Worried about my ESO investment....

Crom_CCCXVI · November 2016

I have some legitimate concerns about the state of the game I have invested massive amounts of time and some money into.
I am afraid One Tamriel has screwed it up, for PvP anyway.
The forums are full of the same complaints, and ZOS usually responds... But how do you even fix this?

You essentially turned a skilled (sort of turn based strategic combat game) into something closer to a first person shooter.
I'm trying to say combat was moves, counter moves, blocks etc.. and now as we know it is a lot of secondary damage from things other than your initial strike.

The primary attack needs to be greater than the secondary (and third) proc's. An example is, your rolling around in battle and you finally land that dizzying swing, or lava whip or whatever, and then you wait for all the other damage from your armor sets to pile on. I don't think it should be that way.
More isn't always better ESO, you should have kept it simple.

What do they do now? I'm not sure, but I hope they do something before people start leaving. (Thank goodness this is the only fantasy based MMO PvP game out there)

Alucardo · November 2016

I feel your pain. I miss the days when proc sets weren't a thing and people actually used abilities. I noticed this S+B guys don't even bother animation cancelling ransacks anymore. They just light attack and ransack because they get off enough damage that way. It's promoting lazy gameplay, and allows people not in heavy armor to pull off similar damage to those in medium, while retaining the other benefits of heavy.
It's quite evident (in PVE and PVP) that ZOS are aiming this game towards casuals. They want to make it an easier experience for them, but by doing that they've destroyed everything I enjoyed about the game. I'm sure some other veterans will agree with me there.
All my medium armor stamina characters have to use the same gear combo pretty much - velidreth/selene, clever alchemist (great for the double health), and viper. When I moved from the non-proc set setup to that I immediately noticed a difference.
With alchemist proc, my velidreth was hitting for 9-10k, and viper can proc for 7k. That's essentially 17k damage in one light attack (without the light attack damage). Selene's was hitting people for 9k before I was using Alchemist, so god knows what that's up to now.
Considering light armor and medium armor builds used to run with 20k health in PVP, I'm essentially nearly taking 100% of their health in a single attack.
Some people will say you can still play without the crutch of proc sets, but I say those people are fighting potatos. If you ever come across a GOOD player wearing these sets, the fight is going to be pretty one-sided.
When I first started PVPing, people were using sets like Willows Path. How often do you see sets like that being used now? Here I was thinking the Thieves Guild update was bad, but it's only gotten worse. Le sigh.

Beardimus · November 2016

Hmmm, I've yet to return to PvP, been busy doing other things, but was getting ready for a big focus - but i'm nervous with all this talks of auto Proc sets firing left right and center.

I've had a damn montage running this end, tooling up to combat the Stamina focused Meta of the last two Updates, finally cracked that and then it all changes!

mb10 · November 2016

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Rune_Relic · November 2016

Its pretty much been one band aid buff after another bandaid buff.
Hopefully we will get down to the nitty gritty of the core mechanics instead of just ever more over compensation patches for imbalances endemic within the design.

Next update was supposed to be a balance pass I think.
Perhaps they only had chance to chuck these sets out there and not really have any time for proper balancing.
More of a ..100s of sets work.... kind of update.

/shrugs. We'll see soon I guess.
Many of the proc sets are broken and not WAI anyway.

Junipus · November 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Amen.

Just Amen.

DeadlyRecluse · November 2016

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

You essentially turned a skilled (sort of turn based strategic combat game) into something closer to a first person shooter.
I'm trying to say combat was moves, counter moves, blocks etc.. and now as we know it is a lot of secondary damage from things other than your initial strike.

You are not wrong.

Literally my least favorite meta at the moment. At least before, when certain builds/classes were overperforming, you still had to know what to do with them.

My cat, in the right gear, can win PvP fights by walking across the keyboard (I mapped every key to either vigor or Ransack).

CapnPhoton · November 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Entitlement

If it is not absolutely 100% perfect all the time, then it is completely unacceptable.

