Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

The long and the short of it all is, Skyrim needed mods, ESO doesn't. I love Skyrim as much as the next Skyrim lover, but some of what you mention isn't even available to a large section of gamers or at least they weren't for the first 5 years.

Even ignoring the SP v MMO aspect, it's unfair to compare a modded game to a vanilla game. In Skyrim, sneak was waaaaaaaaaaay too OP, the cross hair of bows were off and there were no head shots. So i have no idea what you're talking about because I had none of that in my Skyrim due to having no access to mods. As for the horse, I don't think I ever bought one. The first time I rode a horse in Skyrim was Arvak and that soon got old. The rest i didn't read.

i head shot people in skyrim 360 no issue. >.>;; head shots were in the game, just had to learn to aim.

Heh, maybe some people didn't know gravity would make the arrows drop during flight :P

Dear god... Threads like this remind me of the pre-release eso forums. This particular topic is up there in the "Dead horses, The hall of fame" together with 'Faction Locks' and 'Will there be dragons?' Surprised to see they still emerge after all this time... I have to say the TES community is among the most relentless I've ever seen.

@danno8

There are hundreds of mods to solve that exact problem, and a few of them are far superior than anything that's been in a Bethesda game. That's the benefit of a single player/co-op game: Mods. With mods, you can change anything you dislike. And with mods, Oblivion's gameplay can become far, far superior to what's in Fallout 4's, Skyrim's, or ESO's vanilla state.

I played ES games since Daggerfall. It's Skyrim that doesn't smell like an ES game

I am so happy that in ESO you can't max blacksmithing just spamming iron daggers, and then craft a full ebon armor enanched thanks to potions (potions of blacksmithing wtf).

I am happy that all armors don't end be just the same stuff tnks to feat trees.

I am happy that if you want to be the best in stealth you can't just use heavy armors.

I am happy that guards now are something you can mind again.

Or that you can't lock enemies in a CC chain just using heavy attacks with a very simple timing.

ESO can be emproved, of course, but Skyrim is the worst example of what an ES game should be.

Most of my reaction is along the same "It's an MMO" lines as the other commenters, though points for making me laugh in the introduction.

Re: immersion... I feel your pain, really. I love immersion more than anything too, but that's just not something MMOs are capable of doing without really restricting what other players do. there are always people who don't care about the story and just want to be the very best at their chosen build so they can 1-shot scrubs in pvp. It's just part of the genre, and neither you nor the designers can do much to stop it.

Another part of the genre is that the games are designed to keep you coming back. For games like Skyrim and the Witcher, the idea is to give you a big expansive world up front at the box price. You can play that for however long you feel like... all that matters sales-wise is that you buy the box... and that you enjoyed it enough that you'll buy any DLCs that come out.

MMOs don't make their money that way. MMOs have servers to upkeep, so they need reasons for you to come back month after month, to keep you paying that sub fee or for cash shop perks. Some MMOs rely on grinding (which, no, this one is not one of those BY FAR. In ESO, people only grind because it's the most efficient option, but there are plenty of other ways to gain EXP. I've been on MMOs where, past a certain point, grinding is literally the only option. Those are very different games). Other games rely on repeatable quests, or a slow crafting system, or encouraging you to play multiple characters... a good MMO gives reasons for players to play continuously.

In short: taking forever to create and gear up a new build isn't a bug. it's a feature.

This section stood out to me:

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

I'd love to kill monsters and they disappear for long enough so that it feels like I've accomplished something. Maybe the respawn timer could be 20 minutes, but the xp could be insanely higher to justify this, along with increased difficulty, giving me incentive to go on to new areas that I've never been once I've cleared the zombie spawn that I've been grinding for the past 10000 kills (at least ESO players are better prepared for the Zombie apocalypse).

...Dude. Do you realize how bad a 20-minute respawn timer would be in a multiplayer game? How quickly people would exploit that to get the mobs right when they pop? How few casual players would ever get to kill anything at all, because all the vets are sweeping through the area, grinding mobs? And what about mobs that drop materials? Would each wolf carry 30 pieces of leather? What about the crafters who just don't get to their mobs on time? No.... a 20-minute spawn timer is just a bad, bad idea.

