I was being goofy with the customer class thing, I obviously meant custom class

Think about it, pick one Templar Class line, one from Dragon Knight and one from Sorc or Nightblade and make you own class. Don't you guys think that would be pretty sweet and would make for a wider variety of 'classes'?

The problem in this is the lack of diversity, if all tree become available then one way or another there will be builds that outcome any other one in a given role and there will be no incentive outside of trolling or RP to make a toon outside of those boundaries to perform in the game. Of course st first it would be fun but after a while it would become flavorless.

I don't think that having this option would make the meta player's any more 'meta'. There are always going to be those players in MMO's who are in it for the soul reason of Min/Max, adding this won't all of the sudden create an entire new crowd of Min/Maxers.

It will just add that Scrollsy feel to the game, that cool feeling you got when steping off the boat in Sedya Neen or leaving the Imperial City Sewers for the first time in Oblivion.

Need to change Class name to the Wrobel. All proc abilities, zero cooldown times, and all enemies within a 50m range get -20% wpn dmg and -100%magicka dmg.

I dont want an initial custom class.. rather the choices you make in game decide what skills you have?

This will never happen though, the game would have to be completely redone


i would like to see (this is more feasible) some morph to the exsisting classes. Basically when you get to level 50 in all of your main skills you can morph your class and choose between two morphs that open up a final skill line.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

This suggestion has been made enthusiastically before. There are generally two objections that I just don't understand.

1- build diversity
Eso player logic - 'if we are given more ways to build our character we will all choose to play in a more similar way.'

The argument seems illogical because currently there are 4 classes and all of them are popular. If people only chose to play the most meta build then only one class would get used.

While removing class restrictions from skill lines could introduce powerful new builds, there is no reason to think one build would dominate because other skill line combinations could counter it.

2- prioritise balance
Eso player logic - 'the classes are not perfectly balanced at the moment, so ZOS should balance the game before adding something new.'

If class restrictions are removed then players can balance their own characters by choosing the skill lines that suit them (and avoid underperforming skill lines). Skills and skill lines will still need to be balanced, but seperating skill lines from their class (a class is amalgamation of 3 skill lines) will make it simpler to tweak specific skills.

TLDR- two objections (the problem of meta builds and a lack of balance) are complaints that are common on these forums, but these are not arguments against removing class restrictions.

@Jim_Pipp

This suggestion has never had a large following. Maybe a few enthusiastic about it.

1. The argumen that the more choice you have means actually less choice is sound.

There will be one build that will trump them all. Not playing that build you are will be considered weak sauce and he removed from groups. Extremely logical.

2. Yes, if class restrictions were removed it would be instant balance (for those who choose the correct singular build). It would also be BORING VANILLA and become a most pointless game to play due to the lack of real diversity.

It's ironic but it's the way it works.

I think this is a cynical view (not saying it isn't true) carried over from your experiences with other MMO's. I think the ESO crowd is different from other MMO crowds, there is a ton, not going to posit a made up stat since we just don't know, but a lot of players who play this game the way they want to play and not the meta way or to be tops.

There will always be those people in MMO's and giving them one more reason to be the bestest isn't a reason not to implement this.

I mean, think about it, wouldn't it be iconic not to pick a class at character creation but to select a class that feels right to the Vestige upon leaving Coldharbour for the first time! It would add to that feel we all got in Morrowind and Oblivion.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

This suggestion has been made enthusiastically before. There are generally two objections that I just don't understand.

1- build diversity
Eso player logic - 'if we are given more ways to build our character we will all choose to play in a more similar way.'

The argument seems illogical because currently there are 4 classes and all of them are popular. If people only chose to play the most meta build then only one class would get used.

While removing class restrictions from skill lines could introduce powerful new builds, there is no reason to think one build would dominate because other skill line combinations could counter it.

2- prioritise balance
Eso player logic - 'the classes are not perfectly balanced at the moment, so ZOS should balance the game before adding something new.'

If class restrictions are removed then players can balance their own characters by choosing the skill lines that suit them (and avoid underperforming skill lines). Skills and skill lines will still need to be balanced, but seperating skill lines from their class (a class is amalgamation of 3 skill lines) will make it simpler to tweak specific skills.

TLDR- two objections (the problem of meta builds and a lack of balance) are complaints that are common on these forums, but these are not arguments against removing class restrictions.

@Jim_Pipp

This suggestion has never had a large following. Maybe a few enthusiastic about it.

1. The argumen that the more choice you have means actually less choice is sound.

There will be one build that will trump them all. Not playing that build you are will be considered weak sauce and he removed from groups. Extremely logical.

2. Yes, if class restrictions were removed it would be instant balance (for those who choose the correct singular build). It would also be BORING VANILLA and become a most pointless game to play due to the lack of real diversity.

