vMA isn't hard; it's just frustratingly BS. Here's how I would change it...

redspecter23 · November 2016

Junipus wrote: »

AlexTech0x wrote: »

Lazy gamer ? No.

Entitled gamer? Yes.

All *** is hard first time you do it. Pretty sure first time you learnt to walk your baby brain didn't go "*** me this is too hard. Not doing this *** again. *** gonna push me everywhere til some *** give me crutches".

To continue on with your analogy, the RNG on that last chest would have some baby brains learning how to walk at 2 months and some crawling around until they die 80 years later.

obscure7 · November 2016

No to nerfs.

Yes to token.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2016

I am indifferent on some of the stuff you said, and couldn't agree more about the loot. Don't get me wrong, the ranged adds hit hard and everyone has been overwhelmed a time or 3. That said, you have sigils. The shield sigil makes what you are talking about a non-issue. Sure it costs points on the score, but you need to have something to separate the leaderboards.

If I were to change anything mechanically in this arena, it would be a reworking of the poisons in stage 7. It is a neat idea in theory, but this is the only place you really can die to RNG. I would make the shield protect form poison, and the add should be invulnerable while he is shielding so you cant accidentally kill him. I would also give them a longer visual indicator when they explode without the summoner, so you can get out of the way. Lastly, I would also make the poison take a little longer to kill you. On a magic toon, you can shield stack and run across the room. On stam, you better be really damn close to the green pool or you are toast. Also, something about stage 7 always turns my game into a slide show, especially when the wamasu spawns in round 3. It happens every single time.

As for the RNG, no arguments here. This is hands down the worst thing about eso. I ran VMA about 20 times over the event. Not nearly as much as some, but I do have this thing called a job. I got one useful weapon (and two flawless titles). Finally got that sharp dagger (after a year of trying), but still dont have a sharp Inferno or Bow. I think I have both in every other possible trait, or at least close to it. What I did get was enough Resto Staves to build a log cabin.

Something needs to change about the loot system in this arena. Simply put, if you have been running a piece of content for a year and still dont have the item you are after, something is fundamentally flawed with the reward system. I would never ask for instant gratification, but this is broken AF.

Token system or trait change, take your pick ZOS.

Saint_Bud · November 2016

No to all. The raid is now a year old. They should invest time in a new 4 men arena and a new 12 man trial. Absolut no reason to change vma.

Sallington · November 2016

The ONLY problem with vMA is the reward structure.

KramUzibra · November 2016

Just bring back double drops. vMA isn't hard it's just not worth it with the way rng is.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2016

Junipus wrote: »

I was going to point out how the mechanics and tips you suggested for improving the arena aren't actually an issue once you accept that you need to work with them, but then you mentioned the dreaded words "Token system" and I dismiss everything you've put forward no matter how clever, interesting or useful.

Another token system thread, another person complaining because they don't want to grind content they can do.

After reading your comments, I cant tell if you are a troll or just got really lucky in VMA so you dont care. You keep saying to grind the arena. For how long? The content has been out for a year, and there are many of us that if been grinding it nearly that long and still dont have what we are after. You will never hear me say to give stuff away or put it in the vendor, but at some point, enough is enough. These weapons are BIS and if you care about scores, they are required for endgame content. The fact that some people get them in 1 run and others dont get them after 1000 is just ridiculous. Pure RNG has no place in modern video games. ZOS needs to do better.

Reorx_Holybeard · November 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am indifferent on some of the stuff you said, and couldn't agree more about the loot. Don't get me wrong, the ranged adds hit hard and everyone has been overwhelmed a time or 3. That said, you have sigils. The shield sigil makes what you are talking about a non-issue. Sure it costs points on the score, but you need to have something to separate the leaderboards.

