Stats and skill description nonsense

daedalusAI · October 2016

For someone who likes a simple yet informative representation of information it really irks me that a lot of stats and item/skill descriptions obscure their true value or mechanism behind them.

The first thing is a personal preference: why would you display a resource regeneration as a measure of X per 2 sec instead of a simple X per 1 sec?

Spell/weapon damage: is that supposed to be a +X flat increase of damage added to the base damage of the respective ability - or is that yet another rating which I don't know how it converts into an actual damage increase?

Resistances: 10k resistance rating. What's that supposed to tell me: If someone with 9,9k spell damage hits me I receive no damage because I resist everything?

Weapon crit was displayed as a percentage but now I have expert hunter showing me a rating. How much is 2k crit rating as an actual percentage?
Quite inconsistent obscuring almost every stat as a rating but showing crit chance as an actual percentage.

Another thing: why do I only see the base damage of a skill on the tooltip and not the actual damage I do with it after having my equip and stats calculated into it? Almost every other game out there is able to do that.

Mic1007 · October 2016

You only regain resources every two seconds; that's why it displays the value as such.

As for Resistance, I believe 33k is equal to 50% resistance, which makes 10k 16% resistance more or less.

2191 Crit Rating is equal to 10% Crit Chance.

@Asayre did the math for damage somewhere else in these forums.

Gargath · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Weapon crit was displayed as a percentage but now I have expert hunter showing me a rating. How much is 2k crit rating as an actual percentage?
Quite inconsistent obscuring almost every stat as a rating but showing crit chance as an actual percentage.

Expert hunter with 2k crit rating was always giving me ~10% extra crit.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Mic1007 wrote: »

You only regain resources every two seconds; that's why it displays the value as such.

As for Resistance, I believe 33k is equal to 50% resistance, which makes 10k 16% resistance more or less.

2191 Crit Rating is equal to 10% Crit Chance.

@Asayre did the math for damage somewhere else in these forums.

Hmm: are they afraid to show the actual percentages as a means of "hiding" some mechanism and to minimize them getting exploited?

There is no other reason considering they do show the actual crit percentage.

Thanks though - but it's pathetic that players have to do their own math to understand the mechanisms the game won't show.

moonio · October 2016

Can someone explain how the glyph of decrease health works..
it says it does X unresistable damage.. so if the value of X is say 2500 I should see that amount of damage on screen?
How often does it deal the damage and on what weapon skills, all?

Sometimes when I use it with my bow as an opener say with snipe I get 3 values showing in brackets and I think this may relate to the glyph, the skill and the sharpened trait??
Total confusion...

daedalusAI · October 2016

So how is the spell/weapon damage calculated?
Is that a flat +X or just another rating?

WhiteMage · October 2016

The ignorance to this information of all of these players is really telling. What does it say? These convoluted stats and calculations and formulas are a little out of hand; they themselves provide little to no insight on the inner workings of these skills to the uninformed. I think those of us who do know may forget that from time to time.

If you would like to read up on any of this, I encourage you to google Sorcerer Arithmagic by Asayre. He has delved into the math of it a great deal and I think it's fair to say that the knowledge most if not all players have regarding this is thanks to him.

Beardimus · October 2016

Some of the stats, or how they do them do make sense once you see the reasons why, its just getting your head around it.

But yes, as others posted Asayre's info can really help you get into the detail if you so wish.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Beardimus wrote: »

Some of the stats, or how they do them do make sense once you see the reasons why, its just getting your head around it.

But yes, as others posted Asayre's info can really help you get into the detail if you so wish.

There is no reason why your character sheet only displays ratings for spell and physical resistance but is somehow able to display your crit chance as a percentage.
Why not just just show crit chance as a rating too to keep it in line with expert hunter and the defensive ratings?

The tooltips are mind-blowing:
Weapon damage: "Affects how much damage or healing your stamina-based abilities and weapons cause."
No information at all if that is flat +X, a rating or something entirely different.

