agegarton wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

of course if you do that they have to then have their active and passive abilities rebalanced... right? The balance until now has been based on only getting one set piece effect when having them and its significant enough a change... so maybe rally is cut back to Solicit? Dizzy swing becomes irksome swing? Cleave becomes manicure?

The skills for 2h are not so significantly more powerful than 1h, and you have to take the build potential as a whole into account, which you're not doing.

Actually i am considering the tree overall including set bonus. looking at any one skill vs any other skill is flawed.

2h is generally considered currently (even with only one set effect) to be one of the stronger options. If you add one more bonus to the overall build for every 2h build that raises its overall power when compared with DW, its principle stam dps alternative.

If your argument is that 2h is shown to be inferior to DW and so we see very little use of 2h in top tier or competitive play, that it needs a boost, that is a position that can be discussed.

If your argument is 2h is nor underpowered but adding a set effect wont matter, wont have a noticable impact on performance, etc then thst does question the need for a change.

Based on my own gameplay, based on obsrrvations in play, based on discussions on these boards and based on trends of changes made i dont have any reason to conclude 2h is currently underpowered. Do you?

STEVIL wrote: »

of course if you do that they have to then have their active and passive abilities rebalanced... right? The balance until now has been based on only getting one set piece effect when having them and its significant enough a change... so maybe rally is cut back to Solicit? Dizzy swing becomes irksome swing? Cleave becomes manicure?

I think one important part of the discussion is that two handed weapons doesn't universally mean the 2H tree. Bows and staves need some love, imo. We can discuss how 2H is strong in PvP all day, but I'm not so sure it does anywhere else.

STEVIL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

of course if you do that they have to then have their active and passive abilities rebalanced... right? The balance until now has been based on only getting one set piece effect when having them and its significant enough a change... so maybe rally is cut back to Solicit? Dizzy swing becomes irksome swing? Cleave becomes manicure?

I think one important part of the discussion is that two handed weapons doesn't universally mean the 2H tree. Bows and staves need some love, imo. We can discuss how 2H is strong in PvP all day, but I'm not so sure it does anywhere else.

If bows and staves are sub par, then fixing them should be focus, not upping a bunch that includes them and others that are not.

You can give love to staves or bows without also having to fool around with their cousin 2h.

As for 2h, again, if you wanna tty and make the case it is underpowered, feel free.

Very well, how often do you see an end game PvE build centered around 2h? My case is pretty simple: 5/5/2, better weapon damage, more versatility (the ability to run precise and sharpened, ie), and a better kit for PvE DPS.

A spammable that grants access to the single best effect in the game (cruel flurry, which was nerfed and can arguably be said to still overperform). A DoT and spammable that heal you based on damage, allowing you to stack one stat and keep yourself alive through sheer damage. An AoE with execute functionality. A ranged attack with major brutality source. An amazing bleed damage ultimate, and the only AoE damage reduction ability in the game, to my knowledge (unless you want to run Leki's and sacrifice 20% of your own damage). Everything listed is unique to DW, and unlike 2h the way you heal isn't by stopping DPS. The only real unique ability 2H has in its toolkit is an execute, which admitedly matters but as we'll see...not much.

But let's talk passives. 2h has some great passives: light and heavy attacks splash damage, and killing an enemy grants a substantial bonus to regen. Not to mention, full heavy attacks empower your next move by some 10-15%, so pretty good. That said, every single move in the entire DW kit (even the ultimate) hit harder on stunned, off balance, or disoriented enemies, passively gain 25% more damage near execute phase, and best of all: your off hand does more damage.

To conclude, the two have pros and cons, but to claim 2h does not need love is, I fear, a bit to simple. It does NOT need a buff in PvP, where gap closers and burst heals matter. It does in PvE, where damage, dots, and passive execute are huge. We won't even mention cruel flurry, lol.

Integral1900 wrote: »

We asked this at launch, we ask it now and we will most likely be asking when hell freezes over

Any weapon that requires 2 slots should take up 2 spaces in a set, if they haven't done it by now their not going to, it's frustrating but there it is, at least the 2 handed weapons have the coolest animations

To be fair, it certainly won't change if no one asks. And I agree, I love the way 2H swords look and feel. Plus, having a stamina ranged DPS would be awesome, and of course staves (and on the whole, magic) could use a little boost.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

of course if you do that they have to then have their active and passive abilities rebalanced... right? The balance until now has been based on only getting one set piece effect when having them and its significant enough a change... so maybe rally is cut back to Solicit? Dizzy swing becomes irksome swing? Cleave becomes manicure?

I think one important part of the discussion is that two handed weapons doesn't universally mean the 2H tree. Bows and staves need some love, imo. We can discuss how 2H is strong in PvP all day, but I'm not so sure it does anywhere else.

