Why are magicka dk skill so expensive?

acw37162 · October 2016

3K Magica for;

A skill which complete negates all ranged attacks, which means some compete builds

A spammable soft CC/Immobolize air entire groups with a synergy.

Come one man

luen79rwb17_ESO · October 2016

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Carbonised · October 2016

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

NBrookus · October 2016

The problem with wings isn't the cost, the problem is it's broken AF. A LOT of projectiles go through those wings.

Magicka DK needs help, but if you just reduce the cost on skills like wings and igneous, it'll buff stam DKs even more, and they don't need it.

leepalmer95 · October 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

3K Magica for;

A skill which complete negates all ranged attacks, which means some compete builds

A spammable soft CC/Immobolize air entire groups with a synergy.

Come one man

It doesn't completely negate all ranged attacks though:

Radiant restruction
Sorc curse
Endless fury
Heavy resto
Heavy lightning
Meteor
Soul assault
Templar shards

It counters projectiles for 4s, there are plenty of things in this game that are not projectiles but are ranged.

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

Yeah..

Everyone has reduction but mag dk
Everyone has an execute but mag dk

They base mag dk as a melee magicka class and then give it the worst and most broken gap closer in the game. Also a very expensive one as well.

Carbonised · October 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

3K Magica for;

A skill which complete negates all ranged attacks, which means some compete builds

A spammable soft CC/Immobolize air entire groups with a synergy.

Come one man

It doesn't completely negate all ranged attacks though:

Radiant restruction
Sorc curse
Endless fury
Heavy resto
Heavy lightning
Meteor
Soul assault
Templar shards

It counters projectiles for 4s, there are plenty of things in this game that are not projectiles but are ranged.

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

Yeah..

Everyone has reduction but mag dk
Everyone has an execute but mag dk

They base mag dk as a melee magicka class and then give it the worst and most broken gap closer in the game. Also a very expensive one as well.

Yeah I forgot about chains. Goes to show how bad they are, since I don't even recall having the skill.

Other classes spam their gap closers even for spamable damage (hello, Nightblade), but mine doesn't even work as a gap closer. Nor does it have any secondary effects worth mentioning.

But I get it, magDK needs expensive skills that deal mediocre damage and have no burst potential, because it's a ranged build you know! Ranged, even if more than half my skills are melee based. And I have shields! Like that 1k Igneous Shield that surely saved me time and time again. And healing! Like that dragonblood burst heal that heals as much as 1 vigor tick.

MagDK is the worst part of the melee builds meeting the worst parts of the magicka/ranged builds, having neither the perks of one playstyle nor the other.

Anti_Virus · October 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

Night blades don't have cost reduction either just regen

ninjaguyman · October 2016

mNB have siphoning attacks giving about 1k magicka and stamina on light attacks and 15% regen from passives

mTemplars have 4% magicka, stamina, and ult cost reduction and channeled focus which gives 120 magicka every .5 seconds

mSorcs have 5% magicka and stamina cost reduction, 15% ult reduction, and dark conversion which trades stam for mag and health( tho admittedly I dont see this used too often on a mag sorc)

mDKs have the battle roar passive, giving all resources back based on the ult cost. The only thing close to an active resource management skill would be draw essence, which returns a painfully low amount of magicka on the second hit.

imo mDk needs a comparable active resource management skill, but im not sure what that skill would replace(and of course the strength of this skill is debatable as there is still battle roar). Definitely not just buffing draw essence, as many mdks would still want the interrupt morph. then maybe just reduce the cost of some of the dk skills.

Stamden · October 2016

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

It's been pretty clear since the beginning of the game that ZoS hates magDKs. It's as if they want the class to be limited to tanking.

pjwb16_ESO · October 2016

The thing about wings is it only counters 4 projectiles for one cast if they are incoming in this 4s gor 3kish magicka, the costs woulf be totally justified in my opinion if wings would reflect all projectiles for 4 s but like this you often have to spam wings every second just so you dont die while several bowtards spam poison injection... but theb you cant do amything against the viper tremorscale moron which attacks you at the same time...

Bashev · October 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I'm running a 5 light build at the moment, just waiting until cyrodiil fills up again so i can test it open world, i'm probably going to get slapped though

Anyway even with 5 light and 75 in reduce magicka cost my wings and talons are still 3k, whip is around 2k which isn't bad...