If I were to change anything mechanically in this arena, it would be a reworking of the poisons in stage 7. It is a neat idea in theory, but this is the only place you really can die to RNG. I would make the shield protect form poison, and the add should be invulnerable while he is shielding so you cant accidentally kill him. I would also give them a longer visual indicator when they explode without the summoner, so you can get out of the way. Lastly, I would also make the poison take a little longer to kill you. On a magic toon, you can shield stack and run across the room. On stam, you better be really damn close to the green pool or you are toast. Also, something about stage 7 always turns my game into a slide show, especially when the wamasu spawns in round 3. It happens every single time.

As for the RNG, no arguments here. This is hands down the worst thing about eso. I ran VMA about 20 times over the event. Not nearly as much as some, but I do have this thing called a job. I got one useful weapon (and two flawless titles). Finally got that sharp dagger (after a year of trying), but still dont have a sharp Inferno or Bow. I think I have both in every other possible trait, or at least close to it. What I did get was enough Resto Staves to build a log cabin.

Something needs to change about the loot system in this arena. Simply put, if you have been running a piece of content for a year and still dont have the item you are after, something is fundamentally flawed with the reward system. I would never ask for instant gratification, but this is broken AF.

Token system or trait change, take your pick ZOS.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing I would add is to remove those small bushes from round 7 as they can effectively hide a plant from view if it is right underneath it. Its hard enough to avoid them all the time when you can see them let alone when they are effectively invisible.

Soleya · November 2016

A few things I would like to see fixed.

Stage 3, why are the sigils in the water. You can't grab them when the water is electrified.
Stage 5, sometimes you get stuck trying to get back up on the islands due to some tiny ledge collision. It's not deep water, so there should be no collision at all (should be able to walk up like a ramp)
Stage 5, if you take the haste sigil and are feared by the boss, you run away at super speed so you end up halfway out in the ice water before you can break free.
Stage 7, during the boss's scream phase, the poison plants shouldn't respawn. Had one spawn under the blue shield 4 times in a row.
Stage 9, fix the shield collision area. Been knocked off more than once while behind the shield wall.

General issue
Fix dodge roll, so that when you dodge roll out of a red ring it actually counts as being outside.
Synergy to pick up sigils doesn't work half the time. You end up pressing x about 20 times to grab one. This seems to be an issue with synergies in general.

Agree with the end loot. I've done 15 runs now and after getting two charged sword/shield's in a row, I'm done. It's not worth the time spent for the rewards. Gonna just live with my sharpened + nirnhoned axe and infused bow.

I know some people have run it hundreds of times and I just can't imagine doing that.

Not sure if this is whats meant by token system, but final chest could have a maelstrom key, which could be used on chests in the room where you pick up the quest. 1 chest for each weapon type.

Reorx_Holybeard · November 2016

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

...
General issue
Fix dodge roll, so that when you dodge roll out of a red ring it actually counts as being outside.
Synergy to pick up sigils doesn't work half the time. You end up pressing x about 20 times to grab one. This seems to be an issue with synergies in general.
...

Another good list...speaking of synergies the synergy on arena 7 when the beetle dies far from a pedestal is annoyingly difficult to use. It takes a second or two to actually activate it and another second or 3 to aim it well enough, all the while you're standing there unprotected to all the wonderful things that like to kill you. I've died so many times trying to activate these things that at this point that I don't even try to use it.

strikeback1247 · November 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

strikeback1247 wrote: »

1. Build more resistance or just roll a dk if the ranged mobs hit too hard.
2. Get better resource management.
3. Agreed.

1. If someone has to roll another class just to complete vMA that is just utterly stupid, and you're basically just proving their point by saying that.
2. To finish vMA properly you need high damage, but high damage comes at the cost of resources. Not all classes have great resource management, like Templars for example. Sometimes my stam sorc doesn't even get a chance to dark deal without getting pulverized. I can usually cast it between rounds which isn't too bad, but once again, not every class has access to this ability.
3. Also agree.

While you may find vMA easy, others do not. Personally I'd like to see a group vMA (while also retaining a solo one, because sometimes you just want to run it by yourself). You'd have more of a chance at dropping the weapon you want because there's 4 people, and it'd be more fun like vDSA is.
Obviously the mobs/bosses will need to be scaled appropriately.

