Remove Gear Levels. Yea or Nay?

lardvader · November 2016

Other (please explain)

I always though it would be nice if we could make scaleable gear but to craft this you need to use all the materials required for every lvl it is scaleable to.

It would be expensive but universal.

pattyLtd · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

-

AuldWolf wrote: »

A lot of the votes on this are going to be no. Sadly, it's obvious that not many of the actual players even come to these forums, just the disenfranchised hardcore who're pushing ZOS to make the game how they want it (which is the mirror image of what happened with Champions Online, leading to that title's ultimate death).

Even teso-rp.com is gone at this point. I think with the world bosses and duel changes, ZOS took a step too far down the same sordid path that Champions Online did. I'm going to stick with this game for as long as it's around, but really, they need to connect with their players with in-game polls (they do have an interface they can pop-up to get the attention of players) to find out what most people really want. If they don't, I worry they'll follow a hardcore path and that'll be that for ESO.

Most players these days just want to play their own way, they want to have fun. That's why a large amount of those who'll play the single player Elder Scrolls games just won't touch ESO. I see people saying it on forums all the time. They just don't want to play a grindy MMO. It's not what they're into. They want to have fun.

The disenfranchised hardcore will just shut everyone down though by calling it an "I win" button. If ZOS listens? Well, it'll be Champions Online all over again.

I watched exactly this happen to CO. And we tried to warn Cryptic, too.

We really tried to save CO.

At this point, I'm just feeling kind of jaded. I think it's going to take more failed MMOs and terrible business decisions before the suits learn how to make a popular MMO again. ESO will just be another corpse left along the wayside of that journey if it doesn't change and adapt. I'm worried though (with the world bosses and duelling changes) that they're just sticking their heads in the sand and consuming barrels of remember berries.

Sometimes it's hard to watch because ESO, like CO, has so much potential and I'm going to be really sad to see it go when it does. And I'm going to know exactly why it went, too. It's really frustrating.

Must be awesome to be so knowledgable about what is going to happen in the future and also what most players want.
I don't really see how anything they changed so far since release can be interpreted as "following a hardcore path" but who am i.

Eventually it will probably go down yes but then again everything does besides maybe WOW.

Andohir · November 2016

The whole profession system would have to be adapted too. Removing levels from items would cause the need for another system to differ between weaker and stronger items. Tying progression of harvesting and item-making to overall skill level only, would make it necessary to also increase the overall level beyond 50 when new tiers and ressources are implemented in future. This could have worked easier pre 1T but now the type of ressource nodes no longer relate to the zones but to character level and passive skill level only.

Currently for a possible new tier just the cp limit has to be raised and an additional skill point has to be added to the passive refining skills. If there were no item levels at all, crafting-tiers wouldn't make much sense anymore. Just like soul stones, one type only for any level. 1 type of ore, leather, cloth and wood. Alchemy, Enchanting and Provisioning probably would have a lot of useless mats too, when there's only one meal, drink, few types of glyphs and potions that all scale with character progression. Such change would lead to a huge simplification and would also make the plus crafting-bag pretty meaningless.

For diversity purpose it'd be better to make the skins and appearances of lower tier items usable at higher levels with some sort of wardrobe system.

AlnilamE · November 2016

Other (please explain)

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Remove CP gear levels but keep 1-49

This is kind of what I would suggest. Not remove them completely, but reduce them to maybe 2 tiers. One for CP 1-79 and 1 for CP 80-160 (or 1-100 and 101-160). That would simplify things for crafters.

BlanketFort · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

idk · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

AuldWolf wrote: »

A lot of the votes on this are going to be no. Sadly, it's obvious that not many of the actual players even come to these forums, just the disenfranchised hardcore who're pushing ZOS to make the game how they want it (which is the mirror image of what happened with Champions Online, leading to that title's ultimate death).

Even teso-rp.com is gone at this point. I think with the world bosses and duel changes, ZOS took a step too far down the same sordid path that Champions Online did. I'm going to stick with this game for as long as it's around, but really, they need to connect with their players with in-game polls (they do have an interface they can pop-up to get the attention of players) to find out what most people really want. If they don't, I worry they'll follow a hardcore path and that'll be that for ESO.

Most players these days just want to play their own way, they want to have fun. That's why a large amount of those who'll play the single player Elder Scrolls games just won't touch ESO. I see people saying it on forums all the time. They just don't want to play a grindy MMO. It's not what they're into. They want to have fun.