It's ironic but it's the way it works.

I think this is a cynical view (not saying it isn't true) carried over from your experiences with other MMO's. I think the ESO crowd is different from other MMO crowds, there is a ton, not going to posit a made up stat since we just don't know, but a lot of players who play this game the way they want to play and not the meta way or to be tops.

There will always be those people in MMO's and giving them one more reason to be the bestest isn't a reason not to implement this.

I mean, think about it, wouldn't it be iconic not to pick a class at character creation but to select a class that feels right to the Vestige upon leaving Coldharbour for the first time! It would add to that feel we all got in Morrowind and Oblivion.

Cynical or not, it's true.

Currently every class can bring enough to the game to warrant being in a top raid group. However, the builds available to each have little wiggle room to reach the appropriate numbers.

4 classes each with stam and magika builds brings us to 8 top builds (basically.).

Eliminate classes and we have 2 builds, one magika and one stamina.

Less color. Less choice.

I'm not saying eliminate classes, in fact I think they should keep adding new classes (in line with the classic classes that were available in the first 4 Scrolls games), I'm saying also give us the option to pick from the three class skill trees of the 4 current classes to make a custom class.

So imagine leaving Colharbour for the first time as the Vestige and a Screen pops up that gives you the option to select Templar, Nightblade, Dragonknight, Sorcerer OR a Custom Class.

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

This suggestion has been made enthusiastically before. There are generally two objections that I just don't understand.

1- build diversity
Eso player logic - 'if we are given more ways to build our character we will all choose to play in a more similar way.' The argument seems illogical because currently there are 4 classes and all of them are popular. If people only chose to play the most meta build then only one class would get used.

While removing class restrictions from skill lines could introduce powerful new builds, there is no reason to think one build would dominate because other skill line combinations could counter it.

2- prioritise balance
Eso player logic - 'the classes are not perfectly balanced at the moment, so ZOS should balance the game before adding something new.' If class restrictions are removed then players can balance their own characters by choosing the skill lines that suit them (and avoid underperforming skill lines). Skills and skill lines will still need to be balanced, but seperating skill lines from their class (a class is amalgamation of 3 skill lines) will make it simpler to tweak specific skills.

TLDR- two objections (the problem of meta builds and a lack of balance) are complaints that are common on these forums, but these are not arguments against removing class restrictions.

@Jim_Pipp

The idea with the build diversity argument is that each class has different strengths and weaknesses or, in other words, off-balance. The most commonly referenced example of this is Templars' advantage in direct healing vs DKs' superior mitigation. The different aspects of each class are inherently off-balance, but each class is off-balanced differently, such that the aggregate capabilities of the classes are roughly equal, or balanced. Everything else in the game the players can decide to use to further tilt or compensate for the inherent imbalances in their class. More options is more options. The trouble comes when we introduce the player and whatever mindset they have adopted toward how to play the game. They could just take a class, accept it's inherent flaws and adjust it with gear etc, or they could pick a role and tailor-make a class and gear combination to best fit this. The players who pick a role and then fill it have been widely successful due to how effective their method is. When they share their experiences and build, others try to emulate them, thus creating a "meta". These metas often maximize their ability to fill their role with what they can control, but they can easily end up not utilizing a skill line to its fullest. If they were able to, you can be certain to sacrifice a underused skill-line for a more advantageous one, thus increasing the effectiveness of their build to fulfill its role, thus making it even more desirable as a meta. That is the thought process behind number one, and it leads directly into number 2: balance.

Balance is a vague, unitless metric to describe how well different things perform against each other. If one combination is able to far out-perform another, they are off-balance. It is VERYVERYVERYVERY difficult to balance a game with multiple modes of play (a very broad but perhaps not all-encompassing partition is PvP and PvE) because everything is intertwined and depends on everything else. If we start with the assumption that the game is off balance, and further assume that that imbalance is due to the effectiveness of designing for a role and that these build are not absolutely optimized, such that one skill line from a different class would further increase its power, then the OP's suggestion would further off-balance the game by leading to stronger metas and thus more desirable metas. That is why people say balance the game first, THEN add this feature, but they could conceivably be done concurrently. Interestingly enough, this leads back into number 1. It's really two facets of the same argument, and I think a very sound argument despite the apparent paradox.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's not goofy it's more like TES honestly but that doesn't work so well because the game attempts to mimic roles from a tradition online rpg type.

If the game really took a stronger adjustment against the trinity and roles, then it makes sense because there is no story that makes our classes meaningful otherwise than a role.

Much had to change to make TES into an MMO and classes is just one of them.

Classes have little to do with roles. Players choices make the role.

Giles this is a best the devs initial attempt to make DAOC 2 but they got rights from TES and re-slimed their original design but kept the base this the classes. That's my take not any fact as the classes don't align with TES at all.

