It's my turn to complain about proc sets and explain why they suck

Alucardo · October 2016

I've commented in posts about proc sets, but I haven't really created my own to explain why they are so archaic in PVP, and how they destroy any fun you might have. Take this recap for example - all of this damage happened in a short amount of time, before I even had time to retaliate properly.

Without the proc damage, that's only 15,244 damage, which would have left me with enough health to try and defend myself. After the incap knocked me down, Selene's procced to finish me off. I basically went from full health, to zero in the blink of an eye. Had Viper and Selene's not existed, I probably would have been fine and won a fair fight. Perhaps if he didn't get lucky with Selene's I might have won also, or maybe not. This is the problem - winning and losing is all down to chance. It should NEVER be like that, and at one time, it wasn't.
ZOS, you're slowly ruining PVP with these abominations. Keep them in PVE, I don't care, but they need to be removed from PVP if you want to see people enjoying themselves and trying out new build variations, because at the moment, it's all of the same ***. If it's not Selene's, it's Velidreth.
Please stop leaving PVP to the roll of a dice. It's absolutely no fun at all.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say on the matter.

Also, what the hell is up with that recap about twin slashes. I don't think that would have helped me in that particular situation.

Ackwalan · October 2016

Proc sets are ridiculous in Pvp. I'm pretty much done with Pvp.

Alucardo · October 2016

Ackwalan wrote: »

Proc sets are ridiculous in Pvp. I'm pretty much done with Pvp.

I wish I could be done, but I need the AP. I won't be taking my medium armor guy in there anymore, that's for sure. Just the tank from now on. It's the only thing that can withstand all this junk

Curragraigue · October 2016

How do you stop one shot PvP and get fights to last longer? Get everyone in heavy to lower damage and increase resistances and make the win or lose based on RNG'esus. #HeavyProcsOnline

Insert pic of padded samurai warriors pounding each other with padded sticks.

Alucardo · October 2016

Curragraigue wrote: »

How do you stop one shot PvP and get fights to last longer? Get everyone in heavy to lower damage and increase resistances and make the win or lose based on RNG'esus. #HeavyProcsOnline

I think that's what I'm doing wrong. I'm still living in the past and running medium armor. I need to get with the times and throw on some black rose.

Curragraigue · October 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

How do you stop one shot PvP and get fights to last longer? Get everyone in heavy to lower damage and increase resistances and make the win or lose based on RNG'esus. #HeavyProcsOnline

I think that's what I'm doing wrong. I'm still living in the past and running medium armor. I need to get with the times and throw on some black rose.

I was running all medium and resisting the cheese but with all the new sets I have to say I'm caving. Next planned build will be 5 piece heavy with procs all the way.

Enslaved · October 2016

Yesterday we played some EP meets DC in Alle mine as usual. DC had a pair of tanks that literally were attacked by 10 of us after we killed their less tanky friends. We spent about 20 minutes until one of them died and other one went away. And I use proc sets, my guild mate use proc sets, and I saw at least 2 more selenes/kra'aghs. So, lol, there are some crazy tank setups that can survive any proc armageddon that comes their way.

Alucardo · October 2016

Curragraigue wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

How do you stop one shot PvP and get fights to last longer? Get everyone in heavy to lower damage and increase resistances and make the win or lose based on RNG'esus. #HeavyProcsOnline

I think that's what I'm doing wrong. I'm still living in the past and running medium armor. I need to get with the times and throw on some black rose.

I was running all medium and resisting the cheese but with all the new sets I have to say I'm caving. Next planned build will be 5 piece heavy with procs all the way.

I can beat them, sometimes. Like I said, it's all a roll of the dice. I was dueling 2 people running HA proc builds for a majority of the morning. The only times I'd win was when their sets didn't proc as often. But then again, it's easier fighting them when you start off facing each other. The guy in my screenshot was more of a gank

Alucardo · October 2016

Enslaved wrote: »

Yesterday we played some EP meets DC in Alle mine as usual. DC had a pair of tanks that literally were attacked by 10 of us after we killed their less tanky friends. We spent about 20 minutes until one of them died and other one went away. And I use proc sets, my guild mate use proc sets, and I saw at least 2 more selenes/kra'aghs. So, lol, there are some crazy tank setups that can survive any proc armageddon that comes their way.

Aye, that's why I usually only bring my Templar tank into pvp these days. It takes about 4 proc set builds to take me down (3 if you're really good). But yeah, my tank runs a pretty disgusting build itself, so it's like Turd vs Turd.

