BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

This comes down to a concern on game balance. Can I spend time farming, shopping - etc. and attempt to gold and finalize all my gear? Yes. Absolutely. I play this game more than enough. But the opportunity cost is that I don't get to do something else productive (or fun). Like - play the game. PvP. Do a dungeon. A trial. Do something that makes me interact with other players and keep the game community healthy.

This game is suffering from a grindy, RNG loot imbalance that is consuming too many people's time and turning them off to the game.

Just because YOU don't like farming/crafting/trading activities doesn't mean nobody likes them.
If these type of activities would be made worthless (as you suggest), I would be gone from the game (I'm done with dungeons and trials, done, redone, re-redone..., and PvP is too toxic to be fun on a regular basis ).
Market game on the other hand is always suprising and puts me in touch with a lot of people in the game that I love chatting with and getting to know.
Please don't ask for MY activity to be taken away just so you can make YOUR activity more comfortable, because no activity has "priority".

Besides, I know *many* endgame players who consider purple gear not worth their "incredible skill level", or think that it will gimp them to the ground. They feel "entitled" to have their stuff upgraded to gold immediately and are ready to spend up to their last coin on it. It's an attitude. Why shouldn't farmers/traders benefit from it ?

Worthless? When did I suggest nobody likes these activities? Where are you getting this from? It doesn't have to be extremes. I'm after healthy game balance. Setting a price ceiling does not prevent farming or trading activities. It does make them less profitable, sure. So I can see why you're immediately against it. But I'm after reasonable balance, not extremes - and a price ceiling controls extreme price fluctuations. I have gold gear, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize a huge problem when I see it.

You implied worthless with the "real" game comment.

Sorry to say but crafting has been left behind. You can't make gold crafting gear, able to buy alchemy reagents, so yes us crafters are getting shafted at every corner. Why did I spend all that gold to buy motifs? All the dropped sets have taken away a lot of business from me, went to selling potions and flowers. Well now you can buy them. Trials gear, nope went to bop. Tempers, well let's take that too.

There is no way to make it fair for all. Everytime they make a balance change it hurts someone else. There is no true balance that would make everyone happy,

Actually no. I implied nothing. I'm stating that the game currently is favoring the grind activities that you enjoy. Buying, selling, and farming. And I'm willing to be you are definitely in the minority of people who enjoy doing that stuff. Maybe I'm wrong. I bet not.

I'm not saying to eliminate it, but balance it. You keep saying worthless. Are you suggesting that with a price celinig (for example with the Tel Var merchant starts selling alchemy reagents) that columbine will no longer be sold?

If you didn't intend to make it sound as if farming as secondary, why would you say "real"? It would be the same as saying "I'm a real player", that implies that the way others play is not "the way" to play the game.

I don't like the apothecary bags either. More things taken away from me to make gold on. Will columbine still sell, yes. Will it be as profitable, no. But here's the difference, I can farm tel var stones faster than columbine. So I would be able to sell at lower prices.

They are slowly changing things that are affecting the economy, crafting was once profitable, but with all the new sets, not viable beyond a couple of crated sets. Selling mats, nope 1T took care of that. Selling flowers, nope apothecary bags. Do you see where I'm going with this? I used to make extant gold selling trial drops, nope boe fixed that. I use my gold to buy motifs mainly. So I don't horde millions, I keep about 1.5 mil for new motif drops. Usually if I sell my tempers it's from zone chat someone looking to buy.

Again I don't see how to soft cap a price on something fluid. People are making it sound like they cant get these items, when in fact all hearing is they don't want to put in the effort.

I don't think you can say they are favoring farming, as that's not where the problems of price are coming from. They have actually tried to balance the drop rate of temepers, not to help the farmers, but to help everyone else. I am not the one listing this stuff at outrageous prices. I actually help alot of people at a loss to myself. What appears to be the main complaint is bigger guilds cornering the market. Anyone can get around this, I'll even make it easy, go to Belkarth and post wtb wax whisper me your offer. Watch what happens.

