pieratsos wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

What if i told you that basically everything you pointed out is what the OP said.
I mean feel free to disagree. But at least say something different.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

40k isn't that impressive anymore, and that's with raid debuff sets like NMG which no groups run anymore since stam is dead.

On paper the class is only favored in cleave fights. Yet it loses to all other DPS class/role combos in the game. That's not much of a favor.

PotL is a great skill on paper, but half of it (Minor Fracture) is wasted since efficient trial groups don't run stam. This means healers running Minor Breach poisons do everything a Stamplar could bring, without sacrificing 10-20k DPS.

Any stam build not using vMA weapons isn't even remotely worth mentioning, and Stamplar still loses to Stamblade, which is already leagues behind StamDK or Stamsorc.

Explain how every trial has more time spent on AoE trash pulls where aoe caps come into account, already a fight that does not favor Stamplars due to absolutely 0 class input on radius bound damage.

The only thing unique about Stamplar is that it holds the #1 spot for being subpar. It has, by far the worst DPS potential in the game at the moment with nothing unique *AND* valuable in the current state of the meta.

1. I didnt say 40k;) I said 40k+
2. In single Target fights they definitely parse lower no question, but not in AoE. In Mixed fights they perform on par.
3. PoTL is part of my rotation and I swap cancel it so it does not sacrifice dps.
4. Stamplar loses to stamblade is fights with no adds...but there arent many of those in game.
5. Your AoE comment I dont even understand...
6. Im sorrry you feel that way Gil, I did too when I didnt properly play one..

Ehm.... wanna run that by me again?

The fact is we live in two very different worlds of the game, and that's fine. I deal with efficiency, making the meta, pushing the limits. Stamplar is in the gutter right now in those regards, and there's not one redeeming quality to remove it in those regards.

If we're talking run of the mill setups for players to enjoy that don't want to spend months honing themselves and putting themselves to the test, then sure Stamplar is fine. It's brainless and self sufficient with Repentance and great self healing. But at the end of the day, those builds can't come play with the big kids at recess in vMoL HM or competition.

I'm sorry but your references for where Stamplar wins and loses hold no credibility with me or anyone in the end game community for min maxing, and it's unfortunate. I'd love for Stamplar to be able do something unique *and* efficient, but it's just not there at the moment. Here's hoping update 13 brings some love to em.

? What does your vMA score have to do with how good or bad the class is? Also Ive tried a stamplar in vMoL HM, it does amazing damage, especially in HM vMoL since you have at least 2 adds up throughout majority of the fight.

Honey dearest keep your credibility, Id never ever try to impress the "Founder and guild lead of The Order of Mundus. Old member of Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. He who made DK's fear being out parsed."

My gosh I didnt realize you were such a big deal. My apologies!!!
;);)

@hedna123b14_ESO

I think that @Gilliamtherogue point was quite obviously not a straight up 'look how great I am', but a response to the suggestion (bold in the post he quoted) that he couldn't offer an input because he 'doesn't play the class properly' - which is obviously both inane and incorrect.

I said this above alreadt, but if you cant deliver damagr on a stamplar that is on par in a mixed aoe fight then you do not know how to play the class well...that was my point and I stand by it...

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

40k isn't that impressive anymore, and that's with raid debuff sets like NMG which no groups run anymore since stam is dead.

On paper the class is only favored in cleave fights. Yet it loses to all other DPS class/role combos in the game. That's not much of a favor.

PotL is a great skill on paper, but half of it (Minor Fracture) is wasted since efficient trial groups don't run stam. This means healers running Minor Breach poisons do everything a Stamplar could bring, without sacrificing 10-20k DPS.

Any stam build not using vMA weapons isn't even remotely worth mentioning, and Stamplar still loses to Stamblade, which is already leagues behind StamDK or Stamsorc.

Explain how every trial has more time spent on AoE trash pulls where aoe caps come into account, already a fight that does not favor Stamplars due to absolutely 0 class input on radius bound damage.

The only thing unique about Stamplar is that it holds the #1 spot for being subpar. It has, by far the worst DPS potential in the game at the moment with nothing unique *AND* valuable in the current state of the meta.