You have a couple decent points. Every other patch changing the way the game works, for example? Yes, that's something that bugs me too. I understand addressing class balance issues, but the thing is that the classes are never going to be balanced, because as soon as you nerf one skill, the next-most-powerful skill suddenly becomes OP.

But the overall fact is that you seem to want the game to be something that it's not... indeed, something it can't be, because of its nature as an MMO. This isn't Skyrim, and it shouldn't try to be Skyrim. Take the game for what it is, and look at how to improve it from that angle.

HarbingerOf wrote: »

I played ES games since Daggerfall. It's Skyrim that doesn't smell like an ES game

Yeah... I'm always a bit baffled when people tout Skyrim as the example of a "traditional" TES game.
Most baffling is "Take out classes! That will make this feel more like TES!" and I'm like "...every TES game until Skyrim had classes."

IMO, liking Skyrim is great. It was a fun game. But it was very much the least TES of all the big, main TES games in the series. "Traditional" is something like Morrowind, where you're given vague directions on how to do a thing and then sent out into the world to figure it out yourself. Or like Daggerfall, where every faction you join affects your status with other related factions. Expansive worlds where your choices actually mattered. Daggerfall had six endings to the main quest, all depending on your choices.

I loved Skyrim, and I'd easily say it's my second favorite in the series (because Morrowind is bae). But touted as an example of what "TES" is? Nah. Not so much.

Someone's been hanging with Inigo...

Darkstorne wrote: »

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love for the grind to be completely gone. I'd love to kill monsters and they disappear for long enough so that it feels like I've accomplished something. Maybe the respawn timer could be 20 minutes, but the xp could be insanely higher to justify this, along with increased difficulty, giving me incentive to go on to new areas that I've never been once I've cleared the zombie spawn that I've been grinding for the past 10000 kills (at least ESO players are better prepared for the Zombie apocalypse).

You'll get a lot of flak for that essay, but you're right. You'll also get a lot of players repeating "But it's an MMO!!!1!!1" As though there's only one possible way an MMO can work, and constant grinding at every turn is synonymous with the genre.

Sadly, the team that launched this game either had little to no ambition and imagination, or the people in charge had none of it and forced everyone else to adhere to strict MMO tradition with a whip at their backs. Since launch (heck, even before launch, remember when first person combat wasn't going to be a thing?) ZOS have been inspired by the feedback to start using their imagination and create an MMO that actually embraces the strength of TES. One Tamriel is only the most recent of those big changes to the core game that has done wonders for it in creating a better identity in the MMO crowd.

Had this game been developed AFTER Destiny, I get the feeling grinding really wouldn't be a thing. At least for 1-50. Destiny proved two things:

1. Grinding and levelling doesn't have to be tied to progression. 20 is the max level, and then it's all about gear and skill builds.
2. Exterior environments don't have to be swarming with other players. They can be sparse and lonely to suit the atmosphere, keeping social activities to town hubs and group content.

Both of those concepts would fit perfectly with a TES MMO. Imagine if 1-50 happened as fast as it does in Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind - new skills regularly, building and shaping your character over a week or two instead of multiple months. Content levels to you, so after 50 it's all about gear and CP, and there's still all of Tamriel to explore. I think some kind of grind like that is important, but not the core levelling experience that hinders character growth and builds when it occurs so slowly.

The sparser open world would also mean locations like dungeons could be mostly solo experiences. Meaning no constantly respawning enemies, and dungeon designs that could focus more on atmosphere than racing through to keep up with other players and hoping the boss isn't already dead. There's still a place for public dungeons, and overworld events like world bosses and dolmens that could phase into populated areas of the map. But keeping phases mostly solo would allow for fewer enemies, with more exp, and those unique TES moments like gazing across open grasslands or mountain vistas without seeing conveniently placed enemies 30 yards apart from another, chilling out as nothing more than exp pinatas rather than being part of a living world.

