It's been a while... Lets make another AOE caps thread.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

As this game keeps on getting more casual friendly despite the fact every time it goes in this direction i think it's can't go further. yet it proves me wrong.

Lets talk about the AOE caps that 80% of people voted to remove on the poll zos made. Thousands of votes and zos just decide to ignore it anyway.

Inca se many people aren't aware and im' sure many people actually aren't, because things like this will not be common knowledge for newish or new players.

Basically AOE is the reduction of AOE damage of abilities with the more people the aoe hits.

The first 6 people take 100% of damage
The next 24 takes 50% of damage
The last 30 take 25% of damage

Your capped on hitting 60 people at once.

Now Zos main argument for this was that they don't want aoe to be the end all in pvp. They don't want the damage to be so big it can outpace healing.... Good job on this zos.

Well this seems to have just back fired completely.

Now instead of a group of like 2-3 people attempting to aoe groups of 12-24 after they've led them to a choke point or something they won't be able too because the players will be protect by aoe caps and will survive. Why are people being protected when they are in a bigger group? They already have an advantage of being in the larger group and having more damage, heals, support etc.. just by actually having like 2-3x more people.

Instead all this has seemed to do is just encourage zerging even more. With players in groups of like 2-4 unable to even pick at the large zergs these players decided to just form larger groups. 6 people for 100% damage and the next for 50% doesn't matter too much if you just double or triple your numbers. So instead of these small groups or a single player that have the ability to punish larger groups if the larger groups make mistakes they can't any longer so they get more people. The zerg gets wiped and gets more people etc...

I'm not sure why players take less aoe dmg the more people they are with... kind of goes against the idea of aoe in the first place.

Stop protecting unskilled players with mechanics that just aren't needed. People may actually spread out a bit if it's possible their blob can get wiped by a few good ult's. Or they may actually learn some game mechanic's and slot their own self heals and not rely on the dmg reduction and the smart heals to stay alive.

Just maybe you won't get 561cp people who have only zerged the entire time they've been in pvp and therefore are so terrible at actual combat they may as well be sub 100 cp noobs. Some of them are just shocking, they don't know how to heal properly or successfully kill a player on their own. They don't know how to interrupt certain things... etc... Most of them just mist form away or hold block and spam heals. Or block cast skills doing 2k damage because they have 40k+ hp and because 2k dmg is enough when your 40 man group chases down solo players.

Come on zos add some skill to your game. These last few patches the learning curse shifted so much the noobs just stopped learned.

- WTB timer to revive people, so zergers don't go yolo because of 0 downsides if they die as the blob will revive them. 10s First death within 30 minutes, 2 mins second death. Reset on revive at a keep? Separate from camp timers. Make it so dieing has a meaning and there are actual consequences.
- Remove AOE caps of course..
- I'd love for something to be done with the smart healing skill such as BoL. I'd love for some people to do something other than run 40k hp with 2k regen and spam BoL holding block for the entire fight.
- Proc sets are getting addressing so i can stop worrying about these 40k tanks with a 6k ransack tooltip block casting it for a free 16k proc dmg from viper/tremor or a gap closer spammer hitting me for 20k free tooltip dmg with veli/viper...

Been a while since a had a nice rant.
Preparing for the hate.

/E Incase any of the new people are curious the aoe cap thread, here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232730/aoe-caps-discussion/p1

Wollust · December 2016

AoE caps are here to stay. They made that pretty clear. Even if a majority of the forum people (including myself) was against it. The horse is dead, no point beating it any longer.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Wollust wrote: »

AoE caps are here to stay. They made that pretty clear. Even if a majority of the forum people (including myself) was against it. The horse is dead, no point beating it any longer.

Why not?

Problems seem to appear every patch and are ignored and then forgotten and them more problems appear which just makes the game worse and worse..

If AOE caps weren't here then VD wouldn't be a thing.

If heavy armor was balanced when they overbuffed it then these 30k tanks with the same burst of proc sets wouldn't exist, The proc set would still be op but at least the people using them would be squishy..

Wollust · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

AoE caps are here to stay. They made that pretty clear. Even if a majority of the forum people (including myself) was against it. The horse is dead, no point beating it any longer.

Why not?

Problems seem to appear every patch and are ignored and then forgotten and them more problems appear which just makes the game worse and worse..

If AOE caps weren't here then VD wouldn't be a thing.

If heavy armor was balanced when they overbuffed it then these 30k tanks with the same burst of proc sets wouldn't exist, The proc set would still be op but at least the people using them would be squishy..