Erock25 · November 2016

I hate proc sets but I've found increasing your health by 8-10k kind of negates the proc dmg. Yes, this means heavy is preferred.

Wreuntzylla · November 2016

You guys really have to stop it with the 'it was a skilled game' crap. Animation cancelling properly can hide any skill. There is no skill in a game where people guess at what another player is going to do rather than react to it. This is and has been for a long time a gear based game with only a tiny bit of differentiation through skill. Many people *thought* skill was involved until cheat engine was exposed and most of the "great players" either were banned, left or suddenly became painfully average...

If you hate the proc meta, you probably shouldn't delay your exit from the game. ZoS' strategy is clearly directed to pulling in a WoW sized crowd by dumbing the whole game down and making everything easy. Having good players repeatedly beat the crap out of PvErs in PvP is something they are systematically trying to weed out. How do you do that? Proc sets!!!!!!

And if you are waiting with baited breath for the balance patch, here's a lesson from a person that has been here since early launch. A ZoS balance patch does not balance the game. It changes who is overpowered. Then all the kiddies rush to that newly OP class/skill meta. So if on patch day what you play wasn't one of the favored, it ain't going to change for 3-6 more months.

Armitas · November 2016

They were working on all these new proc sets while we were complaining about velidreth and viper. The Velidreth and viper combo was even mentioned in beta and they still went forward with it. They know people don't stay here past a month and a half so they rush to make carrots to keep them here and the game suffers. They have adopted an "implement now fix it later" mentality, quantity over quality. Its very easy to see how this is going to turn out for the pvp community. Right now there is no direct competitor to ESO, but that will not last another year. They don't have much time left to restore people's faith in them.

We can see very clearly by all these proc sets and combos that combat is being developed by group with no concept or concern for what creates a quality pvp experience. We can also see that management is not securing the game from decay and allowing these things to be released. I don't see any glimmer of hope given our current heading. At least the decline will be slow and I can enjoy it for a while longer. I unsubbed because it appears my money is only going into making pvp worse.

Alucardo · November 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Of course, it has never been perfect, and nor will it be. But at the moment it's just trash compared to the old days.

Ch4mpTW · November 2016

Just quit the game OP, and play other games until the next update. Trust me me when I say that you'll be much happier, and feel much refreshed.

I used to take things like: Smooth performance, solid RNG, and lag-less games for granted prior to playing ESO. Played that P.O.S. damn near everyday for over 2 years, and finally burned out a few days ago. Got tired of anything and everything involved ESO, and now I don't even login to do my daily riding skill improvements. Let alone undaunted pledges or crafting writs. I just don't care anymore. Why should I care about something that has exhausted me emotionally and mentally, and is only out to drain every dime I earn and second of my life?

Since quitting a few days ago, my relationship with my boo is smoother and I'm arguing much less with family and friends. Let alone getting ticked off so easily by things. ESO isn't the end all and be all, OP. Don't let it get it or its community get to you. Take it easy, play some other games, watch some movies, hangout with friends from college or that you grew-up with, as you'll forget all about logging into ESO.

Oh, and remember. ZOS is a company. They want to drain you for every dollar you have, and try and keep you coming to play their product by any means. But just remember, you don't have to be 1 of the hundreds of people hooked. You can disconnect from that unbalanced grind-fest known as ESO, and have a ball playing games that actually run smoothly and look gorgeous doing so.

Excaltic · November 2016

Proc sets are not the only problem in ESO. People recently started complaining because they have one scapegoat now, though there are serveral ones that still excist:

- Insane healing of the Templar class while able to do lots of damage in PvP and have incredible sustain.
- Insane defense of Super Defense Tank builds so they can survive 50 on 1 in PvP, sustained.
- Special animation cancelling combo's to gain extra burst damage advantages in PvP
- Min/Max players that do a lot more damage / take a lot less damage due to precise Champion Points distribution
- Heavy Armor having all advantages, and no disadvantages
- Connection (ping) advantages in 1on1 situations, due to the game being made for massive hordes of players battling together in the field, cannot be fixed btw, not within the coming 10 years, until 95% of the players will have perfect internet connections.