I honestly do believe ZOS have learned from their early mistakes though. And even though it's far too late to correct some of these core gameplay issues in ESO, one day they'll get another shot at making a TES MMO from the ground up, and I will be extremely excited to see what they can do with everything they've learned about their majority playerbase of TES fans.

rofl 1t is good? wow 1t is *** horrible. sure max lvl cp users aint gonna have issues. but i can guarantee you any lowbie cpers are having issues with 1t. also only certain mobs scale with you in single player games. take skyrim there are a hell of a lot of creatures you not defeating at lvl 1. or lvl 5 or lvl 10 for that matter. also tamriel isnt some forsaken desert, it suppose to have thriving populace, in fact eso in just the areas in game you can access atm have fewer then half the towns that exist in arena. also the npc populace of the single players are vastly small for a real populace. there what average of 1-2000 named characters in single player games? that what a single platoon of soldiers.

AzuraKin wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love for the grind to be completely gone. I'd love to kill monsters and they disappear for long enough so that it feels like I've accomplished something. Maybe the respawn timer could be 20 minutes, but the xp could be insanely higher to justify this, along with increased difficulty, giving me incentive to go on to new areas that I've never been once I've cleared the zombie spawn that I've been grinding for the past 10000 kills (at least ESO players are better prepared for the Zombie apocalypse).

You'll get a lot of flak for that essay, but you're right. You'll also get a lot of players repeating "But it's an MMO!!!1!!1" As though there's only one possible way an MMO can work, and constant grinding at every turn is synonymous with the genre.

Sadly, the team that launched this game either had little to no ambition and imagination, or the people in charge had none of it and forced everyone else to adhere to strict MMO tradition with a whip at their backs. Since launch (heck, even before launch, remember when first person combat wasn't going to be a thing?) ZOS have been inspired by the feedback to start using their imagination and create an MMO that actually embraces the strength of TES. One Tamriel is only the most recent of those big changes to the core game that has done wonders for it in creating a better identity in the MMO crowd.

Had this game been developed AFTER Destiny, I get the feeling grinding really wouldn't be a thing. At least for 1-50. Destiny proved two things:

1. Grinding and levelling doesn't have to be tied to progression. 20 is the max level, and then it's all about gear and skill builds.
2. Exterior environments don't have to be swarming with other players. They can be sparse and lonely to suit the atmosphere, keeping social activities to town hubs and group content.

Both of those concepts would fit perfectly with a TES MMO. Imagine if 1-50 happened as fast as it does in Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind - new skills regularly, building and shaping your character over a week or two instead of multiple months. Content levels to you, so after 50 it's all about gear and CP, and there's still all of Tamriel to explore. I think some kind of grind like that is important, but not the core levelling experience that hinders character growth and builds when it occurs so slowly.

The sparser open world would also mean locations like dungeons could be mostly solo experiences. Meaning no constantly respawning enemies, and dungeon designs that could focus more on atmosphere than racing through to keep up with other players and hoping the boss isn't already dead. There's still a place for public dungeons, and overworld events like world bosses and dolmens that could phase into populated areas of the map. But keeping phases mostly solo would allow for fewer enemies, with more exp, and those unique TES moments like gazing across open grasslands or mountain vistas without seeing conveniently placed enemies 30 yards apart from another, chilling out as nothing more than exp pinatas rather than being part of a living world.

I honestly do believe ZOS have learned from their early mistakes though. And even though it's far too late to correct some of these core gameplay issues in ESO, one day they'll get another shot at making a TES MMO from the ground up, and I will be extremely excited to see what they can do with everything they've learned about their majority playerbase of TES fans.

rofl 1t is good? wow 1t is *** horrible. sure max lvl cp users aint gonna have issues. but i can guarantee you any lowbie cpers are having issues with 1t. also only certain mobs scale with you in single player games. take skyrim there are a hell of a lot of creatures you not defeating at lvl 1. or lvl 5 or lvl 10 for that matter. also tamriel isnt some forsaken desert, it suppose to have thriving populace, in fact eso in just the areas in game you can access atm have fewer then half the towns that exist in arena. also the npc populace of the single players are vastly small for a real populace. there what average of 1-2000 named characters in single player games? that what a single platoon of soldiers.

*Shrug* Zero CP player here and doing just fine. Four characters ranging from level 14 to 45. Love the freedom. I could never commit to the game before because the linear progression and exploration was killing my enjoyment.