SnubbS · October 2016

Nerf proc sets & Nerf healing please.

Alucardo · October 2016

SnubbS wrote: »

Nerf proc sets & Nerf healing please.

Healing isn't too bad, but they need to delete vitality pots from pvp. There's a good reason why classes like Nightblade and Sorcerer don't have access to major mending. It's completely over the top.

Lava_Croft · October 2016

I think Wrobel wants PvP balance to be on par with PvP performance.

Lord_Eomer · October 2016

Common proc happens randomly and you become cry baby,

You can use these sets and if can not farm that's another issue.

Work on ur build to survive and win, instead of QQ.

If you want fights like an hour, it will kill gameplay.

Appreciate the efforts of that character build

Alucardo · October 2016

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Common proc happens randomly and you become cry baby,

You can use these sets and if can not farm yhats another issue.

Work on ur build to survive and win, instead of QQ.

If you wsnt fights like an hour, it will kill gameplay.

Appreciate the efforts of that character build

lardvader · October 2016

TBH I'm one of those guys who only step into PvP when I need some skills or AP for motifs etc.

But I still care about this subject and would like to see gear and skills perform different from PvE and PvP.

PvP should not be based on luck and procs and should be rewarded by dedication and skills. There is a good chance I'll put on some BR next time I'm setting my foot in there because of the current state.

Malmai · October 2016

Ur whining Alucardo since day 1 if u cant handle pvp than just dont play it it was way worse year ago gettin 2 shotted with mag sorc 12k dmg per shot...

Saint_Bud · October 2016

This sets should have a start cooldown, so the proc starts after fightbeginn (4sec or so). This would gave players time to counter them. They must also rework s&b skills. They to cheap or gave to many buffs/debuffs for the damage. Just look at the ransack tremoscale monsterset proc combo.

WillhelmBlack · October 2016

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Common proc happens randomly and you become cry baby,

You can use these sets and if can not farm that's another issue.

Work on ur build to survive and win, instead of QQ.

If you want fights like an hour, it will kill gameplay.

Appreciate the efforts of that character build

Please don't comment in PvP threads.

Coatmagic · October 2016

(Proceeds to beat the horse yet again...)

Oh ZoS...

Disable procs (and possibly certain skills) in PvP or separate it entirely and STOP SCREWING WITH PvE!

Tryxus · October 2016

Looks like I left Cyrodiil at the right moment

Mayrael · October 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Yesterday we played some EP meets DC in Alle mine as usual. DC had a pair of tanks that literally were attacked by 10 of us after we killed their less tanky friends. We spent about 20 minutes until one of them died and other one went away. And I use proc sets, my guild mate use proc sets, and I saw at least 2 more selenes/kra'aghs. So, lol, there are some crazy tank setups that can survive any proc armageddon that comes their way.

Aye, that's why I usually only bring my Templar tank into pvp these days. It takes about 4 proc set builds to take me down (3 if you're really good). But yeah, my tank runs a pretty disgusting build itself, so it's like Turd vs Turd.

Yeah this gone to far in both ways. Tankienes and dps with proc sets. Again I vote for global CD on proc sets so we couldnt stack them + bring back soft caps. Ofc numbers would need some adjustments in time so we can reach fun spot but current state is simply sick. On my mag sorc I run shields 24/7 while in cyro (which is fkn anoying to do it each 5s) because if I dont, Im dead after first 2 max. 3 skills (new meta viper + tremor) and this is without being ambushed... Im not complaining about being killed. Its the way how Im killed is my concern. Every offensive and defensive strategy should have retroactive counter.

hrothbern · October 2016

Curragraigue wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

How do you stop one shot PvP and get fights to last longer? Get everyone in heavy to lower damage and increase resistances and make the win or lose based on RNG'esus. #HeavyProcsOnline

I think that's what I'm doing wrong. I'm still living in the past and running medium armor. I need to get with the times and throw on some black rose.

I was running all medium and resisting the cheese but with all the new sets I have to say I'm caving. Next planned build will be 5 piece heavy with procs all the way.

@Curragraigue ,

are you sure that HA is the way to go ?

many posts say that, many players do it,

and many again, after that drastic gear change, notice the sustain and damage they lose

But would getting more Health from attributes not be also a good defense against the burst ?