1. I didnt say 40k;) I said 40k+
2. In single Target fights they definitely parse lower no question, but not in AoE. In Mixed fights they perform on par.
3. PoTL is part of my rotation and I swap cancel it so it does not sacrifice dps.
4. Stamplar loses to stamblade is fights with no adds...but there arent many of those in game.
5. Your AoE comment I dont even understand...
6. Im sorrry you feel that way Gil, I did too when I didnt properly play one..

Ehm.... wanna run that by me again?

The fact is we live in two very different worlds of the game, and that's fine. I deal with efficiency, making the meta, pushing the limits. Stamplar is in the gutter right now in those regards, and there's not one redeeming quality to remove it in those regards.

If we're talking run of the mill setups for players to enjoy that don't want to spend months honing themselves and putting themselves to the test, then sure Stamplar is fine. It's brainless and self sufficient with Repentance and great self healing. But at the end of the day, those builds can't come play with the big kids at recess in vMoL HM or competition.

I'm sorry but your references for where Stamplar wins and loses hold no credibility with me or anyone in the end game community for min maxing, and it's unfortunate. I'd love for Stamplar to be able do something unique *and* efficient, but it's just not there at the moment. Here's hoping update 13 brings some love to em.

? What does your vMA score have to do with how good or bad the class is? Also Ive tried a stamplar in vMoL HM, it does amazing damage, especially in HM vMoL since you have at least 2 adds up throughout majority of the fight.

Honey dearest keep your credibility, Id never ever try to impress the "Founder and guild lead of The Order of Mundus. Old member of Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. He who made DK's fear being out parsed."

My gosh I didnt realize you were such a big deal. My apologies!!!
;);)

@hedna123b14_ESO

I think that @Gilliamtherogue point was quite obviously not a straight up 'look how great I am', but a response to the suggestion (bold in the post he quoted) that he couldn't offer an input because he 'doesn't play the class properly' - which is obviously both inane and incorrect.

I said this above alreadt, but if you cant deliver damagr on a stamplar that is on par in a mixed aoe fight then you do not know how to play the class well...that was my point and I stand by it...

You really shouldn't.

Edit: Long time stamplar (like, since January '15). My biggest problem at the level I'm at (no HM trials, but vet dungeons soloed and vMA leaderboard a few times) is honestly just no access to major brutality outside gimmicky weapon lines or expensive potions.

To put it in perspective; stam sorcs get a MB buff that also gives them a marvelous self heal (on par or exceeding vigor...) that also increases their weapon and spell damage through a passive. Stamiknights get a passive that when they activate their MB buff, not only does it grant every person on their team MB and Major Sorcery, but also minor brutality as well. This translates to 25% damage increase. As if that wasn't enough, they also get 5% of their max stam back from activating it. Stamblades get an ability that does disease damage, is an AWESOME AoE, and gives them major brutality (even though they are indeed the weakest of the three examples). That ability existing on their bar also gives them more healing done/recieved (unsure which, it hardly matters), max magicka bonus, and of course activating it returns ult every four seconds.

Templars can use rally and gimp themselves on PvE damage (my situation), or go dual wield and take up a front bar slot for a 20 second source of major brutality. With nothing else. Literally nothing else.

Just my two cents.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

40k isn't that impressive anymore, and that's with raid debuff sets like NMG which no groups run anymore since stam is dead.

On paper the class is only favored in cleave fights. Yet it loses to all other DPS class/role combos in the game. That's not much of a favor.

PotL is a great skill on paper, but half of it (Minor Fracture) is wasted since efficient trial groups don't run stam. This means healers running Minor Breach poisons do everything a Stamplar could bring, without sacrificing 10-20k DPS.

Any stam build not using vMA weapons isn't even remotely worth mentioning, and Stamplar still loses to Stamblade, which is already leagues behind StamDK or Stamsorc.

Explain how every trial has more time spent on AoE trash pulls where aoe caps come into account, already a fight that does not favor Stamplars due to absolutely 0 class input on radius bound damage.

The only thing unique about Stamplar is that it holds the #1 spot for being subpar. It has, by far the worst DPS potential in the game at the moment with nothing unique *AND* valuable in the current state of the meta.