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

...Dude. Do you realize how bad a 20-minute respawn timer would be in a multiplayer game? How quickly people would exploit that to get the mobs right when they pop? How few casual players would ever get to kill anything at all, because all the vets are sweeping through the area, grinding mobs? And what about mobs that drop materials? Would each wolf carry 30 pieces of leather? What about the crafters who just don't get to their mobs on time? No.... a 20-minute spawn timer is just a bad, bad idea.

Easily solved by solo phasing, or highly infrequent phasing with other players. Keep dolmens and world boss areas as group phase locations, as well as group dungeons, but make the vast majority of dungeons and exterior environments solo experiences. That way mobs can be much more spaced out, designed to interact with and patrol the world instead of staying fixed to their spots 30 yards away from each other as exp pinatas. Rather than having zones swarming with mobs everywhere you look, they could far less common if there are no players to compete with for exp, and that way they could also provide a lot more exp per kill. The game could integrate spaces where scenery isn't interrupted by mobs, and you won't keep seeing packs of them respawn under your nose.

That's (sort of) the approach Destiny took. Not solo phasing, but encountering players outside of the city hub is much rarer than in traditional MMOs. It builds a much more spacious atmosphere, boosts immersion when you're questing (so when that quest NPC acts like you're the only adventurer around, you could believe him for once), and all without killing the social aspects of MMOs since they're found in cities and group dungeons/PVP zones.

It amazes me the number of people who think MMO must mean a game swarming with players at every turn.

A fair point I legitimately didn't think of, since I've never been in an MMO that did that. Not sure why it "amazes you" when the solution is a bit outside the box for people who've never encountered the concept before. XD

That said... I don't think I'd like that approach at all. I enjoy fighting alongside other people... the natural flow of when you're doing a "20 bear butts" quest and you organically join up with another person doing the same quest. Or when you're clearing a delve and join up with other players clearing the same delve to fight the boss together... It's fun to see how your abilities match up with other randos, and I've met a couple people now on my Friends list that way. You can't get that with solo phasing. *shrug*

Then again, I don't grind... I quest, because I'm a PvE roleplayer who couldn't give two alits whether my build is optimized. I'm clearly looking for a different experience than you and the OP.

It'll come down to preference, but I think building the exploration and quest structure of the game to better fit solo play, and the group instances/dolmens/world bosses etc to better fit group play, would be ideal. I think they've got the grouping down just great in ESO (except for mass scale PVP where performance gives way), but the solo structure would be so much better if it was mostly, well, solo. I hate getting to the end of a dungeon and having to wait for the boss to respawn. I hate others playing stealing chests when I'm fighting the mobs guarding one. I hate that enemies are scattered all across the map in every single direction, and every village you come across is either under attack, under occupation, or literally a ghost town.

Seems like ESO was the perfect opportunity to blend the strengths of the series' solo play with the strengths of MMO group play, and they focused too hard on group play and were burned for that at launch.

Darkstorne wrote: »

AzuraKin wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

I would love for the grind to be completely gone. I'd love to kill monsters and they disappear for long enough so that it feels like I've accomplished something. Maybe the respawn timer could be 20 minutes, but the xp could be insanely higher to justify this, along with increased difficulty, giving me incentive to go on to new areas that I've never been once I've cleared the zombie spawn that I've been grinding for the past 10000 kills (at least ESO players are better prepared for the Zombie apocalypse).

You'll get a lot of flak for that essay, but you're right. You'll also get a lot of players repeating "But it's an MMO!!!1!!1" As though there's only one possible way an MMO can work, and constant grinding at every turn is synonymous with the genre.

Sadly, the team that launched this game either had little to no ambition and imagination, or the people in charge had none of it and forced everyone else to adhere to strict MMO tradition with a whip at their backs. Since launch (heck, even before launch, remember when first person combat wasn't going to be a thing?) ZOS have been inspired by the feedback to start using their imagination and create an MMO that actually embraces the strength of TES. One Tamriel is only the most recent of those big changes to the core game that has done wonders for it in creating a better identity in the MMO crowd.

Had this game been developed AFTER Destiny, I get the feeling grinding really wouldn't be a thing. At least for 1-50. Destiny proved two things:

1. Grinding and levelling doesn't have to be tied to progression. 20 is the max level, and then it's all about gear and skill builds.
2. Exterior environments don't have to be swarming with other players. They can be sparse and lonely to suit the atmosphere, keeping social activities to town hubs and group content.