Real MMOish example. Anyone ever played Madden Ultimate Team? In a nutshell it's a game inside of Madden where people buy player cards for real money. If you buy a Tom Brady card in game you get to play as Tom Brady vs your online opponents.

Anyway they have gone through many different iterations of their economy. Currently they are operating it where there is no real minimum or maximum. Works well in general but there is always a hockey stick like curve for the best cards. Eli Manning is capable of winning a game for a good player and can be acquired for peanuts (purple gear) but if you want that super rare 99 Brady card (gold gear) you're gonna pay insane prices.

Conversely a few years back they had a system where they had a minimum price and you could only go up to 3 times that price on the selling block. So what happened? Every single item was listed at 3 times value. Awful players were priced the same elite players. In no time at all everyone had the best team imaginable.

My fear is that capping top end materials or gear will lead to everyone having it. You think that sounds great, right? Go take a step into Cyrodiil under those conditions. It'll be more insta-nuke game breaking than ever.

Just leave it how it is. We can argue semantics of economic theory all day long, but in the end the rule of unintended consequences can be a (female dog).

alexkdd99 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

I think we can all agree here that there is a drastic issue with an unchecked money supply (gold). You can choose to believe whether this issue has lead to unchecked and inflated prices for gold materials, or not. Regardless, it is a simple economic principle that a large unregulated supply of gold both inflates and distorts relative prices, including dreugh wax and tempering alloys. That is what inflation does. The 1 gold you're holding how has less purchasing power, because there's more of it. To hedge against this, smart people buy up useful things like top tier items and gold materials, removing them from the market and raising prices. Because its not profitable for them to hold money when its constantly being devalued.

Inflation happens in EVERY economy. There can be no monopoly on gold upgrade mats in an economy like eso since everyone has access to obtain gold upgrade mats.

How do you know that these supposed bots (which I've never seen) are Chinese? I farm from time to time and have never seen these bots you speak of.

You just don't want to put the time farming in and don't want to pay the price. The buyers set the price in this economy. If a seller is not selling at a certain price they will lower it.

Definitely a big no to price ceiling, zos has already made everything incredibly easy to get. Why do you think you should be able to get the best quality gear so easily?

Yep. I'm on this game like a part time job. But I should just be farming more. Got it. Thanks.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

@BigES

The person you quoted is correct that we agree to the price we buy it at. Market forces set the price.

Additionally, and more important, legendary quality gear is intended to be much rarer than epic. It's by obvious design in the game. The price should not be cheap.

It's a choice.

I don't think you understand the concept of inflation...

Lol. Inflation only occurred eso based on our choices and how it affects market pressures.

So no, you don't understand how inflation works. As long as we both accept that. "Market forces" isn't some abstract concept or something that just occurs in a vacuum. People control those "market forces" in your every day life, you just may not be aware of it.

You seem a tad confused if Your saying I do not know how inflation works. Or your not reading my posts.

Market forces absolute control inflation and deflation in eso. 100%. In the vacuum the game is. There are no other forces than supply and demand changes available to the game.

People control what via buying more and buying less. They control it by selling more and selling less.

Basic economics at work. Cannot get more basic than this.

Factors other than supply and demand that impact ESO, off the top of my head.

Monetary policy, substitute goods, complementary goods, imperfect information, monopolistic profit, barriers to entry. Just to name a few. All of these contribute to the supply and demand function, and are much more complex than your basic assessment. Saying things are a simple as supply and demand demonstrates a lack of understanding of the basic principles that drive any economy.

Dude. Lay off the skooma.

For starters you seem to like to argue with many in this thread like @anitajoneb17_ESO and @danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO yet your wrong.

Honestly, monetary policy? Who sets it? Molag bal, the emporer?

There is not governing body in eso settings ng such things. There are no substitute goods for gold uigrade matts.

