Town Government - Player Run Towns

bellanca6561n · October 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Absolutely place my name on the ballot. I am running for mayor of Wayrest.

Your signature, "Biceps of the Covenant" made me laugh. I submit one of my Covenant characters as the shoulders of that alliance

Her biceps aren't bad either....oh how I LOVE this character

Off topic, I know, but I think this topic has run its course.

Mandragora · October 2016

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Mandragora wrote: »

I cannot imagine how it would work, but it is definitely something interesting to think about. I never played those MMOs like Ultima Online or Star Wars Galaxies, but I do like creative people bringing something new, something fresh. I'm so bored of all the games copying each other and I have this feeling, that there can be so much more in MMOs, but because of this old models where I'm only told what to do, it never really reach even near to that. My idea was somehow close to what some new alternative MMOs are trying to build up, but I'm afraid, that they will end up in RPG oldschool extreme.
So yes, an MMO, that could use players innovations and creativity, but for me also with NPCs having high AI, is something what I keep dreaming about.

There was a time when all sorts of online games were in development and different sorts of online games existed.

For the former the simple fact is 85% or more of them are never released.

Just at MS, not a company known for entertainment, there were two being developed for the PC while the Xbox Live platform was being developed: Mythica, and Ashron's Call II.

The former was purely in house but was cancelled just before alpha, and the latter was being developed with Turbine (the folks who did the original Ashron's Call and Lord of the Rings Online). But that collaboration was a poor one and AC2 was pretty much DOA.

All manner of online games were also in development by dozens of studios too.

Then World of Warcraft hit. Creativity in online game design subsequently died - not because WoW was a bad game (it was an excellent game) but because you couldn't get funding for anything that wasn't exactly like it.

Big budget online games are simply too risky for the price.

I can go into stories of very early online games that I continue to believe were better designs than anything now but who cares? If you can't play it you can't appreciate it.

Then again, I always found earlier personal aircraft designs more fun to fly than modern ones.

I owned and flew for many years this example - the actual Bellanca 6561N

You can't do better than wood for an aircraft wing...if the aircraft is small.

And you can't do better than emergent game design in an online game either....but the audience for such games is small as well

That was actually what I meant, but I was afraid to say that openly - not that I don't like old MMOs, but that concept.

This is my pain really - every MMO, that tried to be different, was killed at the very beginning (those I could play as a player).

Every new independent MMO got a group of players giving them a lot of money for pledges and then demanding that MMO to be according to them - unfriendly, full of annoing features, so even those are ruined before they come out of alpha.

The problem is that I have heard that WoW cataclysm drove the hardcore players away and they are seeking their perfect game too. Sadly, they have even worse problem than me - their favourite features goes against other players. So if there would be a way, how to combine RPG with hardcore features of those players? Maybe it is impossible, I don't know.

But I would like to have an alternative. And I really think I'm not alone. If there would be an alternative, that would be able to stand against all the hate, pressure from all sides and demanding group of unfriendly players, the pressure from inside, they could have that group of players, who are like me. So I'm not so sure about that small audience - I never saw MMO, that claimed to be original, to be without flaws, which killed it. So if there would be a game, that could keep the good direction? Which itself is really hard...

And about the cities:
As someone said - it does work with created cities now in sandbox games. In ESO I guess that for some players it would limit PVE experience in cities with quests, so the only another option is housing, because there is no other reason to enter cities without quests, right? But what if the cities would have some special occupation - like city of crafters, military city, city of scholars - they could choose to craft something, that is possible to buy only otherwise, or with some special upgrade - like siege weapons, armors, parlours, cosmetics, others features like that, then they could choose the whole style of that city, and players, who would enter, would follow that. So it wouldn't be like that feature ruined their ordinary PVE experience.

But it wouldn't be connected to the world, so what kind of game is ready for such features? You would need combined groups of players, with some other occupation for them. This is a big RPG feature, so you would need a whole system around it. And it would have to be without abuses.

Or it could give devs the reason to have cities without quests next to a city with a quest. My biggest problem with ESO was always, that there is so much going on around, that it doesn't look natural, so those cities could give the peaceful spots between the other cities with all the dealing with problems like quests - I think that is the only way how to integrate them into the world of ESO.

EDIT:
I do like ZOS, how they do test things, so I guess the chance would be in some new big DLC like Wrothgar, then they would see if it worked - me too - right now it is just fun to think about it

Mandragora · October 2016

bellanca6561n wrote: »

You can't do better than wood for an aircraft wing...if the aircraft is small.