1. That comment about rolling a dk was meant to be sarcastic :^)
2. You don't need high damage to complete vMA, I saw a full HA s&b flawless run the other day. (btw, my magplar is doing just fine in the resource department

)
3. Agreed again.

What I expect of a 4-man vMA from zos:

Zos employee: "Just give the mobs 4x more damage and 20x the hp. Done. Now get me my money!"

Jk, a 4-man vMA sounds pretty cool.

AverageJo3Gam3r · November 2016

Just implement a coffer system. Completing maelstrom gives you a maelstrom sigil. You can use it at the maelstrom vendor to buy a 2H coffer, 1H coffer, bow coffer, destro staff coffer, or a resto staff coffer. Problem solved. Not quite a token system, but at least you know you won't get a weapon you cannot use. Still need to grind for the right trait but should take fewer runs.

Plus, the rest of the game uses the coffer system (IC tel var vendors, IC trophy rooms, PvP town vendors, daily quests, etc).

Soleya · November 2016

strikeback1247 wrote: »

Jk, a 4-man vMA sounds pretty cool.

I always thought 2 person vMA would be cool. I play ESO with my wife, so it would actually be fun to beat it together. So we can both get charged swords to decon.

Osteos · November 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

strikeback1247 wrote: »

1. Build more resistance or just roll a dk if the ranged mobs hit too hard.
2. Get better resource management.
3. Agreed.

1. If someone has to roll another class just to complete vMA that is just utterly stupid, and you're basically just proving their point by saying that.
2. To finish vMA properly you need high damage, but high damage comes at the cost of resources. Not all classes have great resource management, like Templars for example. Sometimes my stam sorc doesn't even get a chance to dark deal without getting pulverized. I can usually cast it between rounds which isn't too bad, but once again, not every class has access to this ability.
3. Also agree.

While you may find vMA easy, others do not. Personally I'd like to see a group vMA (while also retaining a solo one, because sometimes you just want to run it by yourself). You'd have more of a chance at dropping the weapon you want because there's 4 people, and it'd be more fun like vDSA is.
Obviously the mobs/bosses will need to be scaled appropriately.

I wish it had a duo option. For me that would be more fun. As it is right now is no fun at all.

Masel · November 2016

I don't think the arena needs a nerf, but I got my flawless already so my despair and nervousness is over. What they definitely need to do is to add some kind of safety that you get a certain weapon after a certain amount of runs. It's just frustrating as the only thing I don't have is the sharpened inferno and I did three to four runs a day in the last two weeks, without it paying off....

Doctordarkspawn · November 2016

I agree.

zyk · November 2016

The only thing frustrating to me about vMA is itemization. I don't mind a grind as long as I can see progress towards my goal.

The RNG lottery with so many options ensures some players will *NEVER* get the weapon that suits their preferred class/build/playstyle.

Lukums1 · November 2016

Don't agree with anything OP said.

Git Gud is in order here.

We already said the token system is bad and I doubt it will ever come.
Thread after thread after thread ... can't say I'm surprised

Tannus15 · November 2016

The RNG lottery is a problem throughout the game, just more blatent in vMA where 1 run takes an hour+ and it's bloody hard.

I've run run vFG1 over 2 dozen times and I've still not had a single spider-cult neck drop. I'm not even talking a specific trait or something, the spider-cult neck hasn't dropped for me or the groups I've been in ONCE.

Simply put, well done ZoS, you've made a random gear generator, and I'm sure it's legit random.
The reality is that no one wants a truly random gear generator.
Basically what players want is some sort of tracker that says "oh, you haven't had a viper dagger drop, lets increase the % chance on that one" or "wow, that's 57 resto staffs from vMA, lets drop the % chance of that item dropping"

Alternatively it would be good to go "Hmm, you're using DW / Bow, so lets add 10% likely-hood to 1 handed weapons and Bows dropping"

Lukums1 · November 2016

You'll always get the nub cakes crying.