If you want a more level playing field in PvP, the developers need to address several of these problems at once, but since that is almost impossible, since PvE uses the same skills and items, the best quick fixes they can apply are:

- Tuning battlespirit to the damage will lower damage by 3x or 4x instead of 2x (proc sets are fixed by this)
- Tuning battlespirit to lowering or capping defense of everything, both on armor as in blocking itself to prevent sustained perma block tanks
- Tuning battlespirit to lower self healing, best option is to cap the max healing per second, not lower it percentage wise, this will fix the imbalance between minor self healing of most classes and mayor self healing of breath of life.

Pirhana7_ESO · November 2016

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

I have some legitimate concerns about the state of the game I have invested massive amounts of time and some money into.
I am afraid One Tamriel has screwed it up, for PvP anyway.
The forums are full of the same complaints, and ZOS usually responds... But how do you even fix this?

You essentially turned a skilled (sort of turn based strategic combat game) into something closer to a first person shooter.
I'm trying to say combat was moves, counter moves, blocks etc.. and now as we know it is a lot of secondary damage from things other than your initial strike.

The primary attack needs to be greater than the secondary (and third) proc's. An example is, your rolling around in battle and you finally land that dizzying swing, or lava whip or whatever, and then you wait for all the other damage from your armor sets to pile on. I don't think it should be that way.
More isn't always better ESO, you should have kept it simple.

What do they do now? I'm not sure, but I hope they do something before people start leaving. (Thank goodness this is the only fantasy based MMO PvP game out there)

I agree with everything you said, but at this point pretty much the whole PVP seige warfare crowd is just waiting for Camelot Unchained to be finished next year because the game itself is being designed for just that. Just hang in there like teh rest of us and deal with Cyrodiil till then

cpuScientist · November 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Just quit the game OP, and play other games until the next update. Trust me me when I say that you'll be much happier, and feel much refreshed.

I used to take things like: Smooth performance, solid RNG, and lag-less games for granted prior to playing ESO. Played that P.O.S. damn near everyday for over 2 years, and finally burned out a few days ago. Got tired of anything and everything involved ESO, and now I don't even login to do my daily riding skill improvements. Let alone undaunted pledges or crafting writs. I just don't care anymore. Why should I care about something that has exhausted me emotionally and mentally, and is only out to drain every dime I earn and second of my life?

Since quitting a few days ago, my relationship with my boo is smoother and I'm arguing much less with family and friends. Let alone getting ticked off so easily by things. ESO isn't the end all and be all, OP. Don't let it get it or its community get to you. Take it easy, play some other games, watch some movies, hangout with friends from college or that you grew-up with, as you'll forget all about logging into ESO.

Oh, and remember. ZOS is a company. They want to drain you for every dollar you have, and try and keep you coming to play their product by any means. But just remember, you don't have to be 1 of the hundreds of people hooked. You can disconnect from that unbalanced grind-fest known as ESO, and have a ball playing games that actually run smoothly and look gorgeous doing so.

Omg lol BUTTON PLEASE

Jamini · November 2016

Excaltic wrote: »

- Tuning battlespirit to the damage will lower damage by 3x or 4x instead of 2x (proc sets are fixed by this)
- Tuning battlespirit to lowering or capping defense of everything, both on armor as in blocking itself to prevent sustained perma block tanks
- Tuning battlespirit to lower self healing, best option is to cap the max healing per second, not lower it percentage wise, this will fix the imbalance between minor self healing of most classes and mayor self healing of breath of life.

Hello Dragonknight, my old friend. My, how OP you look with these changes! As a DK, I approve of your ideas, let's implement them immediately so I can be even more FOTM.

All you are doing here is trading one OP class for another. I've been dev in charge of other mods and games. My words for you, Sera!