1. I didnt say 40k;) I said 40k+
2. In single Target fights they definitely parse lower no question, but not in AoE. In Mixed fights they perform on par.
3. PoTL is part of my rotation and I swap cancel it so it does not sacrifice dps.
4. Stamplar loses to stamblade is fights with no adds...but there arent many of those in game.
5. Your AoE comment I dont even understand...
6. Im sorrry you feel that way Gil, I did too when I didnt properly play one..

Ehm.... wanna run that by me again?

The fact is we live in two very different worlds of the game, and that's fine. I deal with efficiency, making the meta, pushing the limits. Stamplar is in the gutter right now in those regards, and there's not one redeeming quality to remove it in those regards.

If we're talking run of the mill setups for players to enjoy that don't want to spend months honing themselves and putting themselves to the test, then sure Stamplar is fine. It's brainless and self sufficient with Repentance and great self healing. But at the end of the day, those builds can't come play with the big kids at recess in vMoL HM or competition.

I'm sorry but your references for where Stamplar wins and loses hold no credibility with me or anyone in the end game community for min maxing, and it's unfortunate. I'd love for Stamplar to be able do something unique *and* efficient, but it's just not there at the moment. Here's hoping update 13 brings some love to em.

? What does your vMA score have to do with how good or bad the class is? Also Ive tried a stamplar in vMoL HM, it does amazing damage, especially in HM vMoL since you have at least 2 adds up throughout majority of the fight.

Honey dearest keep your credibility, Id never ever try to impress the "Founder and guild lead of The Order of Mundus. Old member of Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. He who made DK's fear being out parsed."

My gosh I didnt realize you were such a big deal. My apologies!!!
;);)

@hedna123b14_ESO

I think that @Gilliamtherogue point was quite obviously not a straight up 'look how great I am', but a response to the suggestion (bold in the post he quoted) that he couldn't offer an input because he 'doesn't play the class properly' - which is obviously both inane and incorrect.

I said this above alreadt, but if you cant deliver damagr on a stamplar that is on par in a mixed aoe fight then you do not know how to play the class well...that was my point and I stand by it...

You really shouldn't.

Edit: Long time stamplar (like, since January '15). My biggest problem at the level I'm at (no HM trials, but vet dungeons soloed and vMA leaderboard a few times) is honestly just no access to major brutality outside gimmicky weapon lines or expensive potions.

To put it in perspective; stam sorcs get a MB buff that also gives them a marvelous self heal (on par or exceeding vigor...) that also increases their weapon and spell damage through a passive. Stamiknights get a passive that when they activate their MB buff, not only does it grant every person on their team MB and Major Sorcery, but also minor brutality as well. This translates to 25% damage increase. As if that wasn't enough, they also get 5% of their max stam back from activating it. Stamblades get an ability that does disease damage, is an AWESOME AoE, and gives them major brutality (even though they are indeed the weakest of the three examples). That ability existing on their bar also gives them more healing done/recieved (unsure which, it hardly matters), max magicka bonus, and of course activating it returns ult every four seconds.

Templars can use rally and gimp themselves on PvE damage (my situation), or go dual wield and take up a front bar slot for a 20 second source of major brutality. With nothing else. Literally nothing else.

Just my two cents.

In competitive PvE potions are required... Sustain isnt an issue and 2H in PvE isnt currently a thing...

Since you are a fan of asking othere to reread, please reread where I said "where I'm at". I'm not talking about endgame HM trials. I'm talking about general class equality.

Spearshard wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

CylindricalBox wrote: »

With a prospective balance patch coming sometime in the near future, I've outlined some issues with Stamina Templar in this post, providing suggestions for improvement throughout (General Discussion section since this is very broad). While a Stamina Templar can certainly complete any and all content in this game, the class has the lowest single-target and AOE PVE DPS out of any spec, Magicka or Stamina. The class also struggles in PVP due to its limited utility and poor sustain.