I can go on with your list because most of it is a complete joke.

Monetary policy if determined by ZOS. If you don't comprehend what these basic economic factors are then you don't need to comment.

It seems as though you do not comprehend what monetary policy is which explains much about your odd claims.

Using Webster for the definition:

Definition of monetary policy. : measures taken by the central bank and treasury to strengthen the economy and minimize cyclical fluctuations through the availability and cost of credit, budgetary and tax policies, and other financial factors and comprising credit control and fiscal policy.

To sum this up, it would be the macroeconomic policies laid down by a central bank or central authority on the matter.

Yea, LOL, Zos does not take part in any of this. It is what makes me wonder if you are actually serious or understand basic economic policies.

If you can't understand fundamental economics then I won't bother engaging you further. No big deal. But it's hard to communicate when people can't agree on basic facts. In any game economy, the developers have the function of the central bank. They control the money supplies. Traders fees, repair fees? Those are taxes. Drop rates for gold and such are essentially the same as buying and selling bonds. These are fundamentals that are present in absolutely any transaction. The supply of cookies distributed by a teacher the preschool class is the same principal. Just because something doesn't say central bank in its title doesn't mean it can't fulfill the same basic roles.

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

@BigES

The person you quoted is correct that we agree to the price we buy it at. Market forces set the price.

Additionally, and more important, legendary quality gear is intended to be much rarer than epic. It's by obvious design in the game. The price should not be cheap.

It's a choice.

I don't think you understand the concept of inflation...

Lol. Inflation only occurred eso based on our choices and how it affects market pressures.

So no, you don't understand how inflation works. As long as we both accept that. "Market forces" isn't some abstract concept or something that just occurs in a vacuum. People control those "market forces" in your every day life, you just may not be aware of it.

You seem a tad confused if Your saying I do not know how inflation works. Or your not reading my posts.

Market forces absolute control inflation and deflation in eso. 100%. In the vacuum the game is. There are no other forces than supply and demand changes available to the game.

People control what via buying more and buying less. They control it by selling more and selling less.

Basic economics at work. Cannot get more basic than this.

Factors other than supply and demand that impact ESO, off the top of my head.

Monetary policy, substitute goods, complementary goods, imperfect information, monopolistic profit, barriers to entry. Just to name a few. All of these contribute to the supply and demand function, and are much more complex than your basic assessment. Saying things are a simple as supply and demand demonstrates a lack of understanding of the basic principles that drive any economy.

Dude. Lay off the skooma.

For starters you seem to like to argue with many in this thread like @anitajoneb17_ESO and @danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO yet your wrong.

Honestly, monetary policy? Who sets it? Molag bal, the emporer?

There is not governing body in eso settings ng such things. There are no substitute goods for gold uigrade matts.

I can go on with your list because most of it is a complete joke.

Monetary policy if determined by ZOS. If you don't comprehend what these basic economic factors are then you don't need to comment.

It seems as though you do not comprehend what monetary policy is which explains much about your odd claims.

Using Webster for the definition:

Definition of monetary policy. : measures taken by the central bank and treasury to strengthen the economy and minimize cyclical fluctuations through the availability and cost of credit, budgetary and tax policies, and other financial factors and comprising credit control and fiscal policy.

To sum this up, it would be the macroeconomic policies laid down by a central bank or central authority on the matter.

Yea, LOL, Zos does not take part in any of this. It is what makes me wonder if you are actually serious or understand basic economic policies.

If you can't understand fundamental economics then I won't bother engaging you further. No big deal. But it's hard to communicate when people can't agree on basic facts. In any game economy, the developers have the function of the central bank. They control the money supplies. Traders fees, repair fees? Those are taxes. Drop rates for gold and such are essentially the same as buying and selling bonds. These are fundamentals that are present in absolutely any transaction. The supply of cookies distributed by a teacher the preschool class is the same principal. Just because something doesn't say central bank in its title doesn't mean it can't fulfill the same basic roles.