If I have to use math devised by players to understand the basic stats and skill mechanisms that the game utterly fails to explain itself that already is a pathetic showing.

Mojmir · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Some of the stats, or how they do them do make sense once you see the reasons why, its just getting your head around it.

But yes, as others posted Asayre's info can really help you get into the detail if you so wish.

There is no reason why your character sheet only displays ratings for spell and physical resistance but is somehow able to display your crit chance as a percentage.
Why not just just show crit chance as a rating too to keep it in line with expert hunter and the defensive ratings?

The tooltips are mind-blowing:
Weapon damage: "Affects how much damage or healing your stamina-based abilities and weapons cause."
No information at all if that is flat +X, a rating or something entirely different.

If I have to use math devised by players to understand the basic stats and skill mechanisms that the game utterly fails to explain itself that already is a pathetic showing.

Theorycrafting

daedalusAI · October 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Some of the stats, or how they do them do make sense once you see the reasons why, its just getting your head around it.

But yes, as others posted Asayre's info can really help you get into the detail if you so wish.

There is no reason why your character sheet only displays ratings for spell and physical resistance but is somehow able to display your crit chance as a percentage.
Why not just just show crit chance as a rating too to keep it in line with expert hunter and the defensive ratings?

The tooltips are mind-blowing:
Weapon damage: "Affects how much damage or healing your stamina-based abilities and weapons cause."
No information at all if that is flat +X, a rating or something entirely different.

If I have to use math devised by players to understand the basic stats and skill mechanisms that the game utterly fails to explain itself that already is a pathetic showing.

Theorycrafting

True.
Please theorycraft for me why crit is displayed as an actual percentage in the character window and not as a rating to fit in with the other ratings?

daedalusAI · October 2016

Something other that is mind-blowing if you play other mmorpgs:

Your basic item comparison only offers you a green or a red arrow as a means of comparison and no actual numbers - so why even bother with such a comparison in the first place.
It's the same as comparing both stats on my own.

I need an addon to show me the actual numbers during an item comparison.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Can someone tell me if spell/weapon damage is a flat +X added to the base values - or is it yet another rating?

out51d3r · October 2016

Weapon/spell damage is multiplied by a coefficient(each skill has it's own coefficient) then added to the damage.

You will find the answer to many of your questions here:
tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/
Yes, it is unfortunate how the information is presented.

Rune_Relic · October 2016

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/209938/pts-2-3-x-sorcerer-arithmagic/p1

Have a look here....many formulas are given.
and yes...ZOS obfiscation doesnt help anyone.
The people you try to hide it from the most will back engineer it anyway.
The rest of the playerbase have not one clue what the hell is going on.
RTFM...oh...wait!

out51d3r · October 2016

As for why games obfuscate numbers like this, here's an interesting link with comments from developers from several major games:
https://quora.com/Why-do-games-often-hide-certain-statistics-from-most-players

Skcarkden · October 2016

Probably so that if ZoS cause something similar to the movement speed bug no one will notice it and if they don't notice, they can't demand ZoS fix it.

daedalusAI · October 2016

out51d3r wrote: »

As for why games obfuscate numbers like this, here's an interesting link with comments from developers from several major games:
https://quora.com/Why-do-games-often-hide-certain-statistics-from-most-players

Well if you go the route of keeping tooltip information to a minimum you as a gaming company have to provide some sort of wiki which provides all the information a player is seeking.

For ESO there is no official wiki and the few other wikis aren't up to date on every possible skill/passives etc. as far as I can tell - which means I'm forced to dig through posts on several forums to get the information I seek and it's not guaranteed that the information is even accurate as of the most recent patch. Pretty pathetic.

Keeping tooltip information to minimum would imply a certain coherent logic of doing so which again ESO doesn't do: crit is shown as a rating on everything e.g. sets or on expert hunter but is the only stat you can see as a percentage in your character window. MInd-blowing.