If bows and staves are sub par, then fixing them should be focus, not upping a bunch that includes them and others that are not.

You can give love to staves or bows without also having to fool around with their cousin 2h.

As for 2h, again, if you wanna tty and make the case it is underpowered, feel free.

Very well, how often do you see an end game PvE build centered around 2h? My case is pretty simple: 5/5/2, better weapon damage, more versatility (the ability to run precise and sharpened, ie), and a better kit for PvE DPS.

A spammable that grants access to the single best effect in the game (cruel flurry, which was nerfed and can arguably be said to still overperform). A DoT and spammable that heal you based on damage, allowing you to stack one stat and keep yourself alive through sheer damage. An AoE with execute functionality. A ranged attack with major brutality source. An amazing bleed damage ultimate, and the only AoE damage reduction ability in the game, to my knowledge (unless you want to run Leki's and sacrifice 20% of your own damage). Everything listed is unique to DW, and unlike 2h the way you heal isn't by stopping DPS. The only real unique ability 2H has in its toolkit is an execute, which admitedly matters but as we'll see...not much.

But let's talk passives. 2h has some great passives: light and heavy attacks splash damage, and killing an enemy grants a substantial bonus to regen. Not to mention, full heavy attacks empower your next move by some 10-15%, so pretty good. That said, every single move in the entire DW kit (even the ultimate) hit harder on stunned, off balance, or disoriented enemies, passively gain 25% more damage near execute phase, and best of all: your off hand does more damage.

To conclude, the two have pros and cons, but to claim 2h does not need love is, I fear, a bit to simple. It does NOT need a buff in PvP, where gap closers and burst heals matter. It does in PvE, where damage, dots, and passive execute are huge. We won't even mention cruel flurry, lol.

it seems like you are NOT saying 2H needs a buff such as adding an extra set-effect would provide - that its strength varies with PVE and PVP depending on content etc.

is that fair to say or are you indeed claiming that 2h is weaker than DW and needs a buff? if so we should move that to its own title thread so you can get a more robust series of responses about that claim. But frankly i have seen more than a few posts/threads about how 2H is top over DW... though right now it may be the shift with tanky has shifted things to SnB more if tanky is your desired goal.

As for PVE vs PVP, yes they are different and different locks need different keys, but as far as i know, this proposal is not to only add the extra-set-buff for PVE and not for PVP. is that your understanding too?

STEVIL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

What I am saying is ALL 2h weapons need something. Some across the board (staves) and others in specific areas (bow sustained damage and 2H PvE damage). To my reading the whole message is "weapons arent flavor, they have distinct uses and that nearly eradicates potential outside those uses", which is (to my reading) the purpose of the OP's thread. They proposed a set item increase. Your proposal, after seeing the above, is?

First, a valid suggestion is to day "do nothing" because the "problem" doesnt ecis or at least not as defined. I for one don't have any reason to agree that 2H is inferior to DW or SnB. Sure, right now, a popular meta for pvp is hvy tanky and so sNB gets a resurgance but it wasn't so 6 months ago and likely wont be 3 months from now. i do agree staves need help. I am on the fence about bows.

Second, an equally valid suggestion may be "what you are proposing doesnt solve it or breaks more" and IMO moving 2H to OP is not a good way to fix staves.

Third, I know you dont want to actually read what i posted but my first response was literally "of course if you do that they have to then have their active and passive abilities rebalanced... right? " so that valid response was simply - it can be done but you have to rebalance the package after doing so. Basically, dont just do it and hope its not bad. I think one guy responded just do it now and fix the imbalance later or somesuch.

But finally, i am sorry but I like a game where choices matter. A decision on what weapon to use should not be IMO just flavor but should carry with it some noticeable differences in performance which YES will make one weapon better at some challenges than other. So, i dont see different weapons having different limitations as a problem. The fact that i don't see that many 2H greatsword magica builds in play doesn't bother me nearly as much as the irrelevence weapon choice would have if it did.

Lol, then you and I fundamentally disagree. Weapon Choice should matter, but not so much that every end game build runs DW in pve. You're suggestion is do nothing? K, I think that's silly but you fell how you like.

One thing i find interesting is that while using the frequency of DW vs 2H to prop up the buff 2h skill line argument, the specific impact of not a weak 2H line but actually the Maelstrom dagger dw impact is as invisible as "but balance check" options..

Ankael07 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

One thing i find interesting is that while using the frequency of DW vs 2H to prop up the buff 2h skill line argument, the specific impact of not a weak 2H line but actually the Maelstrom dagger dw impact is as invisible as "but balance check" options..

que?

A number of threads address this but in brief, the current DW frenzy is being in part driven by the exceedingly high DPS that DW with two maelstrom daggers can produce at the high end. The maelstrom daggers roughly add like 4k to damage from the common DW flurry of blows DOT if it follows itself or something like that, comes in sharpened, and there is another slight bonus. The proc chance is 50% per weapon equipped so DW with 2 is 100%.