VMA takes most people 45-55minutes now. That's not TOO bad.

I agree no one wants to see a powered dagger.

If they just removed the crap triats on WHATEVER weapon was provided in the chest it would solve 90% of peoples issues running.

Fine the destro staff is rare like super rare but at least when it drops it's either infused,precise, sharpen, nirn.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · November 2016

KramUzibra wrote: »

Just bring back double drops. vMA isn't hard it's just not worth it with the way rng is.

I agree. vMA isn't hard nor is it fun anymore. The first run is hell until you beat it then it is the most satisfying feeling ever. The next couple runs are okay and then it just gets boring.

Junipus · November 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

I was going to point out how the mechanics and tips you suggested for improving the arena aren't actually an issue once you accept that you need to work with them, but then you mentioned the dreaded words "Token system" and I dismiss everything you've put forward no matter how clever, interesting or useful.

Another token system thread, another person complaining because they don't want to grind content they can do.

After reading your comments, I cant tell if you are a troll or just got really lucky in VMA so you dont care. You keep saying to grind the arena. For how long? The content has been out for a year, and there are many of us that if been grinding it nearly that long and still dont have what we are after. You will never hear me say to give stuff away or put it in the vendor, but at some point, enough is enough. These weapons are BIS and if you care about scores, they are required for endgame content. The fact that some people get them in 1 run and others dont get them after 1000 is just ridiculous. Pure RNG has no place in modern video games. ZOS needs to do better.

Not a troll, and still looking for a sharpened 1h and flawless so am still grinding away.

Token systems are going to be difficult to implement even if ZOS decided that they wanted to change from calling their content repeatable content (which is what it is).

How many tokens would someone need? 1? 5? 10? 100? Too many means no difference as you'd learn the trial enough so you'd be a good enough player without the weapons. Too few and the weapons make little difference as you're not going to learn how to survive on your own in trials. I've seen plenty of average players improve drastically after grinding vma, even if they don't use the weapons.

Do you replace weapons with tokens?
Do you revert the changes with save points and continuation?
Do you revert the changes made to mob difficulty so it's more challenging for an immediate gratification reward?
Do you implement the changes and have legions of players with poor impulse control complain there's no content to do and they're bored?
Do you remove weekly rewards or give players another meaningless token once they cash in their existing stash?
Do you relent and make the changes only to then have others complain they don't get their VO/IA/Moondancer/Twilight/Alkosh/Lunar Bastion jewels or weapons from the other trials? (I know it's tradeable, but people will complain and this change would give precedent)
Do you ignore the above calls for change and be labeled as selfish for only demanding change for your own benefit over others?

There's plenty of people around who can help out in a variety of different means to help someone get their desired vma weapon, and not just through YouTube guides.

Danksta · November 2016

I'm on board with a token system, but the only nerf (if you'd call it that) I can get on board with is if on the boss round of stage 7 they gave immunity to the poison flowers while you are inside the shield. It's been nerfed enough already.

s7732425ub17_ESO · November 2016

More than half of your complaints sounds like "get good" problems. Having cleared the arena so many times, I'm surprised you are still complaining about things that good players have no issues with.

You die to blue ghosts? You serious? I can't remember the last time I ran into one of those.

You complain about ranged enemies on stages 5 and 7? But the ranged enemies are a key part of the difficulty of those arenas. They are essentially mechanics of those arenas. Round 7 archers in particular. You have obviously not mastered the mechanic yet.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · November 2016

Junipus wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Junipus wrote: »

I was going to point out how the mechanics and tips you suggested for improving the arena aren't actually an issue once you accept that you need to work with them, but then you mentioned the dreaded words "Token system" and I dismiss everything you've put forward no matter how clever, interesting or useful.

Another token system thread, another person complaining because they don't want to grind content they can do.