Biro123 · October 2016

I'm still enjoying PVP. Ball groups running multiple destro staff ulti's are what rules out there at the mo. Proc sets come second imho. They allow you to play dodgeball and have a chance at taking on the odd straggler before their TS buds turn around and roll over you. They certainly don't rule in open PVP - the only time they give a big advantage is in those rare instances where you catch someone alone who isn't running an up-to-date PVP build.

But it procs just happens to be the main BiS option for solo PVPers (and duellers I guess), and anyone who PVPs a lot is gonna go for whatever is current BiS.
It's nothing new for MMO's, gear evolves every few releases and those who get the new stuff have an advantage over those who don't.

You're right though, the random nature of the procs is terrible - for both the user and the victim. I kind of think they would be much better if procs were for a much, much lower amount but tied with another, smallish 5-piece bonus.

But consider this though - you got hit by Selene and Viper and see the difference between a burst you could vs couldn't have survived. Without these sets, there would likely have been clever alchemist/spriggarns thorns or something instead, making the poison injection/ambush/incap (and follow-up dawnbreaker etc.) hit considerably harder. Not saying that means the procs weren't the difference between life/death - but perhaps they are not quite as big a difference as many ppl think?

I went with the times and now run a proc build. I cannot touch the ball groups except from range (no procs - i'm not abusing poison enchants there) or if they get broken up. I still bump into tank that I can't scratch. I get a lot of fairly even (and often not quick) 1v1 fights with those who have built to cope with the new meta. I can still die very quickly to a gank if not buffed/actively defending (despite hvy armour/decent healthpool). Its VERY VERY rare I win against more than one opponent. It all seems about right balance-wise. Its just about building in enough survivability to cope with the possible proc burst and knowing that it aint gonna hit you for another 4 seconds and during that time their damage is lower than it would otherwise have been.

As I say - not a great fan of the proc mechanics, but I don't think its broken. Mag/Stam - there's definite differences there, but not all one-way. As per the ball-groups, magicka currently excels at organised AOE spam, stamina excels at single-target. Not sure I like the way they appear to be becoming polarised into those roles/playstyles though.

Malmai · October 2016

Biro123 wrote: »

I'm still enjoying PVP. Ball groups running multiple destro staff ulti's are what rules out there at the mo. Proc sets come second imho. They allow you to play dodgeball and have a chance at taking on the odd straggler before their TS buds turn around and roll over you. They certainly don't rule in open PVP - the only time they give a big advantage is in those rare instances where you catch someone alone who isn't running an up-to-date PVP build.

But it procs just happens to be the main BiS option for solo PVPers (and duellers I guess), and anyone who PVPs a lot is gonna go for whatever is current BiS.
It's nothing new for MMO's, gear evolves every few releases and those who get the new stuff have an advantage over those who don't.

You're right though, the random nature of the procs is terrible - for both the user and the victim. I kind of think they would be much better if procs were for a much, much lower amount but tied with another, smallish 5-piece bonus.

But consider this though - you got hit by Selene and Viper and see the difference between a burst you could vs couldn't have survived. Without these sets, there would likely have been clever alchemist/spriggarns thorns or something instead, making the poison injection/ambush/incap (and follow-up dawnbreaker etc.) hit considerably harder. Not saying that means the procs weren't the difference between life/death - but perhaps they are not quite as big a difference as many ppl think?

I went with the times and now run a proc build. I cannot touch the ball groups except from range (no procs - i'm not abusing poison enchants there) or if they get broken up. I still bump into tank that I can't scratch. I get a lot of fairly even (and often not quick) 1v1 fights with those who have built to cope with the new meta. I can still die very quickly to a gank if not buffed/actively defending (despite hvy armour/decent healthpool). Its VERY VERY rare I win against more than one opponent. It all seems about right balance-wise. Its just about building in enough survivability to cope with the possible proc burst and knowing that it aint gonna hit you for another 4 seconds and during that time their damage is lower than it would otherwise have been.

As I say - not a great fan of the proc mechanics, but I don't think its broken. Mag/Stam - there's definite differences there, but not all one-way. As per the ball-groups, magicka currently excels at organised AOE spam, stamina excels at single-target. Not sure I like the way they appear to be becoming polarised into those roles/playstyles though.

Amen.

SodanTok · October 2016

Biro123 wrote: »

y would be much better if procs were for a much, much lower amount but tied with another, smallish 5-piece bonus.