It has been described as somewhere around 5k DPS boost on its own and possibly the most significant single factor in the magica v stamina DPS mismatch currently being seen.

So, in terms of statistical thinking, it serves to be another reason outside of DW skill line compared to 2H skill line that shifts the frequency of use, so if you want to based or support an argument on frequency of use, as some have done here, forgetting to mention this at all... well thats telling.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

One thing i find interesting is that while using the frequency of DW vs 2H to prop up the buff 2h skill line argument, the specific impact of not a weak 2H line but actually the Maelstrom dagger dw impact is as invisible as "but balance check" options..

que?

A number of threads address this but in brief, the current DW frenzy is being in part driven by the exceedingly high DPS that DW with two maelstrom daggers can produce at the high end. The maelstrom daggers roughly add like 4k to damage from the common DW flurry of blows DOT if it follows itself or something like that, comes in sharpened, and there is another slight bonus. The proc chance is 50% per weapon equipped so DW with 2 is 100%.

It has been described as somewhere around 5k DPS boost on its own and possibly the most significant single factor in the magica v stamina DPS mismatch currently being seen.

So, in terms of statistical thinking, it serves to be another reason outside of DW skill line compared to 2H skill line that shifts the frequency of use, so if you want to based or support an argument on frequency of use, as some have done here, forgetting to mention this at all... well thats telling.

I mean, I'm not saying you make no sense, but discounting an ability that only affects dual wield when discussing dual wield vs 2H swords etc...

No idea what you mean by discounting. I am counting the maelstrom stuff in - but the point is you should not use a broken weapon to argue for a skill line improvement but to argue for fixing the broken weapons.

I mean, you can "fix" leaking brake fluid by draining all the brake fluid, but that isn't going to produce good results.

Similarly, if a primary cause for DW numerical bias is the daggers being out of whack, changing skill lines in a way that affects every level of play, not just the maelstrom level and will still be in play if those daggers change or the 2h maelstrom changes, well... makes no sense.

You see that, right?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

One thing i find interesting is that while using the frequency of DW vs 2H to prop up the buff 2h skill line argument, the specific impact of not a weak 2H line but actually the Maelstrom dagger dw impact is as invisible as "but balance check" options..

que?

A number of threads address this but in brief, the current DW frenzy is being in part driven by the exceedingly high DPS that DW with two maelstrom daggers can produce at the high end. The maelstrom daggers roughly add like 4k to damage from the common DW flurry of blows DOT if it follows itself or something like that, comes in sharpened, and there is another slight bonus. The proc chance is 50% per weapon equipped so DW with 2 is 100%.

It has been described as somewhere around 5k DPS boost on its own and possibly the most significant single factor in the magica v stamina DPS mismatch currently being seen.

So, in terms of statistical thinking, it serves to be another reason outside of DW skill line compared to 2H skill line that shifts the frequency of use, so if you want to based or support an argument on frequency of use, as some have done here, forgetting to mention this at all... well thats telling.

I mean, I'm not saying you make no sense, but discounting an ability that only affects dual wield when discussing dual wield vs 2H swords etc...

No idea what you mean by discounting. I am counting the maelstrom stuff in - but the point is you should not use a broken weapon to argue for a skill line improvement but to argue for fixing the broken weapons.

I mean, you can "fix" leaking brake fluid by draining all the brake fluid, but that isn't going to produce good results.

Similarly, if a primary cause for DW numerical bias is the daggers being out of whack, changing skill lines in a way that affects every level of play, not just the maelstrom level and will still be in play if those daggers change or the 2h maelstrom changes, well... makes no sense.

You see that, right?

Please don't put words into my mouth, I never claimed it was broken. In fact my actual comment was "it can be argued to be overperforming" post a 33% nerf. Also, referring back to my reasoning above, it was the least discussed part. The passives and actibe abilities do not even compare as far as PvE is concerned.

My statement was that this would address at least one thing that is unique about dual wield (two set items) without relentlessly overpowering it in PvP. That said, if you disagree that is fine, but "rebalancing passives" would also give PvE focused buffs to 2H, which is a bit more impactful than a single additional set value.

What?

set bonus would affect PVP and PVE and since the gear is chosen for the content, the players could optimize that for the content.

Skill bonuses are set, so changes to skills could be done with an eye for helping to balance pve and pvp.

plus there is no evidence without knowing what the skill changes/balances would be that they would outweigh or be more impactful than allowing 5th set bonuses would.

the set bonus change is like a grenade thrown into a crowd... sure it MIGHT hit the target but also likely affects everyone.
changes to the daggers - thats a sniper shot.
At the very least, adding set bonus and also rebalancing skills with it is still a grenade but its waiting for the crowd to disperse a bit.