Dragon night??
Templar??
Nightblade??

much didn't need to change at all. The basis is upon leveling the game has the same skills locked by without a class limitation. You just pick and choose from the mix with limitations on how many skill types you can pick because there are roles they wanted to incorporate. Not sure why you'd suggest otherwise as it's obvious the original base design wasn't TES j

WhiteMage wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

This suggestion has been made enthusiastically before. There are generally two objections that I just don't understand.

1- build diversity
Eso player logic - 'if we are given more ways to build our character we will all choose to play in a more similar way.' The argument seems illogical because currently there are 4 classes and all of them are popular. If people only chose to play the most meta build then only one class would get used.

While removing class restrictions from skill lines could introduce powerful new builds, there is no reason to think one build would dominate because other skill line combinations could counter it.

2- prioritise balance
Eso player logic - 'the classes are not perfectly balanced at the moment, so ZOS should balance the game before adding something new.' If class restrictions are removed then players can balance their own characters by choosing the skill lines that suit them (and avoid underperforming skill lines). Skills and skill lines will still need to be balanced, but seperating skill lines from their class (a class is amalgamation of 3 skill lines) will make it simpler to tweak specific skills.

TLDR- two objections (the problem of meta builds and a lack of balance) are complaints that are common on these forums, but these are not arguments against removing class restrictions.

@Jim_Pipp

The idea with the build diversity argument is that each class has different strengths and weaknesses or, in other words, off-balance. The most commonly referenced example of this is Templars' advantage in direct healing vs DKs' superior mitigation. The different aspects of each class are inherently off-balance, but each class is off-balanced differently, such that the aggregate capabilities of the classes are roughly equal, or balanced. Everything else in the game the players can decide to use to further tilt or compensate for the inherent imbalances in their class. More options is more options. The trouble comes when we introduce the player and whatever mindset they have adopted toward how to play the game. They could just take a class, accept it's inherent flaws and adjust it with gear etc, or they could pick a role and tailor-make a class and gear combination to best fit this. The players who pick a role and then fill it have been widely successful due to how effective their method is. When they share their experiences and build, others try to emulate them, thus creating a "meta". These metas often maximize their ability to fill their role with what they can control, but they can easily end up not utilizing a skill line to its fullest. If they were able to, you can be certain to sacrifice a underused skill-line for a more advantageous one, thus increasing the effectiveness of their build to fulfill its role, thus making it even more desirable as a meta. That is the thought process behind number one, and it leads directly into number 2: balance.

Balance is a vague, unitless metric to describe how well different things perform against each other. If one combination is able to far out-perform another, they are off-balance. It is VERYVERYVERYVERY difficult to balance a game with multiple modes of play (a very broad but perhaps not all-encompassing partition is PvP and PvE) because everything is intertwined and depends on everything else. If we start with the assumption that the game is off balance, and further assume that that imbalance is due to the effectiveness of designing for a role and that these build are not absolutely optimized, such that one skill line from a different class would further increase its power, then the OP's suggestion would further off-balance the game by leading to stronger metas and thus more desirable metas. That is why people say balance the game first, THEN add this feature, but they could conceivably be done concurrently. Interestingly enough, this leads back into number 1. It's really two facets of the same argument, and I think a very sound argument despite the apparent paradox.

But you are making the assumption that balance is possible in an MMO with different classes, levels, Champion Points, gear, play style etc... There has never been a balanced MMO since the very inception of MMO's... The closest we can ever get to "balance" is a game like Overwatch or Halo PVP. No stats no gear just skill.

The constant blather about balance is just that, blather. Lets just throw PVE out the window in this conversation, lets just focus on PVP, if PVP players truly wanted balance then they would forgo all stats deriving from levels, cp's, gear etc. and there would just be an avatar (your character) that would be the same as everyone else's avatars (with the exception of appearance). Everyone would have the exact same range of abilities w/o levels or cp's affecting them and it would be a balanced PVP experience.

That, I think, is the truth of it. PVP players in MMO's want to have their cake and eat it too. I don't say that to be mean, I just think that's the way it is.

Right, so you can have a tank with 35k DPS, and 20k+ HPS while cloaking and streaking around..
Gotcha...

@WhiteMage I have never before replied to a forum discussion (I don't like to argue), but your post was intelligent, well constructed and insightfull.

I had written a long-ish reply about how diverse the players seem, and that building for a certain role (e.g. long range DOT build) suggests there may be more possible metas when classes are removed. Instead I will agree that imbalanced skill lines are currently mitigated by the class system (cool skill lines are locked with less attractive ones).

After reading your post I am reconsidering my position. Removing class restrictions is such an attactive idea for theory crafting. I wonder what people would build if they could.