Because ZoS has a quite the track record of not listening to community suggestion. AoE caps have been discussed for almost 2 years before they eventually got adressed by ZoS. With them saying they won't change them. So no, there is no point because they won't change them, for at least as long as the same people that said no previously are in charge.

Lord-Otto · December 2016

I think it's a technical reason and fixing that is too much effort for an aspect of the game which yields little income.

Honestly, I don't mind AoE caps too much, six players is still plenty.
I mind Impulse being useless and not having ranged AoE. I mind not having my ult gain to scale with opponents, same with resources. I mind CROWD control effects, 'xcept Fear, to not help against groups at all, but rather helping them by consistently stunning you every five seconds. I mind not having a gap opener to kite groups and help being gapclose spammed. I mind not having an awesome escape tool like Cloak to avoid running into a zerg behind that hill.

All of this is in place to make Cyro more beginner-friendly. ZOS don't want those 1vX videos. They don't want small organized groups to take out zergs.
ZOS want to show off their advertised large-scaled battles, it's ESO PvP's main gimmick. They want it to embrace new players with deep pockets to spend crowns on a riding scroll or similar. They want numbers and RNG to win the war, as this makes it so easy for you to tell your friends to get ESO and win in PvP.

The business model is extremely successful and the sheer amount of Atro mounts I see, even on younger players, tells me it's here to stay.
In ZOS' eyes, there is nothing to fix, as there is nothing broken.

DannyLV702 · December 2016

The though of the removal of aoe caps excites the hell out of me. But we'll see dragons flying in cyrodiil before they remove aoe caps. They've explained their logic and I still do not understand nor agree. Why can't they give pvp'ers something that'll legitimetaly make us happy for once?

leepalmer95 · December 2016

It's funny how their change of aoe caps was to stop aoe being so powerful that it can wipe groups...

Only for groups to just get larger to compensate for the aoe caps..

Then the 10 frames lag began, where is that post of a dev saying 'guys spread out the server can't handle it'.

Dr.NRG · December 2016

I agree but there are currently much worse game breaking things. However, it would be good for pvp cause the broken *** desto ulti would make people think twice about zerging. They should remove caps and scale the desto ulti like proxy det;) Make it as strong as a dawnbreaker against single targets but and make those zerglings suffer heheh

OutLaw_Nynx · December 2016

This again?

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

This again?

And everyone agree with topicstarter point, AoE caps is first reason for blobing zergs, so it's not only buff zerg vs small group but also causes lags

acw37162 · December 2016

AOE Cap thread > Proc Set thread

One is getting changed one is not. I'm tired of threads about both.

Mojmir · December 2016

As long as wrobels in charge,no change

Celas_Dranacea · December 2016

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

That analogy is just so bad.

Try comparing it to a meteor or a fire storm.

Pretty sure the amount of people in the firestorm would be irrelevant.

Would 4 random people magically on have half the injuries because aoe caps?

Good job trying to bring real life logic into a fantasy mmo.

danno8 · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

That analogy is just so bad.

Try comparing it to a meteor or a fire storm.

Pretty sure the amount of people in the firestorm would be irrelevant.

Would 4 random people magically on have half the injuries because aoe caps?

Good job trying to bring real life logic into a fantasy mmo.

He does have a point about blast radius, but those kinds of calculations would kill the server if it needed to base damage on distance from the AoE.

I agree with you on your points though. What I would like to see as a start is PBAoE being limited in number of targets, but ground targeted AoE being unlimited.

Celas_Dranacea · December 2016

danno8 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

That analogy is just so bad.

Try comparing it to a meteor or a fire storm.

Pretty sure the amount of people in the firestorm would be irrelevant.

Would 4 random people magically on have half the injuries because aoe caps?

Good job trying to bring real life logic into a fantasy mmo.

He does have a point about blast radius, but those kinds of calculations would kill the server if it needed to base damage on distance from the AoE.

I agree with you on your points though. What I would like to see as a start is PBAoE being limited in number of targets, but ground targeted AoE being unlimited.

I'm amazed that I'm even engaging in this conversation but I had a long train ride home.

That analogy has always been what I think of when I think or aoe caps - seems fair enough to me. In the case of - let's see - soul tether, dawn breaker, DW ulti, leap, steel tornado, bombard, impulse, jabs, radial sweep, overload heavy attack, and many other abilities the analogy makes sense. Though calculating the distance from origin would not work it's enough of a justification for me.

There's other abilities perhaps like destro ulti, standard, veil etc where the analogy doesn't really make sense, but I think removing aoe caps for them is probably a bad idea.