Both of those concepts would fit perfectly with a TES MMO. Imagine if 1-50 happened as fast as it does in Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind - new skills regularly, building and shaping your character over a week or two instead of multiple months. Content levels to you, so after 50 it's all about gear and CP, and there's still all of Tamriel to explore. I think some kind of grind like that is important, but not the core levelling experience that hinders character growth and builds when it occurs so slowly.

The sparser open world would also mean locations like dungeons could be mostly solo experiences. Meaning no constantly respawning enemies, and dungeon designs that could focus more on atmosphere than racing through to keep up with other players and hoping the boss isn't already dead. There's still a place for public dungeons, and overworld events like world bosses and dolmens that could phase into populated areas of the map. But keeping phases mostly solo would allow for fewer enemies, with more exp, and those unique TES moments like gazing across open grasslands or mountain vistas without seeing conveniently placed enemies 30 yards apart from another, chilling out as nothing more than exp pinatas rather than being part of a living world.

I honestly do believe ZOS have learned from their early mistakes though. And even though it's far too late to correct some of these core gameplay issues in ESO, one day they'll get another shot at making a TES MMO from the ground up, and I will be extremely excited to see what they can do with everything they've learned about their majority playerbase of TES fans.

rofl 1t is good? wow 1t is *** horrible. sure max lvl cp users aint gonna have issues. but i can guarantee you any lowbie cpers are having issues with 1t. also only certain mobs scale with you in single player games. take skyrim there are a hell of a lot of creatures you not defeating at lvl 1. or lvl 5 or lvl 10 for that matter. also tamriel isnt some forsaken desert, it suppose to have thriving populace, in fact eso in just the areas in game you can access atm have fewer then half the towns that exist in arena. also the npc populace of the single players are vastly small for a real populace. there what average of 1-2000 named characters in single player games? that what a single platoon of soldiers.

*Shrug* Zero CP player here and doing just fine. Four characters ranging from level 14 to 45. Love the freedom. I could never commit to the game before because the linear progression and exploration was killing my enjoyment.

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

BlackSparrow wrote: »

...Dude. Do you realize how bad a 20-minute respawn timer would be in a multiplayer game? How quickly people would exploit that to get the mobs right when they pop? How few casual players would ever get to kill anything at all, because all the vets are sweeping through the area, grinding mobs? And what about mobs that drop materials? Would each wolf carry 30 pieces of leather? What about the crafters who just don't get to their mobs on time? No.... a 20-minute spawn timer is just a bad, bad idea.

Easily solved by solo phasing, or highly infrequent phasing with other players. Keep dolmens and world boss areas as group phase locations, as well as group dungeons, but make the vast majority of dungeons and exterior environments solo experiences. That way mobs can be much more spaced out, designed to interact with and patrol the world instead of staying fixed to their spots 30 yards away from each other as exp pinatas. Rather than having zones swarming with mobs everywhere you look, they could far less common if there are no players to compete with for exp, and that way they could also provide a lot more exp per kill. The game could integrate spaces where scenery isn't interrupted by mobs, and you won't keep seeing packs of them respawn under your nose.

That's (sort of) the approach Destiny took. Not solo phasing, but encountering players outside of the city hub is much rarer than in traditional MMOs. It builds a much more spacious atmosphere, boosts immersion when you're questing (so when that quest NPC acts like you're the only adventurer around, you could believe him for once), and all without killing the social aspects of MMOs since they're found in cities and group dungeons/PVP zones.

It amazes me the number of people who think MMO must mean a game swarming with players at every turn.

A fair point I legitimately didn't think of, since I've never been in an MMO that did that. Not sure why it "amazes you" when the solution is a bit outside the box for people who've never encountered the concept before. XD

That said... I don't think I'd like that approach at all. I enjoy fighting alongside other people... the natural flow of when you're doing a "20 bear butts" quest and you organically join up with another person doing the same quest. Or when you're clearing a delve and join up with other players clearing the same delve to fight the boss together... It's fun to see how your abilities match up with other randos, and I've met a couple people now on my Friends list that way. You can't get that with solo phasing. *shrug*

Then again, I don't grind... I quest, because I'm a PvE roleplayer who couldn't give two alits whether my build is optimized. I'm clearly looking for a different experience than you and the OP.