"You have no idea what you are doing, what you are talking about, and your ideas would probably make the game just as imbalanced if not more-so than they are currently."

If I had a dollar for every idiot that thought they could just waltz in and suggest balance changes that would fix everything, I'd be a billionaire. Quite frankly, you and I have no idea what is "overpowered", "overtuned", or "underperforming". We do not have the data to back up assertions we make, and perceptions made by the customer are heavily biased by their own preferences.

To be frank, balance is impossible. There will always be a most effective tactic. There will always be twinks and min-maxers and borderline exploiters. There will always be kids that complain about literally everything that ever beats their "one true tactic". If you can't accept that, then perhaps you should put your effort towards chess. (first-move advantage is at least a documented, heuristics-driven thing there.)

In any competitive advantage there is only one way to improve:

Adapt, or die.
There is literally nothing in-between.

bellanca6561n · November 2016

I don't think it's wise to view time spent in an online game as an investment.

That would be a bit like calling the number of tickets you've purchased on an amusement park ride as an investment as well.

An investment implies ownership. If you look at your EULA, however, you'll see that all of your characters, all of your in-game assets, none of it belongs to you.

Online gaming is more like dating. You meet someone you hit it off with. You have some fun, even thrilling times together but it cannot stay that way.

Some online games are more like a marriage, it's true, but ESO is simply not built to be a game that encourages long term relationships

raglau · November 2016

I can only iterate what the person above me says, no game is an investment.

ESO is a game that I mainly enjoy, and I sub for 6 months at a time. But that money is not investment money, it's a fee to access a service, the same as the fee I am paying to use the hotel room I am in right now. Once you stop paying the fee, the service ends.

Gaming is a great past-time that has always been with me and always will be, but individual games come and go. Don't get too attached to them.

ThePaleItalian · November 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Just quit the game OP, and play other games until the next update. Trust me me when I say that you'll be much happier, and feel much refreshed.

I used to take things like: Smooth performance, solid RNG, and lag-less games for granted prior to playing ESO. Played that P.O.S. damn near everyday for over 2 years, and finally burned out a few days ago. Got tired of anything and everything involved ESO, and now I don't even login to do my daily riding skill improvements. Let alone undaunted pledges or crafting writs. I just don't care anymore. Why should I care about something that has exhausted me emotionally and mentally, and is only out to drain every dime I earn and second of my life?

Since quitting a few days ago, my relationship with my boo is smoother and I'm arguing much less with family and friends. Let alone getting ticked off so easily by things. ESO isn't the end all and be all, OP. Don't let it get it or its community get to you. Take it easy, play some other games, watch some movies, hangout with friends from college or that you grew-up with, as you'll forget all about logging into ESO.

Oh, and remember. ZOS is a company. They want to drain you for every dollar you have, and try and keep you coming to play their product by any means. But just remember, you don't have to be 1 of the hundreds of people hooked. You can disconnect from that unbalanced grind-fest known as ESO, and have a ball playing games that actually run smoothly and look gorgeous doing so.

Retired until your next "Champ bruh soloed dis" Which is impressive, however, if a game, or anything for that matter is causing a strain in relationships, the issue might be you....not ESO.

On the bolded part.... Please don't sound like a jaded ex who trashes the game. You will be back.

SHADOW2KK · November 2016

Sorry, this game is nothing like a shooter, different skills, different genre.

Go play HC on BF4 or BF1 where real skill comes into play, FF is on, you have to aim, bullet drop etc, then come back and compare.

FireCowCommando · November 2016

ESO will never be a skill based mmo under wrobels leadership, you might have a glimpse of it once or twice a year at best.

Please go elsewhere if you want to see competitive gameplay.

bellanca6561n · November 2016

Sorry, had to take a break there to invest in lunch.

To echo @FireCowCommando you cannot have a skill based game when armor ceases to be armor.

Armor like this, for example, is more a companion you wear who fires off their own sets of spells you can encourage but do not control.

