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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Thank you @Wrobel [Solved] Block cost reduction VS Roll dodge cost reduction
Bashev
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ZoS please balance them. @Wrobel make the code consistent.
Block cost reduction
Base block cost - 2160
3 glyphs - 609
1h/s passive 36% + 8% from defensive posture skill (these are additive 44%)
Sturdy 4% it is multiplicative (0.96^8) = 28%
Champion passive 25%
The final formula is (2160-609)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.28)*(1-0.44) = 1551*0.75*0.72*0.56 = 469
Roll dodge cost reduction
Base roll dodge cost 4040
3 glyphs - 609
7 medium armor pieces (7*4% = 28% - they are additive)
8 well fitted pieces (8*5% = 40% - additive again)
Champion passive 18%
The final formula is 4040*(1-0.28)*(1-0.40)*(1-0.18)-609 = 4040*0.72*0.6*0.82 - 609 = 1431 - 609 = 822
Conclusion
*The glyph cost reduction is way better for roll dodge than block cost. Also the glyph that reduce the roll dodge also reduce the cost of all your stamina skills except block.
*Roll dodge avoid all damage + mobility, blocking you take some damage and you are slowed.
*The penalty for blocking is higher than roll dodge.
Edited by Bashev on October 19, 2016 9:28AM Block cost reduction
Base block cost - 2160
3 glyphs - 609
1h/s passive 36% + 8% from defensive posture skill (these are additive 44%)
Sturdy 4% it is multiplicative (0.96^8) = 28%
Champion passive 25%
The final formula is (2160-609)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.28)*(1-0.44) = 1551*0.75*0.72*0.56 = 469
Roll dodge cost reduction
Base roll dodge cost 4040
3 glyphs - 609
7 medium armor pieces (7*4% = 28% - they are additive)
8 well fitted pieces (8*5% = 40% - additive again)
Champion passive 18%
The final formula is 4040*(1-0.28)*(1-0.40)*(1-0.18)-609 = 4040*0.72*0.6*0.82 - 609 = 1431 - 609 = 822
Conclusion
*The glyph cost reduction is way better for roll dodge than block cost. Also the glyph that reduce the roll dodge also reduce the cost of all your stamina skills except block.
*Roll dodge avoid all damage + mobility, blocking you take some damage and you are slowed.
*The penalty for blocking is higher than roll dodge.
Because I can!
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the logic is that you can block(be charged for blocking) twice per second, but can only roll dodge once per second.
If you think of X cost reduction for an action as "gaining" X resource everytime the action is performed, then the two become roughly equal(resource 'gained' per second).
(this does not mean i am happy with how things work, just seeking an explanation for the 400/800 disparity)Edited by Sharee on June 27, 2016 8:14AM0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The strength of dodge rolling is underrated in the above calculation, in the sense that, as OP said, dodge prevents damage (and also snares, which still apply even if you block the associated attack). It also gives a period of continuous evasion after the roll completes.
Dodge reduction is too powerful currently, even considering the cost increase mechanic for consecutive rolls. Well fitted needs to a) be reduced to 4% a piece and b) made multiplicative as well.
Also, the reduce stamina glyph needs to exclude dodge. We got the cost increase on dodge to prevent perma-dodge and then they added in enough possibilities for cost reduction, that returns it to be more or less "perma" for an individual encounter, especially in PvP.
There is a significant disparity between block and dodge. Especially combined with sets like morihaus and eternal hunt, dodge is nowadays a very strong offensive move as well. If you then consider that blocking stops stamina reg while dodging doesn't, you end up with a "wtf" conclusion.
The only thing going for block is the fact that it also applies to AoE, but with the movement speed reduction, this advantage is irrelevant, since you need to "unblock" to move out of the AoE zone. Dodging usually gets you out of the AoE zone much faster, so that you eat less damage than you would have blocking.
A large part of the disparity between magicka and stamina comes from dodge, similar as to what shields did before for magicka chars. Shields were adjusted, dodges not. It's time to handle that.2 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think the logic is that you can block(be charged for blocking) twice per second, but can only roll dodge once per second.
If you think of X cost reduction for an action as "gaining" X resource everytime the action is performed, then the two become roughly equal(resource 'gained' per second).
(this does not mean i am happy with how things work, just seeking an explanation for the 400/800 disparity)
Thats another unbalance. A roll dodger can do it every second and he loses 800 stamina multiplied by 1.33 for next roll dodge and at the same time he has stamina recovery. If I block I am charged 800 for every second and I dont have any stamina recovery.The strength of dodge rolling is underrated in the above calculation, in the sense that, as OP said, dodge prevents damage (and also snares, which still apply even if you block the associated attack). It also gives a period of continuous evasion after the roll completes.
Dodge reduction is too powerful currently, even considering the cost increase mechanic for consecutive rolls. Well fitted needs to a) be reduced to 4% a piece and b) made multiplicative as well.
Also, the reduce stamina glyph needs to exclude dodge. We got the cost increase on dodge to prevent perma-dodge and then they added in enough possibilities for cost reduction, that returns it to be more or less "perma" for an individual encounter, especially in PvP.
There is a significant disparity between block and dodge. Especially combined with sets like morihaus and eternal hunt, dodge is nowadays a very strong offensive move as well. If you then consider that blocking stops stamina reg while dodging doesn't, you end up with a "wtf" conclusion.
The only thing going for block is the fact that it also applies to AoE, but with the movement speed reduction, this advantage is irrelevant, since you need to "unblock" to move out of the AoE zone. Dodging usually gets you out of the AoE zone much faster, so that you eat less damage than you would have blocking.
A large part of the disparity between magicka and stamina comes from dodge, similar as to what shields did before for magicka chars. Shields were adjusted, dodges not. It's time to handle that.
Very well written post. I just dont think that roll dodge should be nerfed, I think that the other defensive mechanics should be buffed.Because I can!2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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I agree very much in general, the nerfing needs to stop and buffing needs to happen. In this specific case, I would much rather see dodging toned down a bit.The strength of dodge rolling is underrated in the above calculation, in the sense that, as OP said, dodge prevents damage (and also snares, which still apply even if you block the associated attack). It also gives a period of continuous evasion after the roll completes.
Dodge reduction is too powerful currently, even considering the cost increase mechanic for consecutive rolls. Well fitted needs to a) be reduced to 4% a piece and b) made multiplicative as well.
Also, the reduce stamina glyph needs to exclude dodge. We got the cost increase on dodge to prevent perma-dodge and then they added in enough possibilities for cost reduction, that returns it to be more or less "perma" for an individual encounter, especially in PvP.
There is a significant disparity between block and dodge. Especially combined with sets like morihaus and eternal hunt, dodge is nowadays a very strong offensive move as well. If you then consider that blocking stops stamina reg while dodging doesn't, you end up with a "wtf" conclusion.
The only thing going for block is the fact that it also applies to AoE, but with the movement speed reduction, this advantage is irrelevant, since you need to "unblock" to move out of the AoE zone. Dodging usually gets you out of the AoE zone much faster, so that you eat less damage than you would have blocking.
A large part of the disparity between magicka and stamina comes from dodge, similar as to what shields did before for magicka chars. Shields were adjusted, dodges not. It's time to handle that.
Very well written post. I just dont think that roll dodge should be nerfed, I think that the other defensive mechanics should be buffed.
Alternatively, base cost for dodging should be a percentage of max. stam, with the reductions currently possible to stay the same. Make the percentage small enough, and you have a system that does not necessarily overtax magicka builds and retains dodge as a important trade-off for stamina builds.0