The disenfranchised hardcore will just shut everyone down though by calling it an "I win" button. If ZOS listens? Well, it'll be Champions Online all over again.

I watched exactly this happen to CO. And we tried to warn Cryptic, too.

We really tried to save CO.

At this point, I'm just feeling kind of jaded. I think it's going to take more failed MMOs and terrible business decisions before the suits learn how to make a popular MMO again. ESO will just be another corpse left along the wayside of that journey if it doesn't change and adapt. I'm worried though (with the world bosses and duelling changes) that they're just sticking their heads in the sand and consuming barrels of remember berries.

Sometimes it's hard to watch because ESO, like CO, has so much potential and I'm going to be really sad to see it go when it does. And I'm going to know exactly why it went, too. It's really frustrating.

@AuldWolf

I'd agree that he poll will not truly reflect the gaming community or even the forum community merely due to its design. Statistically polls in forums are junk science. However, it has zero to do with how many gamers actually visit the forums.

Forum mostly made up of disenfranchised hardcore wanting their day? Lol, forums are full of hardcore forum users but not as much hard odd players. Many are disenfranchised, not all.

It does appear you may be one of the disenfranchised.

TBH. CO is not in the same league as ESO. However it's also 7 years old which is advanced age for a game of it's type.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

bellanca6561n · November 2016

Other (please explain)

I really liked some of these responses, particularly Nestor's because I'd like to be able to choose the look of my armor based on material not level.

But the best solution I've seen is Lord of the Rings Online's legendary weapon system that allows you to update lower level weapons to higher levels.

This gets into the whole realm of reforging and I've seen a lot of well thought out suggestions posted that even a modest reforging system could address.

idk · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

Galwylin · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

While I hate to grind as much as anyone else, there is satisfaction in it at the end. So, it's not grinding simply for the sake of grinding but to feel the feeling of accomplishment. Not everyone cares about that feeling and that's okay. I assure you, grinding does not kill games unless it's solely for the sake of grind with no result afterwards.

My original suggestion, which I already submitted, was simply to make gear sets into costumes. You want to look a certain way, grind for all the pieces and get rewarded for that work with the choice to look like that forever. That takes care of the looks of sub level gear artwork. Another suggestion I would make concerning champion levels is to do away with these ten level jumps. Level 50 plain gear will get you through to to say CP50. Then to CP100 then to CP160. Perhaps as a nod to crafters, they can alter their gear up through those stages for minor look improvements. Maybe with some minor stat improvements but nothing that non-crafters can't survive without. Just to bring your crafting skill in to make life during those mini jumps a little easier.

If I'm not mistaken, that's what Warcraft did after I left. They made their old gear look obtainable again without having to gimp yourself wearing it. MMOs are notorious for leaving past gear artwork in the dust to only be seen by the new or alt player again. Eventually, they usually get lost to the past completely. But the gear progression still has to remain as you don't want to empty the world. If you have the same gear you will be wearing forever obtain at an early level, what would you log in for? You already have the gear you will ever need. You're just going to work on achievements? Buy upgrades to your horse? Does your guild meet up so often that you don't have time for farming? It just seems to me a lot of people don't want to devote time to the game. Which is fine but how are those that do get their reward for doing so? Achievement points?

No one seems to give a good reason to do away with gear level except to relieve themselves from being forced to play the game. Remember, there has to be balance. If a once a month player can do everything as well as a daily player then there is no even reward. If gear loses its level, then how will it be balanced? Critter will start doing damage that ignores armor? Why not, the players are ignoring it. That's not as some would have you believe thinking people should play as I do but that a good game tries to be balanced in all things. I'm afraid if the don't want to work for anything player (not saying there are any here but they exist) get everything they wish then I'm going to be punished by having a world that becomes so hostile that I won't be logging in either. The accusers are then wanting everyone to play as THEY do and so far, I think the game is pretty spectacular as is. Some small adjustment here and there perhaps. Hopefully not another one that caters to one specific type of play that everyone has to adapt or find something else.

My biggest worry again is the balance issue. If gear hasn't any meaning then by definition, shouldn't I be able to run around naked and do just fine? After all, isn't that a valid playing choice? I repeat, is this about making the game fun or removing the need to actually play the game? Because I'm not getting what's not fun about collecting gear to make yourself better. You swing your weapon to improve your skill, is that next to go? You're trying to get to one place or another and critters keep attacking, is that next to go? Having to repair your gear can be a hassle, is that next? Why do we need a bank? Aren't we heroes with limitless pocket space? What about these imagined levels that teach you to play? Wouldn't it be more fun to roll up a toon at CP160 and do just fine in Vets with your Soul Shriven rags? Yeah, some people probably do. I'm not seeing the stopping point for the desire to have fun that doesn't in the end destroy the very fun we're looking for.