And if you cannot control the power or nature of your very own attacks...well...you've entered a realm of fantasy game play, literally.

ThePaleItalian · November 2016

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Sorry, had to take a break there to invest in lunch.

To echo @FireCowCommando you cannot have a skill based game when armor ceases to be armor.

Armor like this, for example, is more a companion you wear who fires off their own sets of spells you can encourage but do not control.

And if you cannot control the power or nature of your very own attacks...well...you've entered a realm of fantasy game play, literally.

Since you post this constantly I am going to reply constantly.

We can breath fire continuously, grow wings and leap towards an enemy, summon atronachs, and clanfears, summon storms, even a rapid fire turrent.....that guess what.... magically fires by itself...

This arguement is pointless, you kill the monsters that used those skills, so now you have a chance to do the same. Now don't get me wrong, they need a serious overhaul. Hopefully the new balance patch fixes some of them. But we are playing a fantasy game.

bellanca6561n · November 2016

@ThePaleItalian

Yes, it may seem as if do, plus my joke about over-stressed game designers at Zenimax losing their minds due to over-work really, really failed to land

But there is a genuine distinction here that has nothing to do with magic.

If you control your attacks, no matter the special effects that accompany them, you are employing skill. Yes, there are statistical factors that may increase the power of each skill, such as crit, within a range.

But if some attacks are triggered as a result of others a portion of the time, now you've entered another realm entirely. You may succeed in combat due to no action or decision on your part at all apart from what you chose to wear.

Magic does not exempt you, as a game designer, from developing and adhering to a coherent set of physical laws, even though your alternate physics does not exist in our physical world.

If you fail to accomplish this, then you cannot have a skill based game. And this is what is underlying so many threads here isn't it?

ThePaleItalian · November 2016

bellanca6561n wrote: »

@ThePaleItalian

Yes, it may seem as if do, plus my joke about over-stressed game designers at Zenimax losing their minds due to over-work really, really failed to land

But there is a genuine distinction here that has nothing to do with magic.

If you control your attacks, no matter the special effects that accompany them, you are employing skill. Yes, there are statistical factors that may increase the power of each skill, such as crit, within a range.

But if some attacks are triggered as a result of others a portion of the time, now you've entered another realm entirely. You may succeed in combat due to no action or decision on your part at all apart from what you chose to wear.

Magic does not exempt you, as a game designer, from developing and adhering to a coherent set of physical laws, even though your alternate physics does not exist in our physical world.

If you fail to accomplish this, then you cannot have a skill based game. And this is what is underlying so many threads here isn't it?

I will say this to start.... I feel that they should limit you to a single proc set, or at least have stuff proc 5% of the time, I like some of new sets that the 5 piece is just a straight up damage or crit increase.

I feel bad for game designers, they have to try to appease a gamer base anymore that, lets be honest, will never be satisfied. Just check the forums on any site for any game. I think their biggest mistake is trying to make everything "cool" or "flashy" which doesn't work for many people, like yourself.

I run engine guardian, its fun, sometimes it pops health when I am full health or magicka when I am full, but hey, works for me.

Joke didn't fail, I promise, I got the joke, but I couldn't pass up the comment on the fantasy aspect you mentioned, but I understand more now of where you are coming from.

altemriel · November 2016

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

I have some legitimate concerns about the state of the game I have invested massive amounts of time and some money into.
I am afraid One Tamriel has screwed it up, for PvP anyway.
The forums are full of the same complaints, and ZOS usually responds... But how do you even fix this?

You essentially turned a skilled (sort of turn based strategic combat game) into something closer to a first person shooter.
I'm trying to say combat was moves, counter moves, blocks etc.. and now as we know it is a lot of secondary damage from things other than your initial strike.

The primary attack needs to be greater than the secondary (and third) proc's. An example is, your rolling around in battle and you finally land that dizzying swing, or lava whip or whatever, and then you wait for all the other damage from your armor sets to pile on. I don't think it should be that way.
More isn't always better ESO, you should have kept it simple.