It'll come down to preference, but I think building the exploration and quest structure of the game to better fit solo play, and the group instances/dolmens/world bosses etc to better fit group play, would be ideal. I think they've got the grouping down just great in ESO (except for mass scale PVP where performance gives way), but the solo structure would be so much better if it was mostly, well, solo. I hate getting to the end of a dungeon and having to wait for the boss to respawn. I hate others playing stealing chests when I'm fighting the mobs guarding one. I hate that enemies are scattered all across the map in every single direction, and every village you come across is either under attack, under occupation, or literally a ghost town.

Seems like ESO was the perfect opportunity to blend the strengths of the series' solo play with the strengths of MMO group play, and they focused too hard on group play and were burned for that at launch.

actually 1t would lack immersion to a pve story driven player by allowing them to do differing zones in any order. the story wouldnt make sense. each of the 3 aliances have opposing stories, each zone is built on the story of the previous zone. if you want immersion, 1t ruined that.

also pre-1t was very much built for exploration and questing. i know, i lvled 8 toons prior to 1t through questing.

TL; DR

ESO isn't supposed to be Skyrim. In fact, Skyrim sucked bawlz. Yes, I said it.

ESO is a good balance, but sadly ZOS is too stupid to allow the game to flourish other than through the crown store. In doing so, ZOS has essentially created World of Warcraft II, [or any other generic MMO].

isailandshootub17_ESO wrote: »

Do you remember the feeling of sneaking into a necromancer's tower to recover books for the College of Winterhold with your sneaky archer?

The best part about the OP is the assumption that everyone plays a Sneaky Archer in Skyrim (I did... and I bet you did, too).

As for the rest, I agree with some of your points. In particular, the 'guardrail to guardrail' approach to balance provides more uncertainty and instability than necessary -- Wrobel and team don't tweak, they up-end.

I disagree with much else. For example, the 'many useless sets' point is accurate, but I think that's a byproduct of ZOS's determination to allow niche builds by offering a bazilllion potential gear combinations. As a build-tweaker, I love that, and I accept that some of those sets will be a lot better than others.

Mostly, though, I'd suggest you focus. Feedback is useless when delivered via shotgun. "Here are twenty mostly unrelated points delivered with passion" is more venting than feedback (as you acknowledge when you describe it as a rant).

AuldWolf wrote: »

@danno8

There are hundreds of mods to solve that exact problem, and a few of them are far superior than anything that's been in a Bethesda game. That's the benefit of a single player/co-op game: Mods. With mods, you can change anything you dislike. And with mods, Oblivion's gameplay can become far, far superior to what's in Fallout 4's, Skyrim's, or ESO's vanilla state.

@AuldWolf And there are Skyrim mods that let you level like Oblivion or all kinds of different ways.

If you want to talk about mods, then everything is on the table.

The person I was responding to said "post arena/pre Skyrim levelling was near perfect." And I was pointing out that it had some pretty big flaws as well.

Players just are looking for a MMO that is not equal to others, not a artificial world (do not confuse with virtual world), they looking for realism, immersion, then they compare eso with skyrim, then they are disapointed. Not because skyrim is better than eso, but because eso is equal to others mmo.

AzuraKin wrote: »

rofl easily 70% maybe even more of the fun to be had in an elder scroll game was nothing but figuring out how you were gonna lvl up your character. *** think about it you can beat the game without ever lvling up if you wanted to. the quests were not all that difficult. the grind to lvling was the best part of elder scrolls. you actually felt like a warrior. skyrim, eso, you dont feel like a warrior in training. rather you feel like some kid the gods picked up tossed on some enchanted armor and said hey go slay the mighty dragon who cannot hurt you in this magic armor.

I agree. Other players' ideas of fun and how they experience the game are wrong.

I think people have a perfectly valid point in thinking a game should not necessarily require a spreadsheet to level effectively.

Because Skyrim is where the Nords live, Nords dont shower and there isnt many Nords in TESO. That's why.