Just my opinion. Too much grind is bad but no reward is much, much worse.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

So you believe an optional gear change system is sufficient ?
People will try new things all the time anyway...thus always a gear/mat requirement
OK. Thats a fair point of view and I hopes it actually turns out that way.

What I fear is a FoTM situation where certain gear sets become dominant and nobody budges.
We know ZOS is incapable of properly balancing combat, so one set will always be best.
Unless ZOS actaully get a handle on how to make all gear equally desirable (or undesirable).

PLus what happens when you have all sets ?
Why would you need more ?

idk · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

So you believe an optional gear change system is sufficient ?
People will try new things all the time anyway...thus always a gear/mat requirement
OK. Thats a fair point of view and I hopes it actually turns out that way.

What I fear is a FoTM situation where certain gear sets become dominant and nobody budges.
We know ZOS is incapable of properly balancing combat, so one set will always be best.
Unless ZOS actaully get a handle on how to make all gear equally desirable (or undesirable).

PLus what happens when you have all sets ?
Why would you need more ?

Do I believe an optional gear change system is sufficient? I think it's fine as it is.

Zos changes something every 3 months that affects gear for something. We also have gear repair at the vendor as a gold sink.

Additionally, it is matts for pots that are the only matts that drive the economy my. Few craft any gear these days after they get good dropped sets. No need to artificially inflate need for certain matts.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

So you believe an optional gear change system is sufficient ?
People will try new things all the time anyway...thus always a gear/mat requirement
OK. Thats a fair point of view and I hopes it actually turns out that way.

What I fear is a FoTM situation where certain gear sets become dominant and nobody budges.
We know ZOS is incapable of properly balancing combat, so one set will always be best.
Unless ZOS actaully get a handle on how to make all gear equally desirable (or undesirable).

PLus what happens when you have all sets ?
Why would you need more ?

Do I believe an optional gear change system is sufficient? I think it's fine as it is.

Zos changes something every 3 months that affects gear for something. We also have gear repair at the vendor as a gold sink.

Additionally, it is matts for pots that are the only matts that drive the economy my. Few craft any gear these days after they get good dropped sets. No need to artificially inflate need for certain matts.

/sighs
I guess you validated my point.

Acid_Glow · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

No keep it as is don't ruin a good thing.

Iselin · November 2016

Let gear level-up to match your level.

Does everyone saying no in this thread realize that with bolstering everywhere, as long as your gear is not >5 levels below your level, 10, 20, 30, 40 and so on are just meaningless numbers since ALL of it has the same effect once you're bolstered?

And actually, if you think it through, when you're level 20 if you have all level 20 Spriggan for example, your bolstered stats will be BETTER than when you're level 40 wearing a full level 40 set of Spriggan because the bolstering from levels 1-33 has a little bit extra to it decreasing by 3% per level until you're level 34 when the normal bolstering takes over (as evidenced by two first patches of OT on the PTS when the numbers were actually shown in your character screen - later hidden in subsequent patches and release.)

We can talk about how it would affect crafting, the economy etc., but gear levels ARE now officially meaningless. Gear SETS are the difference now. Vertical gear progression is deader than a door nail.

idk · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

So you believe an optional gear change system is sufficient ?
People will try new things all the time anyway...thus always a gear/mat requirement
OK. Thats a fair point of view and I hopes it actually turns out that way.

What I fear is a FoTM situation where certain gear sets become dominant and nobody budges.
We know ZOS is incapable of properly balancing combat, so one set will always be best.
Unless ZOS actaully get a handle on how to make all gear equally desirable (or undesirable).

PLus what happens when you have all sets ?
Why would you need more ?

Do I believe an optional gear change system is sufficient? I think it's fine as it is.

Zos changes something every 3 months that affects gear for something. We also have gear repair at the vendor as a gold sink.

Additionally, it is matts for pots that are the only matts that drive the economy my. Few craft any gear these days after they get good dropped sets. No need to artificially inflate need for certain matts.

/sighs
I guess you validated my point.

You make zero sense.

idk · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

Iselin wrote: »

Does everyone saying no in this thread realize that with bolstering everywhere, as long as your gear is not >5 levels below your level, 10, 20, 30, 40 and so on are just meaningless numbers since ALL of it has the same effect once you're bolstered?