And this is where I make my exit and why I don't typically post on internet forums. You could just spend your entire day trying to teach people complicated subject matter. But I care about the health of this game and thought I'd try, since I've played since day 1. Turns out people are still not receptive or willing to learn on the internet, and still want to do quick wikipedia searches in an attempt to "win" the argument and explain to you how much they "know".

Maybe the game developers will read this and listen to two practicing economists who enjoy the game. Or maybe they'll hear the loudest voices, which are typically the opinion that wins the argument.

Anyways, enjoy the internet trolls man. Lol. I'm done.

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Nah that's alright I'd much rather pay ZOS for crowns to gold conversions, and have other's do the gold to crown conversion. Can we have this ZOS? Please? Please? Pretty please with a cherry on top? Then everyone one wins, including ZOS, and not just the exploitative market manipulators. It'll be like the Gem to Gold conversion system in GW2. Awesome for the poor people who can spend a lot of hours playing the game, and awesome for the people with jobs and lives with no one else to help them control the markets in game in their absence, that can't be bothered to spend their only 2 or 3 hours they have in the game just grinding, also this is good for ZOS and the game since it can create a true gold sink being people can trade gold to other players for their crowns to buy things off of the crown store. Thoughts?

Do you realize that would make ZOS go completely bankrupt ? Because nobody would buy crowns anymore ! Except, of course, those who have plenty of money to spend on this IRL and will go the full P2W route.

Besides, they mentioned a soon-to-come opportunity to buy stuff for other players in the crown store (as "gifts"). That would make ingame currency => real money conversion (via crowns) directly available - and raise countless legal and tax issues, multiply the number of bots / "professional" players multiply by 1000 or 10000, etc.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Maybe the game developers will read this and listen to two practicing economists who enjoy the game.

Where's the second one ?

*Raises hand meekly*

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Maybe the game developers will read this and listen to two practicing economists who enjoy the game.

Where's the second one ?

*Raises hand meekly*

No no, I mean you're the 1st one. Where's the second ?

I think he's referring to himself.

Awww..... ouch.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

You just need to learn how to get better prices. I bought 3 tempers yesterday 10k ea. Never go to guild traders for stuff like that. Prime example is the Psijic ambrosia frags. 120-10k on traders. I get mine under 50k ea. Learn how to work the market. Alot of low level players will sell low to get gold for something, I was buying frags over the weekend and a guy offered them to me @ 4k ea. I still gave him fair market value but there are people that either don't care or don't know.

I'm aware you can find unsuspecting players who don't know what they have or the value of it. But I'm talking about the 90% market value, not the exception. I'm talking about the community price. If we all "looked for a deal" as you suggested, it wouldn't be a deal anymore, would it?

Exactly. If everyone or at least many people made the effort to look for deals (instead of complaining about prices but buying anyway) high priced goods would not sell and prices would drop for everybody.

Remember : everytime you buy something at a certain price, it means you agree on that price, because you have the choice to NOT BUY. In ESO there's nothing you cannot farm by yourself and thus obtain without gold (unlike RL where you have no choice but to buy some basic stuff regardless of price).

Again, this is not specifically about cost. Its also about time. Time is money.

@BigES

The person you quoted is correct that we agree to the price we buy it at. Market forces set the price.

Additionally, and more important, legendary quality gear is intended to be much rarer than epic. It's by obvious design in the game. The price should not be cheap.

It's a choice.

I don't think you understand the concept of inflation...

Lol. Inflation only occurred eso based on our choices and how it affects market pressures.

So no, you don't understand how inflation works. As long as we both accept that. "Market forces" isn't some abstract concept or something that just occurs in a vacuum. People control those "market forces" in your every day life, you just may not be aware of it.

You seem a tad confused if Your saying I do not know how inflation works. Or your not reading my posts.

Market forces absolute control inflation and deflation in eso. 100%. In the vacuum the game is. There are no other forces than supply and demand changes available to the game.