But really 3k for wings for 4s?
Inhale is a similar price..
Inferno - I know
Fossilize etc...

Why on a light build is all this stuff still so expensive, i go on any stamina build and everything in under 2k?

Can we get some type of cost reduction for the stupid cost of skills.

This is in light as well, most mag dk agree light in open world is suicide. If you go heavy i can't imagine the cost....

Then in order to sustain while in heavy you have to give up more dmg on sets or such to sustain, this is without including the dmg loss off going from light to heavy in the first place..

They you get to a point where you can barely sustain your magicka and stamina and then realise your skills aren't hitting for anything, any stamina heavy user has more burst, healing, mobility, survivability, dps and burst dmg..

Come on zos ...

It is a legacy design. Skills were expensive because we were able to cast ultimate every 10 seconds and we restored a lot of resources. ZoS make big changes but they never adjust with small fixes.

DKsUnite wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'm getting a little tired of dks complaining about wing duration and even comparing them to sorc shields... they REFLECT projectiles at something like 30% increased damage. Wings are an active counter offensive skill for any ranged dps, and there's nothing quite like fighting a DK and having your own 13k crystal frag on your death recap.

And magicka skills costing more is generally attributed to the fact that we don't block, dodgeroll, or sprint with magicka.

Wings counter projectiles, lasts 4s

Mines counter all melee last 30s.

I can use skills such as channels, curse, etc.. to get around wings, what does someone do to a sorc camping mines?

Also you should learn how reflect works, yeah it 30% 'increased dmg' but that dmg also gets mitigated by the dk's resistance ( easily 20k - 33k on any mag dk build) and by the dk's elemental defender cp and then it gets mitigated again by the sorc's resistance and cp before it hits, if it hits.

So you throw a 14k tooltip frag at me, i have 25k spell resistances which is easy to get on a s&b dk in light armor that is 37.5% reduction, then include the 15% reduction from cp:

14000 x 0.85 = 11900

11900 x 0.625 = 7437.5.

So before battle spirit and the sorcs own armor that frag is down to 7.4k dmg. Likely to around 4-5k when the sorc mitigation comes in.

Then half it and time by 1.3 for the OP (30% increased dmg).

in terms of the wings reflect, im pretty sure the dmg gets 2xbattle spirit debuffs. It takes off 50% for your calc and then 50% for the person who initially threw the projectile. Wings is really a wasted slot

This is true. Also the double reduction of the CP damage when you reflect plus it you receive the dot from poison injection and the debuff from dark flare.

Destruent · October 2016

Neighbor wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

It's been pretty clear since the beginning of the game that ZoS hates magDKs. It's as if they want the class to be limited to tanking.

WTF? Mana-DK was the highest DPS in 1.5 and 1.6 and is now again one of the best DPS-speccs atm. They are also great for duells. They are also the best tanks for trials.

pjwb16_ESO · October 2016

No one here cares or talks about the pve aspects...

Drummerx04 · October 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'm getting a little tired of dks complaining about wing duration and even comparing them to sorc shields... they REFLECT projectiles at something like 30% increased damage. Wings are an active counter offensive skill for any ranged dps, and there's nothing quite like fighting a DK and having your own 13k crystal frag on your death recap.

And magicka skills costing more is generally attributed to the fact that we don't block, dodgeroll, or sprint with magicka.

Wings counter projectiles, lasts 4s

Mines counter all melee last 30s.

I can use skills such as channels, curse, etc.. to get around wings, what does someone do to a sorc camping mines?

Also you should learn how reflect works, yeah it 30% 'increased dmg' but that dmg also gets mitigated by the dk's resistance ( easily 20k - 33k on any mag dk build) and by the dk's elemental defender cp and then it gets mitigated again by the sorc's resistance and cp before it hits, if it hits.

So you throw a 14k tooltip frag at me, i have 25k spell resistances which is easy to get on a s&b dk in light armor that is 37.5% reduction, then include the 15% reduction from cp:

14000 x 0.85 = 11900

11900 x 0.625 = 7437.5.

So before battle spirit and the sorcs own armor that frag is down to 7.4k dmg. Likely to around 4-5k when the sorc mitigation comes in.

Then half it and time by 1.3 for the OP (30% increased dmg).