Not even. Finished leveling a character with gear crafted at lvl 35. Could have gone a full 20 levels without an issue.

Yes, stats dropped but was not an issue.

Rune_Relic · November 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

BlanketFort wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Not staight forward and there is lots of collateral.

1. material levels
2. vertical progression (power)

Options.
1. Armour styles are tied to location via a local crafting station that requires the use of local materials to create the local set.
2. Horizontal progression. Lots of build options and easy alt transfers are instantly opened up and grind/frustration removed.

It goes back to the argument of ..exactly how many times over do I have to grind or pay for the same thing ?
Why is once not enough ?

My rain coat still works as a rain coat unless it gets really old and starts to fall apart.
Buts thats degradation and not able to perform at the same level rather than performing better than the original.

A the end of the day it comes down to vertical vs horizontal progression.
Easy choice and multiple accessable options vs power and power gaps.

I would advise replacing LEVEL with AGE.
That way people still have to replace gear and keep the economy/crafting moving.
It also gives the people a chance to change build while they are at it

I envision a system where gear can be repaired often (usage/repair) but never quite reaches the full stats it had when new (age/degradation).

Wait wait wait hold up...
so... this would only mean that after hitting 160 CP, after finally having found all perfect trait pieces, the armor will continue to age/degrade thus forcing us to go and grind it again? What? Because that's how I imagine your solution to be. The gear, following your logic, will never stop aging. We will have to keep grinding and/or crafting new gear.
Please no.

Well the choice is new players do all the gear grinding (levelling) and capped vets do none.
Or you spread the love across everyone (aging).
I am not talking about changing gear ever day, week or even month.
But at sometime between 1-12 months.
Rather than raising the gear cap and forcing everyone to rebuild anyway.

The ecomomy and crafting relies on the requirement for mats.
The mats fill the requirement for gear/potions/enchantments.
If nobody changes their gear...the economy stops...because nobody needs anything.
So like it or not.....the gear levelling drives the economy..providing new players keep coming.
Demand drives supply.
Youre removing armour from the equation with non crafted instant drops.
Which leaves only alchemy and enchanting.

If you want a strong economy...you need a strong demand across the board yes ?
That means people need to make stuff to require parts.
Content isnt level gated anymore so its not like 2nd hand gear, hand me downs are required anymore.
Much of that is BOP anyway now so little help on the economy.
This has been stated by many of the trial runners who lost their gold earnings.

Honestly, I would rather never have to change gear ever again once I have made it.
But I also realise its crucial to drive the economy.
I would prefer the degradation to be on a quadrant curve of course.
That way it stays usable for as long as possible.

It would be more beneficial for everyone to argue on what a reasonable AGE would be.
I'll leave that one to the economy experts ..of which I am not one.

@Rune_Relic

Everyone has to do the same thing. A mad level player has already had to do what a new player has done. 1T changes little in that regard.

Aging gear is a bad idea and would only lead to a poor design.
Even at end game people change gear regularly and many have multiple sets of gear so the effect on the economy isn't needed.

So you believe an optional gear change system is sufficient ?
People will try new things all the time anyway...thus always a gear/mat requirement
OK. Thats a fair point of view and I hopes it actually turns out that way.

What I fear is a FoTM situation where certain gear sets become dominant and nobody budges.
We know ZOS is incapable of properly balancing combat, so one set will always be best.
Unless ZOS actaully get a handle on how to make all gear equally desirable (or undesirable).

PLus what happens when you have all sets ?
Why would you need more ?

Do I believe an optional gear change system is sufficient? I think it's fine as it is.

Zos changes something every 3 months that affects gear for something. We also have gear repair at the vendor as a gold sink.

Additionally, it is matts for pots that are the only matts that drive the economy my. Few craft any gear these days after they get good dropped sets. No need to artificially inflate need for certain matts.

/sighs
I guess you validated my point.

You make zero sense.

Apologies. I cant help your lack of comprehension.

Iove · November 2016

Other (please explain)

Not for crafted sets but for all other sets it would work

BlanketFort · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

@Rune_Relic

You make some fine points... but I don't know, I'm still far from convinced.
I've never had a problem with gear levels. Even after having to start all over again on both XB1 and PS4, it just never bothered me. I can't explain why, but it made sense, even after 1T.