People control what via buying more and buying less. They control it by selling more and selling less.

Basic economics at work. Cannot get more basic than this.

Factors other than supply and demand that impact ESO, off the top of my head.

Monetary policy, substitute goods, complementary goods, imperfect information, monopolistic profit, barriers to entry. Just to name a few. All of these contribute to the supply and demand function, and are much more complex than your basic assessment. Saying things are a simple as supply and demand demonstrates a lack of understanding of the basic principles that drive any economy.

Dude. Lay off the skooma.

For starters you seem to like to argue with many in this thread like @anitajoneb17_ESO and @danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO yet your wrong.

Honestly, monetary policy? Who sets it? Molag bal, the emporer?

There is not governing body in eso settings ng such things. There are no substitute goods for gold uigrade matts.

I can go on with your list because most of it is a complete joke.

Monetary policy if determined by ZOS. If you don't comprehend what these basic economic factors are then you don't need to comment.

It seems as though you do not comprehend what monetary policy is which explains much about your odd claims.

Using Webster for the definition:

Definition of monetary policy. : measures taken by the central bank and treasury to strengthen the economy and minimize cyclical fluctuations through the availability and cost of credit, budgetary and tax policies, and other financial factors and comprising credit control and fiscal policy.

To sum this up, it would be the macroeconomic policies laid down by a central bank or central authority on the matter.

Yea, LOL, Zos does not take part in any of this. It is what makes me wonder if you are actually serious or understand basic economic policies.

If you can't understand fundamental economics then I won't bother engaging you further. No big deal. But it's hard to communicate when people can't agree on basic facts. In any game economy, the developers have the function of the central bank. They control the money supplies. Traders fees, repair fees? Those are taxes. Drop rates for gold and such are essentially the same as buying and selling bonds. These are fundamentals that are present in absolutely any transaction. The supply of cookies distributed by a teacher the preschool class is the same principal. Just because something doesn't say central bank in its title doesn't mean it can't fulfill the same basic roles.

And this is where I make my exit and why I don't typically post on internet forums. You could just spend your entire day trying to teach people complicated subject matter. But I care about the health of this game and thought I'd try, since I've played since day 1. Turns out people are still not receptive or willing to learn on the internet, and still want to do quick wikipedia searches in an attempt to "win" the argument and explain to you how much they "know".

Maybe the game developers will read this and listen to two practicing economists who enjoy the game. Or maybe they'll hear the loudest voices, which are typically the opinion that wins the argument.

Anyways, enjoy the internet trolls man. Lol. I'm done.

LOL, thanks for pointing out that guys complete lack of understanding of economics. I have been getting a laugh out of the replies @SwaminoNowlino has made.

Fortunately Zos has business people employed and understand actual economic principles.

@BigES he was so close lololol

I suggest stopping while you are behind.

I suggest you scroll up to the educational post once again in hopes you begin to understand monetary policy. I figure one lesson at a time for you. Maybe you will be able to put forth an informed post instead of the perverted information you have been sharing in this thread.

Please oh wise one, educate me on the implementation of a restrictive monetary policy and its role in managing inflation. Or should I copy and paste a dictionary definition that I don't really understand to mask that I have no idea what I am talking about?

Stop buying....go farm
It's a supply and demand situation so as long as people are buying, prices will stay high

If more ppl go farm and list, the demand drops.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing prevents you from farming your own tempers.
It's not like any player has a monopoly on them.

There is a monopoly, it's called taking advantage of laziness. Harvesting Silk and Ore and hoping to be given a gold mat out of the hundreds you refine takes way too long, people want their gold gear now, right meow. And when you have the excess gold to buy up and resell, people are only left with the price you set. Capitalism.

Things would have been better if the market was run by ZOS and everything could be bought from NPC Traders at set prices.

Not too hard to farm your own I get 1 temper alloy about every 200 raw mats, doesn't take long to get 200 raw mats.