. You dont have any "RNG" chance of the bonus from hundings not working. It works every time.

The hundings and julianos and other such "always on no matter what with no requirements or conditions to activate or chance of failure" sets help so-called "less skilled players" every time, all the time and nothing can stop it. They also apply vs all the various damage types associated with it - physical, poison etc.

On the other hand, against vipers, a so-called "more skilled player" can move to keep them at range, watch the clock and when the 4Sec proc is up block, stack poisons resist.

There are counter plays to the proc sets, many of them, and in general their sustain damage isn't on par with sustain damage builds.

So, yeah, i get that for some now its "the wrong guys are winning with these builds" and going back to the builds you already have golden being back on top is appealing, but thats the first law of nerf-o-dynamics on parade.

But you really need more logical consistency than complaining they add too much RNG then proposing to lower their odds for high probability or no RNG sets?

And until i start seeing floods of clamoring for "normal pvp servers" where all white non-gear sets are de jure, i wont start believing that "victory by build strength" isn't a normal - acceptable part of pvp.

HeroOfNone · December 2016

Sadly most of the ideas that the community or I seem ignored in the Update 13 - Sneak peak notes. As stated:

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

While the ability to crit on procs does give a lot of burst, it's going to reduce the damage potential for PVE builds and at the same time have minimal effect on the PVP issue we're trying to address.

As stated in numerous suggested solutions, the issue is with damage stacking all at once, the crit just made it overkill to the existing situation. If a proc set does just 4k per set average, and a NightBlade ganks with it, 3 x 4000 = 12000, without the additional consideration if they are uding poisons, what their attack hits for, and what the 2nd attack will be since you're CCed. If running a DPS build you're likely at 20k-22k health, put into execute range or lower after the first hit. For heavy, you'll take a reduction, but likely be at half health without dome serious protection buffs.

You're still looking at a 2 second kill with no time to react in most situations, one of the biggest PVP issues the player base complains about

Most of the above suggestions are made to either spread out the damage over time or stop the triple stack, most of which have less impact on PVE and gives more reaction time in PVP.

I really urge @ZOS_RichLambert and others to give more consideration to this topic and hope to see more addressed in the full update 13 patch notes.

And when testing, make sure to stack and run 3 proc sets, viper, red mountain, and veledreth with poisons. Watch the time to kill from a gank with these changes. If it's short you should know there is more work to do, because that is the main problem.