#1 – Poor Active Skills
In terms of skills, Templar's options are too limited, and what little the class has is overshadowed by the other classes in almost every sense. The root of the problem is this: Templar just doesn't have enough by way of in-class Stamina utility. Just look at the class abilities you'll find on a typical end-game PVE Stamina DPS build's bars, sorted below by class:

Nightblade

1. Killer's Blade
2. Relentless Focus
3. Surprise Attack
4. Siphoning Attacks
5. Incapacitating Strike
6. Veil of Blades (some trials only)

Dragonknight

1. Venomous Claw
2. Noxious Breath
3. Flames of Oblivion
4. Reflective Scale (Maelstrom only)
5. Igneous Weapons (maybe, if you're a cheap-o)
6. Standard of Might
7. Corrosive Armor (Maelstrom only)

Sorcerer

1. Bound Armaments
2. Dark Deal
3. Hurricane
4. Critical Surge
5. Overload (depending on the content)
6. Negate Magic (either morph)

Templar

1. Biting Jabs
2. Power of the Light
3. Repentance
4. Solar Prison (some trials only)

So, the Stamina Templar really only has three in-class abilities that are worth slotting for most PVE scenarios: Biting Jabs, Power of the Light and Repentance. While there are plenty of universal skills to fill the remaining 8 or 9 slots, it's problematic that so many class skills are simply not useful in any content. Unfortunately, it's kind of the same story for PVP – the other classes just have more viable skills to choose from. Check it out:

Nightblade

1. Killer's Blade
2. Ambush
3. Relentless Focus
4. Shadowy Disguise
5. Surprise Attack
6. Aspect of Terror
7. Shadow Image
8. Siphoning Attacks
9. Incapacitating Strike

Dragonknight

1. Venomous Claw
2. Noxious Breath
3. Volatile Armor
4. Reflective Scale
5. Igneous Shield
6. Fossilize
7. Standard of Might
8. Corrosive Armor

Sorcerer

1. Bound Armaments
2. Dark Deal
3. Daedric Mines (Overload bar only)
4. Hurricane
5. Critical Surge
6. Streak
7. Overload
8. Negate Magic

Templar

1. Biting Jabs
2. Binding Javelin
3. Repentance
4. Extended Ritual
5. Restoring Focus

Build diversity, especially viable weapon types in PVP, is seriously limited by how few in-class options Templar offers. Templar is the only class that must rely on outside sources for Major Sorcery and Major Brutality. And it goes much further than missing these fundamental buffs, as outlined by this ability-by-ability breakdown, sorted by class tree:

Aedric Spear

• Radial Sweep
  • In PVP, this used to have a place in the Stamina Templar's toolkit, particularly the Crescent Sweep morph. However, with the change of Dawnbreaker to Physical Damage and the addition of Berserker Strike and Shield Wall, this ultimate is completely obsolete.
  • It was never viable for PVE.
• Biting Jabs
  • It's sort of the same story for PVP and PVE with this ability, and I've written an entire section below on why this ability is poor.
  • To summarize, this skill's single-target damage is lower than any other single-target spammable, likely because it's an AOE ability. And yet, its damage as an AOE is substandard, likely because it's designed as a single-target spammable. So, it's sort of stuck in this catch-22. It's fair to say an ability with great single-target damage shouldn't have great AOE damage, and an AOE skill shouldn't excel in single-target DPS. A skill that melds these two will always be difficult to balance, and while Biting Jabs was decent in days past, it definitely falls short in its current state. For a more detailed breakdown, check out the section on Biting Jabs, outlined in point #3 below.
• Binding Javelin
  • For some PVP builds, this is a decent ranged stun that, for some reason, deals melee damage. The cost is far too high, almost on par with Shuffle. Reduce the cost and make this ability deal something other than melee damage.
  • Irrelevant for PVE.
• Focused Charge
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability.
• Spear Shards
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability.
• Sun Shield
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE.