But consider this though - you got hit by Selene and Viper and see the difference between a burst you could vs couldn't have survived. Without these sets, there would likely have been clever alchemist/spriggarns thorns or something instead, making the poison injection/ambush/incap (and follow-up dawnbreaker etc.) hit considerably harder. Not saying that means the procs weren't the difference between life/death - but perhaps they are not quite as big a difference as many ppl think?

Spriggan vs avg medium armor is probably like 10% dmg increase. Even with selene running (but no viper) that would be around 2k dmg bonus in that death log. Viper hit for twice that. Most sets offering some bonuses like raw dmg, penetration, +% dmg are offering much less than proc damage

//EDIT: Like marksman + morag tong is +18% dmg to lethal arrow, yet that is around 25% of viper damage (bad comparison since ranged vs melee, but still, its 10 items vs 5)

Johngo0036 · October 2016

I have to agree with Alucardo,
I use proc sets and TBH you dont stand a chance when they all proc and even though it is random you are guaranteed that at least 2 will proc during a 2 second fight,

Heavy attack from stealth and even tanks have to be good to survive and I am not a good player,

But having said that there are sets like blackrose, reactive that are also soooooo broken.

VampiricByNature · October 2016

I seriously don't think any random who has invited me to duel has had anything BUT proc helmets. I do not pvp - I'm a trial healer, so unless they CC me I live forever.... but..

I really want a set that negates the ability for monster helms to proc. Lol.

Brrrofski · October 2016

I don't mind monster helms. People have used skoria forever, so selene/velidreth are no different to me, just that Stamina hits harder currently. Like grothdrarr on a magica Dk in a duel is so strong.

Viper is horrible though. It's guaranteed 4k minimum every 4 seconds. Plain stupid. Refuse to run it. Tremorscale proc chance is stupid high to be fair as well.

AnviOfVai · October 2016

I agree these sets have gone too far now and needs changing... Unfortunately I am complaining about this issue as well.

Also does anyone know what is up with Soul Assault? I was on my tank last night and it blasted through my shield and took me down with over 22k damage. Happened to another player too.

Biro123 · October 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Spriggan vs avg medium armor is probably like 10% dmg increase. Even with selene running (but no viper) that would be around 2k dmg bonus in that death log. Viper hit for twice that. Most sets offering some bonuses like raw dmg, penetration, +% dmg are offering much less than proc damage

True, but the point is that Viper would do nothing for the next 4 seconds, while spriggarn would still benefit all other attacks in that period. I'm not arguing that its better than viper, cos I don't think it is - I just think that if you can deal with the burst, then the gap isn't as big as people make out.

The_Protagonist · October 2016

@Alucardo

Alucardo wrote: »

I've commented in posts about proc sets, but I haven't really created my own to explain why they are so archaic in PVP, and how they destroy any fun you might have. Take this recap for example - all of this damage happened in a short amount of time, before I even had time to retaliate properly.

Without the proc damage, that's only 15,244 damage, which would have left me with enough health to try and defend myself. After the incap knocked me down, Selene's procced to finish me off. I basically went from full health, to zero in the blink of an eye. Had Viper and Selene's not existed, I probably would have been fine and won a fair fight. Perhaps if he didn't get lucky with Selene's I might have won also, or maybe not. This is the problem - winning and losing is all down to chance. It should NEVER be like that, and at one time, it wasn't.
ZOS, you're slowly ruining PVP with these abominations. Keep them in PVE, I don't care, but they need to be removed from PVP if you want to see people enjoying themselves and trying out new build variations, because at the moment, it's all of the same ***. If it's not Selene's, it's Velidreth.
Please stop leaving PVP to the roll of a dice. It's absolutely no fun at all.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say on the matter.

Also, what the hell is up with that recap about twin slashes. I don't think that would have helped me in that particular situation.

I can understand your pain, trust me I've been there. Currently working on a strategy to counter proc sets. But calling an opposing player '***' is not polite.

If we want our queries to be taken seriously, we must be patient and polite, in spite of the frustrations, I also know that this topic has been very hot for quite a while now, and I have possibly seen your name in every discussion.

Take a breather, cool down. You are burning yourself out, while all the proccers are falling off their chairs laughing or at the least mildly amused at your indignant excitement.

And who knows, there could be a secret group of "The Proc Clan" that is handing out your name to every proccer in Tamriel so that they can target you, and then see your posts here for laughs while you lick your pixel wounds. Just cool off.

Hey BTW, sorry, if this offends you, but here it is.