Okay great. So the 13k cfrag must have hit a naked DK. I didn't just make the number up. It was on my recap. Minimal impen and it must have crit, but hey whatever makes you feel better.

That doesn't change the fact that your wings completely negate the damage and return to sender. If I don't see the reflect due to lag or incompetence, it will still CC me. And what if I charged a heavy fire attack right before hand and launched crushing shock or something at the same time. Now I have 3 spells coming back on top of whatever you throw at me.

As for mines, I guess I can see the irony of sorcs envying wings while dks envy mines. But let me break down mines for you.

Mines are expensive... and they don't freaking move.

Arguably the most dangerous part of mines is the root, which shuffle and forward momentum ignore.
Most stam builds can stack enough healing and dodge roll through 3 mines and have full health by the time they finish the animation.
Mist form ignores the root and most of the damage
You can shield stack with harness and healing or hell even just one of them and walk or roll right through the mines.
Mines can be blocked

I mean really, unless someone crit rushes over three mines into a crystal frag (seen it, it was hilarious), the mines aren't really much more than a delay or intimidation tactic.

xblackroxe · October 2016

Patouf wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Yeah mag dk really did just die off in 1.7, there are some hardcore players but every mag dk there is always another class that does it better and easier.

mDK is very interresting in trial for group utility, as dps and of course and as tank. mDK is not dead for PvE, at least, but it has not the best numbers... but who cares, If you can support very well your group ?

For PvP, it is very interesting gameplay but as you said, regen magicka issue and ranged skills :'(

Please dont give out such blatantly wrong information. MagDK is together with MagPlar on top of dps foodchain in pve. (I dont know how stamina does this patch as we ditched our last one from the group, but they cant be far ahead like max 2-3k but I think they are actually a bit behind)

Also what utility has a Mag DK to offer the group that the tank doesnt already give?

I really dont see that ressource problem you all see the only thing I really want on dk is a eorking gapcloser and maybe dragonblood be a good heal again.

Anti_Virus · October 2016

[Deleted]

Anti_Virus · October 2016

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

No one here cares or talks about the pve aspects...

But you have to take pve into consideration for mDK changes.

Changes made in pvp effect pve.

cpuScientist · October 2016

I will say this, in PvE such as trials and Pledges and VMA sustain is stupid easy. USE YOUR ULTIMATES STOP SAVINF THEM UP YOU ARE NIT A SORC WITH OVERLOAD LOL, I see this all the time MagDK running around with 1k ultimate lol. Like WHYYYYY.

HOWEVER in PvP where you have to spam those damn wings and fossilize and talons it's bad you are waiting for that ultimate like an addict. Just gimme them bays oh just a quick hit of those bats oh yea that's the good stuff.....

Stamden · October 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DKs resource management is centered around using your ultimates as a source of gaining magicka back.

I agree magicka DK should be looked at and revised but don't agree with a flat cost reduce like other classes. Don't make them all the same, keep their identity please.

Yes, like 3 classes out of 4 can have cost reduction, but not the DK

Just like 3 classes out of 4 can have an execute (even several weapon skill lines), but by god, let's not give one to the DK. Nor the destro staff (weapon of choice for most magDKs).

To paraphrase Calvin, yes it's obvious that all classes shouldn't be the same, but why is it always the magDK that is being given the short stick.

It's been pretty clear since the beginning of the game that ZoS hates magDKs. It's as if they want the class to be limited to tanking.

WTF? Mana-DK was the highest DPS in 1.5 and 1.6 and is now again one of the best DPS-speccs atm. They are also great for duells. They are also the best tanks for trials.

Until Trails give really overpowered stuff, PvE really isn't that important.

Anti_Virus wrote: »

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

No one here cares or talks about the pve aspects...

But you have to take pve into consideration for mDK changes.

Changes made in pvp effect pve.

There are plenty of changes that would make mDKs more viable without changes there effects in PvE. The stupid thing is, Wobel said he was looking into making DoTs last longer, which would do the opposite...

Strider_Roshin · October 2016

The cost for whip is pretty ridiculous; especially when there's moves like swallow soul out there that cost barely more than weakness to elements.

leepalmer95 · October 2016

Not sure how magicka dk sustain is relevant in pve.

Sustain is not a problem in pve.

Having wings, inhale or fossilize cheaper or just giving magicka dk reduction will not effect end game trials at all. because any half decent group has skills and such slotted for sustain.