And you can't do better than emergent game design in an online game either....but the audience for such games is small as well

I do like those design - I'm still waiting for them to be in the course again - as it is with everything - what was will be again.
That is also my answer to that small audience

EDIT:
Or is it modern? I'm sorry I don't understand airplanes, but the point was that certain design will not stay forever. It periodically changes. Of course, not everything oldschool is always the best.
So the pont was, that those old concepts of cancelled MMOs still do exist, right? Maybe one day will be a good time to bring them alive again.

We were talking with my friend about if the development of games would change the way that creating and maintaining of MMO could be cheaper, then it would be possible to take more of risk and to try new things.

bellanca6561n · October 2016

Mandragora wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

You can't do better than wood for an aircraft wing...if the aircraft is small.

And you can't do better than emergent game design in an online game either....but the audience for such games is small as well

I do like those design - I'm still waiting for them to be in the course again - as it is with everything - what was will be again.
That is also my answer to that small audience

EDIT:
Or is it modern? I'm sorry I don't understand airplanes, but the point was that certain design will not stay forever. It periodically changes. Of course, not everything oldschool is always the best.
So the pont was, that those old concepts of cancelled MMOs still do exist, right? Maybe one day will be a good time to bring them alive again.

We were talking with my friend about if the development of games would change the way that creating and maintaining of MMO could be cheaper, then it would be possible to take more of risk and to try new things.

The airplane metaphor is actually a good one but I did not use it well. Certain designs will always work because aerodynamics do not change. The airfoil design on that airplane, along with its taper wing wood construction, is a product of the 1920s and '30s.

But, in the marketplace, some designs will never work regardless of their quality. Giuseppe Bellanca is a good example. A natural genius for aircraft design, like Al Moody or Willy Messerschmitt, his aircraft were never popular. Fly one, though, and....wow.....

The unchanging part in online multiplayer game design is human nature. As aircraft, using wings and control surfaces, get their lift and their handling qualities, multiplayer games get theirs from their mechanics and social systems.

Some designs appeal to your baser nature but are very popular, even though they reward endless repetition and competition for resources. Human interaction is often unintentionally negative in these games.

Others design choices select for people who are social by nature. Those folks get their peak moments and enduring memories from collaboration, like a jazz band.

As for the costs coming down, that has been a dream of long standing. My last game job was for a medium sized studio in Munich, Germany. Germans are not into development risks involving hundreds of millions of euros.

But there are still no single, cheap off the shelf solutions for MMOs. You have no control over the number of objects you need to draw at one time as you do in single player games. And you can't get by using off the shelf, stock 3D objects and textures from stock shops like TurboSquid. Art is expensive.

ESO blows me away each time I load it due to its often astonishing art direction, object and texture quality and its shader....oh that shader! But it was anything but cheap to make. And had Skyrim not been such a blow out success who's to say if they'd have had the funds to make such a world.

Mandragora · October 2016

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Mandragora wrote: »

bellanca6561n wrote: »

You can't do better than wood for an aircraft wing...if the aircraft is small.

And you can't do better than emergent game design in an online game either....but the audience for such games is small as well

I do like those design - I'm still waiting for them to be in the course again - as it is with everything - what was will be again.
That is also my answer to that small audience

EDIT:
Or is it modern? I'm sorry I don't understand airplanes, but the point was that certain design will not stay forever. It periodically changes. Of course, not everything oldschool is always the best.
So the pont was, that those old concepts of cancelled MMOs still do exist, right? Maybe one day will be a good time to bring them alive again.

We were talking with my friend about if the development of games would change the way that creating and maintaining of MMO could be cheaper, then it would be possible to take more of risk and to try new things.

The airplane metaphor is actually a good one but I did not use it well. Certain designs will always work because aerodynamics do not change. The airfoil design on that airplane, along with its taper wing wood construction, is a product of the 1920s and '30s.

But, in the marketplace, some designs will never work regardless of their quality. Giuseppe Bellanca is a good example. A natural genius for aircraft design, like Al Moody or Willy Messerschmitt, his aircraft were never popular. Fly one, though, and....wow.....

The unchanging part in online multiplayer game design is human nature. As aircraft, using wings and control surfaces, get their lift and their handling qualities, multiplayer games get theirs from their mechanics and social systems.

Some designs appeal to your baser nature but are very popular, even though they reward endless repetition and competition for resources. Human interaction is often unintentionally negative in these games.

Others design choices select for people who are social by nature. Those folks get their peak moments and enduring memories from collaboration, like a jazz band.

As for the costs coming down, that has been a dream of long standing. My last game job was for a medium sized studio in Munich, Germany. Germans are not into development risks involving hundreds of millions of euros.

But there are still no single, cheap off the shelf solutions for MMOs. You have no control over the number of objects you need to draw at one time as you do in single player games. And you can't get by using off the shelf, stock 3D objects and textures from stock shops like TurboSquid. Art is expensive.