Not that real world justification is necessary, I think a little basis in real world physics makes abilities make more sense, and in this regard I think aoe caps make sense - you can't drench 60 people in beer when you have one can of beer.

Sorry for the mean tone, but the phrase "aoe-cap hating forehead" made me chuckle, so I wrote it.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

That analogy is just so bad.

Try comparing it to a meteor or a fire storm.

Pretty sure the amount of people in the firestorm would be irrelevant.

Would 4 random people magically on have half the injuries because aoe caps?

Good job trying to bring real life logic into a fantasy mmo.

He does have a point about blast radius, but those kinds of calculations would kill the server if it needed to base damage on distance from the AoE.

I agree with you on your points though. What I would like to see as a start is PBAoE being limited in number of targets, but ground targeted AoE being unlimited.

I'm amazed that I'm even engaging in this conversation but I had a long train ride home.

That analogy has always been what I think of when I think or aoe caps - seems fair enough to me. In the case of - let's see - soul tether, dawn breaker, DW ulti, leap, steel tornado, bombard, impulse, jabs, radial sweep, overload heavy attack, and many other abilities the analogy makes sense. Though calculating the distance from origin would not work it's enough of a justification for me.

There's other abilities perhaps like destro ulti, standard, veil etc where the analogy doesn't really make sense, but I think removing aoe caps for them is probably a bad idea.

Not that real world justification is necessary, I think a little basis in real world physics makes abilities make more sense, and in this regard I think aoe caps make sense - you can't drench 60 people in beer when you have one can of beer.

Sorry for the mean tone, but the phrase "aoe-cap hating forehead" made me chuckle, so I wrote it.

meh, deep breath, standard, bat swarm, nova, veil of blades, there's a lot of abilities which have animation what doesn't synergies with caps.

Removing AoE caps is a good thing, having them only makes stupid blobs of people who spam execute or even light attacks and they does not have any reason to L2P.

Armitas · December 2016

I would love to see some sort of rez timer for manual rezes. We have defended so many keeps that should have been ours but it turns into World War Z with all these zerg zombie rezes. If your zerg of 50 is wipping to 16 people you should lose that keep, not just overtake it with a title wave of zombies.

arkansas_ESO · December 2016

Man, that thread by Wrobel that the OP linked. Nothing good came of it at all. He mentions that Magicka Detonation was meant to bust zergs but is used more by zergs than against them--that's still true a year later. He mentions that he doesn't want AOE to dominate PVP--then he adds in things like Eye of the Storm and Hurricane. Why even post the thread when you're not going to solve any of the issues you bring up (and most times make the issue even worse), @Wrobel ?

mb10 · December 2016

Starting to think AoE caps were a fantastic idea.

Of course there needs to be caps if most people run groups of 12 templars/DKs with 35k+health each all in heavy armour, all dropping ultimates at the same time. The game wont be fun. Will just be which group has more health and more ultimates up.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Starting to think AoE caps were a fantastic idea.

Of course there needs to be caps if most people run groups of 12 templars/DKs with 35k+health each all in heavy armour, all dropping ultimates at the same time. The game wont be fun. Will just be which group has more health and more ultimates up.

The game is already like that.

Difference is as well as being such a disadvantage being in a smaller group the larger group is also protected by aoe caps.

So they have people, healing damage and get a nice dmg reduction as well because why not.

alexkdd99 · December 2016

danno8 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Say you are standing in the middle of a group of 60 people packed tightly into a circle.

You vigorously shake a can of beer and violently smash it against your AOE-cap hating forehead.

When that beer can explodes - would the beer fall on all 60 people equally, or more so on the people who had the misfortune of being nearest to you?

That analogy is just so bad.

Try comparing it to a meteor or a fire storm.

Pretty sure the amount of people in the firestorm would be irrelevant.

Would 4 random people magically on have half the injuries because aoe caps?

Good job trying to bring real life logic into a fantasy mmo.

He does have a point about blast radius, but those kinds of calculations would kill the server if it needed to base damage on distance from the AoE.

I agree with you on your points though. What I would like to see as a start is PBAoE being limited in number of targets, but ground targeted AoE being unlimited.

No he doesn't. In rl you can't stand inside someone else, even if you could summon a meteor. Rl rules such as that don't apply.

Btw the fact that the AoE does hit everyone proves that his analogy is incorrect. Aoe caps are stupid and don't really make any sense.

As to the timer on respawn I vote no. Cyrodiil is already becoming less populated, don't need another thing to cause you to wait longer between fights.