Dawn's Wrath

• Nova
  • Not viable for PVP.
  • This ultimate is useful in trials only for the damage reduction. It really has no place anywhere else. The cost is prohibitively high for use outside of PVE, and the damage is far too low. It feels like this ability was completely balanced around the admittedly powerful Gravity Crush/Supernova instead of the other way around, seriously limiting its usefulness when there's no one around to fumble with that awkward synergy.
• Sun Fire
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability. Perhaps give this a Stamina morph, similar to Venomous Claw?
• Solar Flare
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability. Solar Barrage is rarely used, a potential Stamina morph?
• Power of the Light
  • Not viable for PVP.
  • This is a good skill to work into a PVE DPS build. Deals somewhere around 3,000 self-buffed, single-target DPS in sustained fights, so it's not bad.
• Eclipse
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, though it used to have some incredibly entertaining bugs.
• Radiant Destruction
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability. This is a post about Stamina Templar. SELF. CONTROL. This is a post about Stamina Templar.

Restoring Light

• Rite of Passage
  • This... this ultimate is not viable in any content. We have plenty of area healing that doesn't require the caster to stand in place for the entire duration. Seriously, give this skill some utility. Since Templar is apparently all about placing auras and building houses, perhaps make this summon an area of protection that provides rotating buffs and debuff?
• Rushed Ceremony
  • Not viable for PVP or PVE, as this is a Magicka ability.
• Healing Ritual
  • This ability suffers from the same problems as Rite of Passage. Grand Healing completely outclasses this skill for proactive healing. Reactionary heals, or in other words, burst heals, cannot have a a long cast time (or a cast time at all) lest they become useless. Plus, Breath of Life already fills the role of a burst heal, and though it only targets two players, it's an instant cast with a much longer range. I know this skill is unrelated to Stamina Templar in its current state, but please rework this ability completely.
• Repentance
  • This is an okay sustain skill. The resources this skill provides are, simply put, not as good as the passive sustain from Siphoning Attacks, Battle Roar, and Helping Hands and the burst Stamina from Dark Deal. See section #2 for more details.
• Extended Ritual
  • This skill is incredibly powerful for survivability in PVP, perhaps too strong, but it doesn't grant the same flexibility the other classes have. It's not a weak ability by any measure, but it's sort of a rock-paper-scissors skill that doesn't warrant itself to skillful use. Stamina Sorcerers can take advantage of their mobility in a multitude of ways, engaging and disengaging almost at will, a Shadow-Image-teleporting Nightblade likewise. By contrast, there's really only one way to use Cleansing Ritual, which is irksome. The most complicated part about cleansing is pushing the button when bad things show up on your debuff tracker. This is definitely a picky point, because this is by far and away the best Templar skill for PVP.
  • Not viable for PVE.
• Restoring Focus
  • This is a good ability for PVP. It provides the standard Major armor buffs, and extra damage mitigation and healing from the Minor buffs are nice. Why does this have to be a placeable aura rather than a self-buff like every other skill of its type?
  • Not really needed for PVE.

I'd rather not delve into the class' passive skills because it's much of the same story. But even the valuable ones, like Balanced Warrior (6% Weapon Damage), are outclassed by passives like Nightblade's Pressure Points (3% Weapon Critical per Assassination ability on bar = huge), Sorcerer's Energized (5% more Physical Damage) and Expert Mage (2% Weapon Damage per Sorcerer ability slotted), and Dragonknight's Mountain's Blessing (5% Weapon Damage in the form of Minor Brutality and 3 Ultimate in parallel with Helping Hands' 5% Stamina return). Another decent Templar passive, Restoring Spirit (4% Magicka, Stamina, and Ultimate cost reduction), is a bit of a joke when compared to Sorcerer's Power Stone (15% Ultimate cost reduction) and Unholy Knowledge (5% Magicka and Stamina cost reduction)...

#2 – Outclassed in Every Way
In terms of sustain, compare the mechanics of Templar's Repentance to the equivalent abilities of the other classes. Repentance is a free cast, unlike Sorcerer's Dark Deal, Dragonknight's Helping Hands and Battle Roar, and Nightblade's Siphoning Attacks. However, this is not as advantageous as it may seem, as Repentance is limited to work only on nearby corpses no more than once, while the others convert Magicka or Ultimate, resources that regenerate automatically and indefinitely, into Stamina. This makes Repentance subpar at best unless there's a constant stream of fodder dying at the caster's feet. Give Templars some way to skillfully regenerate Stamina outside of Repentance, perhaps from a passive or an active skill. Something like, after using Biting Jabs, increase resources returned from heavy attacks by X% for 10 seconds.