After reading your comments, I cant tell if you are a troll or just got really lucky in VMA so you dont care. You keep saying to grind the arena. For how long? The content has been out for a year, and there are many of us that if been grinding it nearly that long and still dont have what we are after. You will never hear me say to give stuff away or put it in the vendor, but at some point, enough is enough. These weapons are BIS and if you care about scores, they are required for endgame content. The fact that some people get them in 1 run and others dont get them after 1000 is just ridiculous. Pure RNG has no place in modern video games. ZOS needs to do better.

Not a troll, and still looking for a sharpened 1h and flawless so am still grinding away.

Token systems are going to be difficult to implement even if ZOS decided that they wanted to change from calling their content repeatable content (which is what it is).

How many tokens would someone need? 1? 5? 10? 100? Too many means no difference as you'd learn the trial enough so you'd be a good enough player without the weapons. Too few and the weapons make little difference as you're not going to learn how to survive on your own in trials. I've seen plenty of average players improve drastically after grinding vma, even if they don't use the weapons.

Do you replace weapons with tokens?
Do you revert the changes with save points and continuation?
Do you revert the changes made to mob difficulty so it's more challenging for an immediate gratification reward?
Do you implement the changes and have legions of players with poor impulse control complain there's no content to do and they're bored?
Do you remove weekly rewards or give players another meaningless token once they cash in their existing stash?
Do you relent and make the changes only to then have others complain they don't get their VO/IA/Moondancer/Twilight/Alkosh/Lunar Bastion jewels or weapons from the other trials? (I know it's tradeable, but people will complain and this change would give precedent)
Do you ignore the above calls for change and be labeled as selfish for only demanding change for your own benefit over others?

There's plenty of people around who can help out in a variety of different means to help someone get their desired vma weapon, and not just through YouTube guides.

No amount of guides or help can get you a VMA weapon. Only luck can do that. I have cleared this on every class, with several flawless runs, since about a month after it launched. I dont need help clearing the arena, I need help with an archaic random number generator that has no business in a modern game.

I think you are missing the main issue. For the record, a token system requiring 100 runs would be better than the status quo, which is pure RNG and a huge loot table. That is the problem with RNG. Even in a really big loot table like this, a lot of people will get pretty much everything they want in 50-60 runs, and say there is no problem.

However, there are people like myself that are well in excess of this and cant get the weapon they are after. Replayability is one thing, but a grind with no end in sight is quite another. I am no stranger to a grind, I have been playing RPGs for almost 30 years. That being said, every other grind I have done has foreseeable end at some point. This place does not. Statistically, it is possible to run this place a million times and not get what you are after, which is a huge problem. Sure it's really unlikely, but it's possible.

I have a guild mate that has only cleared this place a handful of times, and he got 2 sharp infernos in one run. Compare that to Streak One, arguably the best VMA player on the planet, who didnt get his sharp inferno until over an estimated 1,000 runs. People might not believe he ran it that much, but I tend to believe it. Mostly because when he is online he is nearly always in that place and because I dont know how you get that good without running it 1,000 times.

RNG is fine and all for a lot of things, but there needs to be some system in place where you can get what you need after a reasonable amount of runs. That is all we want. Some sort of safety valve to ensure you dont fall on the far side of the bell curve and want to rage quite.

redspecter23 · November 2016

Lukums1 wrote: »

Don't agree with anything OP said.

Git Gud is in order here.

We already said the token system is bad and I doubt it will ever come.
Thread after thread after thread ... can't say I'm surprised

Says the guy that got shapened + precise one handers on his first run of the event. Join the ranks of the unlucky and see if you still say "Git Gud" Some people are "Gud" but just can't beat RNG

Aeaeren · November 2016

I posted my thread, my issues is the LAG and the simple fact that Xbox and PS4 are stuck using combo buttons that don't freakin work! Want to break a stun better hit those triggers MULTIPLE times and HOPE you don't get slaughtered. Want to do a Sigal better do it multiple times to make sure you got it.