ESO blows me away each time I load it due to its often astonishing art direction, object and texture quality and its shader....oh that shader! But it was anything but cheap to make. And had Skyrim not been such a blow out success who's to say if they'd have had the funds to make such a world.

Or you could create MMO for selected group for selected amount of profit. As some smaller studios proved to be working. In that case you will not have to make compromises, which doesn't work anyway, and will not bring enough of money anyway - low budget, humble plans and small goals. Maybe the biggest mistake was always make it good for everyone - it never is. After some time it will always go down to the most vocal minority and to the lowest filth and excuses for everything.
EDIT:
(for example - I do love the storytelling and atmosphere of The Secret World - the best MMO in that area I know about - but I cannot play it! why? Because they decided to put all the old multiplayer mechanics - like go and kill 10 mobs, then go and kill 15 mobs and then kill a boss. If they would focus on that group of players, who would love such mechanics and storytelling - would it be a more successful MMO? There are different groups of players - some of them can work together, some of them cannot, some compromises can be made, some will never work)

The problem is that if someone is creative, he usually has no sense for business and the opposite, so if the two sides can work well together, respecting each other - creative plans and practical too, it can be successful.

It is not always about design, but also how you can sell it. But nvm, this is too far from the OP and I'm in a bad mood.

EDIT:
But othewise I agree with you as much my english allows me to understand - yes, there are some mechanics, that are perfect for MMO and it is all about it too.
I can just say, that I could do now a lot of things as an amateur I couldn't do before - a lot of studios sell their engines and desings made for it and a lot of more things are possible now with new graphics and PC/consoles, but I know nothing about shaders or servers, so I cannot say anything about that, only that generally it can be better.

Mandragora · October 2016

Simply I think, that there are players, who would enjoy such features, that are minor now, but the whole MMO would have to be OK for them and I'm afraid, that the situation now is, that every big MMO is overrun by unfriendly players, demanding features, that will drive away such players, also it requires a lot of money, so devs will not want to take the risks, so the only possible way I see is that a small studio would focus on the minor group only, test those mechanics, make them popular, then it could be brought to a big MMO, where it would have a chance to become a feature demanded by majority.

But also I started to dream about an MMO, where I wouldn't have to argue every day with players with the opposite game play style, where devs would enjoy that kind of MMO too, and so I was thinking, that I would rather have such small MMO, that would be friendly and cool for a certain group, agreeig with each other, than something big, full of compromises, where I have to be afraid all the time what a new update will bring.

bellanca6561n · October 2016

Mandragora wrote: »

Simply I think, that there are players, who would enjoy such features, that are minor now, but the whole MMO would have to be OK for them and I'm afraid, that the situation now is, that every big MMO is overrun by unfriendly players, demanding features, that will drive away such players, also it requires a lot of money, so devs will not want to take the risks, so the only possible way I see is that a small studio would focus on the minor group only, test those mechanics, make them popular, then it could be brought to a big MMO, where it would have a chance to become a feature demanded by majority.

But also I started to dream about an MMO, where I wouldn't have to argue every day with players with the opposite game play style, where devs would enjoy that kind of MMO too, and so I was thinking, that I would rather have such small MMO, that would be friendly and cool for a certain group, agreeig with each other, than something big, full of compromises, where I have to be afraid all the time what a new update will bring.

That's why I never liked the term, MMO. It's a Rorschach test; it means many things and each player tends to have a very specific set of features in mind when they think of the genre.

There's an entire genre of novels now called LitRPG that have, at their core, a dream MMO. Everyone has one. And if you can't play the online game of your dreams you can at least imagine playing it when reading these books.

ESO can feel like a soup sandwich at times because it lacks the sort of core identity of, say, an Eve Online or a Lord of the Rings Online which attract a more specific player type. Instead, this game attracts such a wide range of people that it often feels inherently adversarial.

One fellow posts a thread lamenting the tougher world bosses because his friends have left and he has to play the game alone. He's promptly attacked for not knowing what an MMO is by people who have no aversion to playing with strangers and feel the op's point of view is stupid.

Meanwhile players who prefer the open world PvP ESO game witness new gear sets, designed for people who take on million hit point robot monsters, alter the balance among players who are fighting human adversaries with 20-30 thousand hit points. And they have a point....they really really do. But this pisses off the people who fear they'll lose their new PvE gear.

Add to that the five guild system in a genre that relies on ongoing, close relationships among persistent player groups and the game can feel like Lord of the Flies Online

That's why I felt that associating player identity with towns, the way RP guilds often associate themselves with specific places, would be a useful and positive addition. But too many players have too many negative associations with player run groups in this game. Others, who think nothing of taking orders from an NPC, imagine having to take orders from people.

It just didn't ring true here.