Giving credit where it's due, Stamina Templar has good healing. Not the best, mind you, as the class of mediocrity's healing is outclassed by that of the Dragonknight. Both classes have Major Mending, but thanks to the Burning Heart passive (12% healing received), Dragonknight has slightly better healing. (And yeah, technically Dragonknight, like Templar, has Minor Vitality from Coagulating Blood, but does that really count?)

In terms of damage, as previously mentioned, Templar really only has two skills for dealing damage. One of which is so bad, I've written an entire section (#3) on it below.

#3 – Biting Jabs is a Bad Skill
This ability has suffered its fair share of negative changes the past two and a half years, and it shows – it's an unfortunately lacking ability. In days of yore, when there were no "Stamina morphs" of class abilities, Biting Jabs was an imperfect, but interesting skill.

The original skill (Patch 1.0-1.5)

The knockback on the final hit was admittedly buggy. For a long time, it wouldn't grant CC immunity and would hit through dodge roll, likely because the ability's damage was entirely undodgeable at the time. My point is, the skill had a unique mechanic that ramped up the caster's critical chance. This was, and still is, unlike any other anything in the game. However, since patch 1.6:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Puncturing Strikes
  • Biting Jabs (morph): This ability can now scale off stamina and weapon power, and now also provides the Major Savagery buff.

Biting Jabs was converted to a Stamina ability and given Major Savagery, a generic 10% Weapon Critical buff. This was a poor change, as this buff is easily obtained from crafted potions, which are practically required for high-end content. Worse still, Biting Jabs is not even a reliable source of Major Savagery, making this part of the ability wholly irrelevant in PVE.

Unique critical chance buff is no more (Patch 1.6-2.2)

The death knell of Jabs' Major Savagery

Since patch 2.3, the ability was changed to have a comically short snare:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Puncturing Strikes: This ability and its morphs no longer knockback and apply crowd control immunity to the nearest enemy on the final hit; instead, they now snare that enemy by 70% for two seconds.

Generic Weapon Critical buff, generic snare (Patch 2.3-present)

Perhaps comparing Jabs to some other abilities will provide some perspective. Compared to Surprise Attack, Biting Jabs costs more, deals less single-target damage, and the Major Fracture debuff is arguably far more useful than Major Savagery, particularly in PVP and solo PVE. The first two points are easily explained by, "Jabs is an AOE, and AOE abilities shouldn't deal more single-target damage than non-AOE abilities." Fair, but why is Jabs an AOE, again? It's not even a good one, at that. Compared to Steel Tornado, Biting Jabs only affects a cone in front of the caster, which is extremely unreliable against fast-moving targets and completely neuters the ability when the caster is rooted or heavily snared. Furthermore, Steel Tornado has a bigger radius and a built-in execute all for roughly the same cost. And no, Burning Light does not make up for the difference in damage in either of these comparisons because of its internal cooldown and low damage.

And don't forget, unlike Surprise Attack and Steel Tornado, which are instant cast abilities, Biting Jabs has a cast time. Consequently, Jabs cannot be cast while blocking and cannot be canceled with bash. Additionally, roll dodge canceling and swap canceling will cut the ability short. Channeled damage skills are inherently inferior in this game's combat system. This isn't the post to outline this in length, but instant cast abilities are much more pertinent the way the game plays today. In PVP, even if Biting Jabs had more overall damage than Surprise Attack, the Nightblade's fast, instant burst damage would still win out over the Templar's slow, staggered hits because Surprise Attack is just that. Instant pressure that doesn't lock the caster into a channel. And don't forget, Major Resolve, Major Ward, and Major Fracture just for casting Surprise Attack, a skill that also increases max Health while slotted and has a built-in hard CC synergy with cloak. kool

Please consider any the following:

• Replace the Major Savagery buff with a unique buff that increases Weapon Critical by up to X% depending on the missing health of the target(s), like the skill used to behave.
• Make Biting Jabs a targeted ability and adjust the damage accordingly.
• Make Biting Jabs an instant cast ability, remove the area damage portion, and adjust damage accordingly.
• Make the snare less effective but increase its duration. Or replace it with some other debuff, because honestly, there's more than enough snare out there.