Now I don't care if I complete it right now or EVER at this point. To me it's not worth the frustration and the DPS addition you get with BIS weapons while nice isn't game breaking.

Junipus · November 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

No amount of guides or help can get you a VMA weapon. Only luck can do that. I have cleared this on every class, with several flawless runs, since about a month after it launched. I dont need help clearing the arena, I need help with an archaic random number generator that has no business in a modern game.

I think you are missing the main issue. For the record, a token system requiring 100 runs would be better than the status quo, which is pure RNG and a huge loot table. That is the problem with RNG. Even in a really big loot table like this, a lot of people will get pretty much everything they want in 50-60 runs, and say there is no problem.

However, there are people like myself that are well in excess of this and cant get the weapon they are after. Replayability is one thing, but a grind with no end in sight is quite another. I am no stranger to a grind, I have been playing RPGs for almost 30 years. That being said, every other grind I have done has foreseeable end at some point. This place does not. Statistically, it is possible to run this place a million times and not get what you are after, which is a huge problem. Sure it's really unlikely, but it's possible.

I have a guild mate that has only cleared this place a handful of times, and he got 2 sharp infernos in one run. Compare that to Streak One, arguably the best VMA player on the planet, who didnt get his sharp inferno until over an estimated 1,000 runs. People might not believe he ran it that much, but I tend to believe it. Mostly because when he is online he is nearly always in that place and because I dont know how you get that good without running it 1,000 times.

RNG is fine and all for a lot of things, but there needs to be some system in place where you can get what you need after a reasonable amount of runs. That is all we want. Some sort of safety valve to ensure you dont fall on the far side of the bell curve and want to rage quite.

Some people might end up at the far end of the bell curve, but the end comes when they get their weapons or the stop trying.

My questions were aimed in general at people who posit a token system without actually giving it any more thought other than "I want a token system, waah!" or those who give it some thought and outline without considering others who will inevitably want something more.

I'm up to around 50-60 runs by now I think so while not the same level as others, am still looking at a never ending grind for the weapon I'm after before I can sensibly say "never again" so I'm approaching this from a perspective of running it forever until I get my desired drop. Also after seeing yet another thread on the same underlying issue when it makes little practical sense for ZOS to change their whole underlying gameplay concept (currently focused around promoting/forcing replayability) gets a bit old, and sometimes requires reiteration of reality despite the best efforts of my drama siren.

ForsakenSin · November 2016

I wish they made VMSA 2 man content i would love to have something to farm and grind with a buddy then solo it alone

Lukums1 · November 2016

redspecter23 wrote: »

Lukums1 wrote: »

Don't agree with anything OP said.

Git Gud is in order here.

We already said the token system is bad and I doubt it will ever come.
Thread after thread after thread ... can't say I'm surprised

Says the guy that got shapened + precise one handers on his first run of the event. Join the ranks of the unlucky and see if you still say "Git Gud" Some people are "Gud" but just can't beat RNG

To be fair it was a bit of a joke. The Git Gud statement.

And yes sharpen dagger and precise dagger first run was a LOL fest (which I had these weapons already mind you).

I have all the weapons with all the traits I agree I'm very very lucky. BUT.

To see a token system or weapons in vendors I dunno I ain't a fan.

You run it 1000 times if you get it you get it if not ah well. There would be way more backlash I think from people who ran it 1000 times and finally got their weapons then running it 100 times for 100 tokens to buy what they wanted.

NO staff have commented on such changes and to be fair if nothing has been said for over a year now with no hints into even making slight changes it is what it is. I doubt anyone will see any changes to this arena in relation to mechanics or RNG drop rates.

We knew for many months with things wrong even with general mechanics as mentioned above the ice platforms is my biggest issue which I normally just jump now... not the point.
Spores appearing in the field on 7, I wait for 2-3 seconds at most for them to explode before moving in that comes with practice my point is nothing is getting changed and another forum post isn't going to do anything but fuel more people to have their own cry about things they believe isn't fair.

That is all.

Luke