What do they do now? I'm not sure, but I hope they do something before people start leaving. (Thank goodness this is the only fantasy based MMO PvP game out there)

I agree with you totally, the proc sets:
- should not stack with other proc sets
- have longer cooldown
- have damage nerfed to max 20%

alexkdd99 · November 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Just quit the game OP, and play other games until the next update. Trust me me when I say that you'll be much happier, and feel much refreshed.

I used to take things like: Smooth performance, solid RNG, and lag-less games for granted prior to playing ESO. Played that P.O.S. damn near everyday for over 2 years, and finally burned out a few days ago. Got tired of anything and everything involved ESO, and now I don't even login to do my daily riding skill improvements. Let alone undaunted pledges or crafting writs. I just don't care anymore. Why should I care about something that has exhausted me emotionally and mentally, and is only out to drain every dime I earn and second of my life?

Since quitting a few days ago, my relationship with my boo is smoother and I'm arguing much less with family and friends. Let alone getting ticked off so easily by things. ESO isn't the end all and be all, OP. Don't let it get it or its community get to you. Take it easy, play some other games, watch some movies, hangout with friends from college or that you grew-up with, as you'll forget all about logging into ESO.

Oh, and remember. ZOS is a company. They want to drain you for every dollar you have, and try and keep you coming to play their product by any means. But just remember, you don't have to be 1 of the hundreds of people hooked. You can disconnect from that unbalanced grind-fest known as ESO, and have a ball playing games that actually run smoothly and look gorgeous doing so.

Lol got to love when people start taking about zos trying to drain every dime you have. This game has by far been the least money hungry. People must think the world is some utopia where everything is free.

This game is fairly close to f2p, since you can buy the game for next to nothing now. Ever played dcuo? That game is a huge money drain. Play any of those f2p Korean games and you will NEVER accuse eso of being greedy or p2w.

People got use to the incredibly cheap things in the crown store so when the prices rose to be more in line with what they should be people threw a fit.

To op.
I don't play as much as I use to but I am sure it will pick back up once they drop some more content or make any sort of significant change.

I also would not expect proc sets to go away as they seem to be becoming more common. Best to hope for is some Balance to be added to them. Main one comes to my mind is how you can effectively taunt another player, how does that work?

I personally have stopped playing and came back a few times, but I tend to do that with most games. Hopefully we will get that balance patch before long, if nothing else to change things up some.

As sometime else said balancing in this game is just making one thing overpowered while nerfing another, but I have come to accept that.

bellanca6561n · November 2016

@ThePaleItalian

I feel badly for the designers too, which is why I don't much care for the name calling and the incorporation of the name of a member of the development team into the jargon of the game, and not in a nice way.

This was a hard lesson for me, personally, as I came from a pure online simulation - Air Warrior - to Ultima Online which I only began playing because it was required by my employers, Origin Systems, Inc.

I know what you're thinking....tough life, that :'(

But when I realized that the dev team saw their game world as a simulation as well - which is why they were VIOLENTLY opposed to the addition of Trammel (UO's PvE safe zone) in the Renaissance Edition - I began to understand that magic is just like any weapon or ability. It's simply more imaginative

So then you're left with how to add fresh content without going too far out there. Even magic has to make sense after all.

I'd come at it from systems design evolution and development rather than itemization but I'm not there. I have no idea whatsoever of the limitations they face or the scheduling pressures they're under.

But I poke fun at it all in my own way because I can see that many players are not happy and I know they're going to have to rethink many of these things.

NoMoreChillies · November 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Truth +1

Cant wait to see QQ pvp posts in 2017 claiming this was the "good ole days"

FireCowCommando · November 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Everyone misses the "good old days" but most of you were moaning about PVP on the forums every single day before lol

Truth +1

Cant wait to see QQ pvp posts in 2017 claiming this was the "good ole days"

Truth +2

The PvP playerbase is constantly quitting to move to other games, for the newer players, this would be the best times.