#4 – Bad PVE DPS and Conclusion
Make no mistake, a Stamina Templar can complete any content in this game. This notwithstanding, Stamina Templar has the lowest single-target and AOE PVE DPS out of any spec, Magicka or Stamina, rendering them an undesirable melee DPS in trials. This is the sum of the points previously outlined in this post, and Maelstrom scores are living proof of this. A low DPS main spammable, no in-class execute, and unremarkable damage from supporting abilities cause that 10,000+ difference between the top Stamina Templar scores and the other classes. Improve the damage of Biting Jabs or introduce additional Stamina morphs to help the class along. Skills like Crescent Sweep and Solar Barrage are rarely used, making them prime candidates for such a change.

Thanks for reading, and post your (constructive) thoughts below.

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

So you are basically saying for a stamplar just to be on par with other classes you have to have vMA weapons...no offense but you are kinda proving the OP's point.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking for PvE:

What if I told you that my stamplar regularly parses 40k+ on every trial in this game?

What if I told you that the class is in a good shape and truly shines when the fight has more than one target?

What if I told you that stamplars provide utility via their Power of the Light skill that benefits the raid in a unique way?

What if I told you you can use vMA weapons on a stamplar to parse on par with all the other stam classes?

What if I told you that the direction in which the game is heading - mixed single target and aoE fights is ideal for a stamplar?

To summarize: Unique class that is definitely strong and strongly underestimated...

40k isn't that impressive anymore, and that's with raid debuff sets like NMG which no groups run anymore since stam is dead.

On paper the class is only favored in cleave fights. Yet it loses to all other DPS class/role combos in the game. That's not much of a favor.

PotL is a great skill on paper, but half of it (Minor Fracture) is wasted since efficient trial groups don't run stam. This means healers running Minor Breach poisons do everything a Stamplar could bring, without sacrificing 10-20k DPS.

Any stam build not using vMA weapons isn't even remotely worth mentioning, and Stamplar still loses to Stamblade, which is already leagues behind StamDK or Stamsorc.

Explain how every trial has more time spent on AoE trash pulls where aoe caps come into account, already a fight that does not favor Stamplars due to absolutely 0 class input on radius bound damage.

The only thing unique about Stamplar is that it holds the #1 spot for being subpar. It has, by far the worst DPS potential in the game at the moment with nothing unique *AND* valuable in the current state of the meta.

1. I didnt say 40k;) I said 40k+
2. In single Target fights they definitely parse lower no question, but not in AoE. In Mixed fights they perform on par.
3. PoTL is part of my rotation and I swap cancel it so it does not sacrifice dps.
4. Stamplar loses to stamblade is fights with no adds...but there arent many of those in game.
5. Your AoE comment I dont even understand...
6. Im sorrry you feel that way Gil, I did too when I didnt properly play one..

Ehm.... wanna run that by me again?

The fact is we live in two very different worlds of the game, and that's fine. I deal with efficiency, making the meta, pushing the limits. Stamplar is in the gutter right now in those regards, and there's not one redeeming quality to remove it in those regards.

If we're talking run of the mill setups for players to enjoy that don't want to spend months honing themselves and putting themselves to the test, then sure Stamplar is fine. It's brainless and self sufficient with Repentance and great self healing. But at the end of the day, those builds can't come play with the big kids at recess in vMoL HM or competition.

I'm sorry but your references for where Stamplar wins and loses hold no credibility with me or anyone in the end game community for min maxing, and it's unfortunate. I'd love for Stamplar to be able do something unique *and* efficient, but it's just not there at the moment. Here's hoping update 13 brings some love to em.

? What does your vMA score have to do with how good or bad the class is? Also Ive tried a stamplar in vMoL HM, it does amazing damage, especially in HM vMoL since you have at least 2 adds up throughout majority of the fight.

Honey dearest keep your credibility, Id never ever try to impress the "Founder and guild lead of The Order of Mundus. Old member of Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. He who made DK's fear being out parsed."