I have this feeling that your solution would only open a can of worms. It might be better, who knows, but I'm sure there'll be a negative side effect to it, as is with system changes in MMOs -hardly anything is without its cons.
Perhaps it will be dead zones, because everyone has already started farming for perfect trait pieces since lvl 3.
On the other hand, it might solve the issue with players kicking others from the group (formed through GF) because their level was insufficient to serve their purpose- to farm gear.
Or it might have the opposite effect on the economy as opposed to what you were expecting.

Someone above has also already mentioned the impact this will have on crafting tiers. Will we just be using one type of mat for each type of armor weight? If so, ZOS would need to significantly increase the number of mats required to create gear because everyone has thousands and thousands of materials.

There are probably a dozen other scenarios of possible Good and bad outcomes if such a system were implemented in ESO. It might be better than what we have now, could be worse, or it simply wouldn't make enough of a significant difference to warrant a change.

I, personally, have no issue with the current gear levels. What I would totally want, though, is the option to change motif style on dropped sets, at the cost of gold and increased mats

Rex-Umbra · November 2016

Other (please explain)

Rather they allow you to upgrade gear each tier along with restyle.

Iselin · November 2016

Let gear level-up to match your level.

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Rather they allow you to upgrade gear each tier along with restyle AND RETRAIT.

Fixed that for you

tonemd · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

If you're grinding up a alt, all your 160 gear is waiting for you at the end. Just grind to 50 and get it over with.

Craft a low level set and let it carry you for 20 levels. No need to go changing this system at the risk of breaking something.

If you want to make a change I say make it so trait gear sets that drop should be max level and you just can't wear it until you are 50 and 160cp. Otherwise, only crafted gear for you.

Quest rewards should still drop at the level you complete the quest at.

Donum-Dei · November 2016

Yes. Get rid of levels and make all gear CP160 (or whatver the max happens to be)

Not many people like to grind @tonemd

I for one will like to experience the armor level with me as the world does. Keep the necessary materials as they are, but take down the leveling system. That is not a bad thing, it hasn't with the 12 update.

wolfydog · November 2016

No, in any game with loot, wether it be an MMO or a diablo style game, there is no point in low level sets or farming for items at a low level. You outgrow everything.

I remember even back in the days of EQ2 and WoW being level 20 and people are fighting over dungeon loot like your not gonna outgrown in a few hours or days.

nimander99 · November 2016

Yes. Get rid of levels and make all gear CP160 (or whatver the max happens to be)

If you get one character to 50 then alts should be able to equip CP 160 or current max irrespective of level, that way gear is more easily transferred between character. CP's are the new cap, since everything else is account wide gear level should be as well. Doesn't change that you still have to run quests and level for skill points and shards etc. but whynot use the gear you can craft on alts? Especially since you can no longer farm said mats.

tonemd · November 2016

No, Keep it as it is.

The early on changes to experience gain (capping the amount of XP you can get from mobs much higher in level than you), the erradication of true grinding spots, AND this change to One Tamriel dynamic PVE leveling has made questing and leveling in this game the most boring thing ever. There is no risk and it takes so long to do if you do not purposefully grind it out. A change to the gear leveling with you, or being able to immediately equip your max gear on low level alts just means that that is one less thing to strive for in this game (that is getting to level 50).

For people who run Skyrim 20 times a year I guess that's great. But for me, you'd just be ratcheting up the boringness of questing by 10%. I experienced Tamriel in fullness once on my main, through silver and gold. That was a fun experience, but once is enough. Meandering through the world at level 20 in my already fought for best in slot gear seems so pointless.

azoriangaming · November 2016

Yes. Get rid of levels and make all gear CP160 (or whatver the max happens to be)

imo either get rid of levels 1-50 or the champion system i don't understand why there is 2 leveling systems it's not required,

vamp_emily · November 2016

I'm sure glad the forum users did not develop this game.

This game would be something like:
- Install game
- Create a Max toon
- Push button to get your skyshards
- Push button to get your lore books
- Push button to get your favorite gold armor
- Push button to get your favorite Vma Weapon
- Push button to get your favorite Monster helm
-Hop on your maxed out mount

ThePaleItalian · November 2016

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm sure glad the forum users did not develop this game.

This game would be something like:
- Install game
- Create a Max toon
- Push button to get your skyshards
- Push button to get your lore books
- Push button to get your favorite gold armor
- Push button to get your favorite Vma Weapon
- Push button to get your favorite Monster helm
-Hop on your maxed out mount

Wait you forgot one

- complain constantly that no new product is coming out, when it does its buggy, game is too easy and to hard at the same time, omg this is boring I am done with you....

I think I got them all right??