My gosh I didnt realize you were such a big deal. My apologies!!!
;);)

@hedna123b14_ESO

I think that @Gilliamtherogue point was quite obviously not a straight up 'look how great I am', but a response to the suggestion (bold in the post he quoted) that he couldn't offer an input because he 'doesn't play the class properly' - which is obviously both inane and incorrect.

I said this above alreadt, but if you cant deliver damagr on a stamplar that is on par in a mixed aoe fight then you do not know how to play the class well...that was my point and I stand by it...

You really shouldn't.

Edit: Long time stamplar (like, since January '15). My biggest problem at the level I'm at (no HM trials, but vet dungeons soloed and vMA leaderboard a few times) is honestly just no access to major brutality outside gimmicky weapon lines or expensive potions.

To put it in perspective; stam sorcs get a MB buff that also gives them a marvelous self heal (on par or exceeding vigor...) that also increases their weapon and spell damage through a passive. Stamiknights get a passive that when they activate their MB buff, not only does it grant every person on their team MB and Major Sorcery, but also minor brutality as well. This translates to 25% damage increase. As if that wasn't enough, they also get 5% of their max stam back from activating it. Stamblades get an ability that does disease damage, is an AWESOME AoE, and gives them major brutality (even though they are indeed the weakest of the three examples). That ability existing on their bar also gives them more healing done/recieved (unsure which, it hardly matters), max magicka bonus, and of course activating it returns ult every four seconds.

Templars can use rally and gimp themselves on PvE damage (my situation), or go dual wield and take up a front bar slot for a 20 second source of major brutality. With nothing else. Literally nothing else.

Just my two cents.

In competitive PvE potions are required... Sustain isnt an issue and 2H in PvE isnt currently a thing...

Since you are a fan of asking othere to reread, please reread where I said "where I'm at". I'm not talking about endgame HM trials. I'm talking about general class equality.

Right, but this thread involves PvE and PvP. The PvE part of the thread is HM trials...the PvP part is what you are referring to since you are talking about 2H and sources of brutality/regen...

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Right, but this thread involves PvE and PvP. The PvE part of the thread is HM trials...the PvP part is what you are referring to since you are talking about 2H and sources of brutality/regen...

Jaronking wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading right around the part where you were saying how templars suck because major savagery is a bad buff from biting jabs because you can get it from a potion BUT of course crit surge was listed as one of those awesome must have sorc pve end game skills. You sir, are bad at staying impartial.

Lol and you dont know what your talking about Crit surge doesn't give you major savagery.Which sucks because the potion is better since it also give you weapon damage.Crit surge is crazy good it heals you and give you major Brutally and more weapon damage for being slotted.Crit surge is in every way better than the Major savagery buff at the end of biting jab which isn't useful in PVP either. @Erock25

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I stopped reading right around the part where you were saying how templars suck because major savagery is a bad buff from biting jabs because you can get it from a potion BUT of course crit surge was listed as one of those awesome must have sorc pve end game skills. You sir, are bad at staying impartial.

If I were to guess, the reason being is that jabs gives nothing if you take a potion. Surge still gives a heal based on doing critical damage, and thus is arguably a 30 second vigor. That passively increases weapon damage.

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Right, but this thread involves PvE and PvP. The PvE part of the thread is HM trials...the PvP part is what you are referring to since you are talking about 2H and sources of brutality/regen...

I've read all your posts in this thread and in every single one you have responded to someone's post while completely ignoring something they said, leading me to believe you either don't read the posts and just want to push your agenda or there is a literacy issue. Either way I am here to try to explain things for you. @DocFrost72 clearly stated up front that he is not talking about HM trials. Also, the entire point of his post is that he is pigeonholed into using a 2h for major brutality for his PvE content when other stam classes are not. So while his post does apply to PvP as well, he was specifically talking about PvE.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mt dear, let me be blunt if you dint use pots for PvE you are doing it wrong. PvE content is trials, for everything else outside of trials (with the single exception being vMA) you can literally do naked with random weapons....so if anyone says they do PvE content they imply trials...2H is not used for PvE if you want to pull any sort of respectable damage, because the weapon line is at this time not able to compare with dual wield...