I've set to see information if and how WW transformation is affected by the weapon and skills on the bar used for transformation - all I have is outdated information provided by other players.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Skcarkden wrote: »

Probably so that if ZoS cause something similar to the movement speed bug no one will notice it and if they don't notice, they can't demand ZoS fix it.

Well that's another possible reason: if your players don't have all the information they can't point the finger at you when you fail real hard.

Reorx_Holybeard · October 2016

While there are definite areas of improvement (the Critical number in particular instead of a % annoys me to no end) name one RPG that doesn't do this. Its just a natural consequence of a complex combat engine being represented by a bunch of numbers. At the lowest level of knowledge all you have to realize is that bigger numbers are better. As you gain knowledge you learn things like some numbers are more important than others and diminished returns. At the far end of knowledge you can theorycraft with the actual equations that govern each stat and how they relate to damage done or taken.

Grymmoire · October 2016

I blame our lack of understanding on the Devs utilizing the interplay between the RNGeezus and the Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold; oh yes, and that spinning dart board in their brainstorming room too.

* a nod to Tom Lehrer*

WalksonGraves · October 2016

out51d3r wrote: »

As for why games obfuscate numbers like this, here's an interesting link with comments from developers from several major games:
https://quora.com/Why-do-games-often-hide-certain-statistics-from-most-players

Real reason is you don't notice bugs if they hide the numbers. Like how every bethsoft es game has broken perks with vague descriptions so you aren't sure if it's working properly.

Mic1007 · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Mic1007 wrote: »

You only regain resources every two seconds; that's why it displays the value as such.

As for Resistance, I believe 33k is equal to 50% resistance, which makes 10k 16% resistance more or less.

2191 Crit Rating is equal to 10% Crit Chance.

@Asayre did the math for damage somewhere else in these forums.

Hmm: are they afraid to show the actual percentages as a means of "hiding" some mechanism and to minimize them getting exploited?

There is no other reason considering they do show the actual crit percentage.

Thanks though - but it's pathetic that players have to do their own math to understand the mechanisms the game won't show.

Crit Rating is added through ambiguous numbers due to the Tiered level system. For a level 3, 2191 would have been 100%+ Crit Rating, while that same number only gives 10% to a CP160 character.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

While there are definite areas of improvement (the Critical number in particular instead of a % annoys me to no end) name one RPG that doesn't do this. Its just a natural consequence of a complex combat engine being represented by a bunch of numbers. At the lowest level of knowledge all you have to realize is that bigger numbers are better. As you gain knowledge you learn things like some numbers are more important than others and diminished returns. At the far end of knowledge you can theorycraft with the actual equations that govern each stat and how they relate to damage done or taken.

Let me see:

WoW isn't really an RPG but the character window is so simplified you are only shown percentages instead of ratings
lotro is in its final breath of live and yet it manages to only show ratings in the character window and the tooltip to every rating provides you with the actual percentage
POE isn't an RPG either but your character window does indeed show you every possible information you could seek

susmitds · October 2016

daedalusAI wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

While there are definite areas of improvement (the Critical number in particular instead of a % annoys me to no end) name one RPG that doesn't do this. Its just a natural consequence of a complex combat engine being represented by a bunch of numbers. At the lowest level of knowledge all you have to realize is that bigger numbers are better. As you gain knowledge you learn things like some numbers are more important than others and diminished returns. At the far end of knowledge you can theorycraft with the actual equations that govern each stat and how they relate to damage done or taken.

Let me see:
WoW isn't really an RPG but the character window is so simplified you are only shown percentages instead of ratings

lotro is in its final breath of live and yet it manages to only show ratings in the character window and the tooltip to every rating provides you with the actual percentage

POE isn't an RPG either but your character window does indeed show you every possible information you could seek

WoW not an RPG, wut?

Ankael07 · October 2016

Im glad they arent explaining literally everything with a paragraph or something. Not only it would mess up the UI it also gives importance to theorycrafting in general. Testing and failing/succeeding extends my overall gameplay in a good way.

daedalusAI · October 2016

Ankael07 wrote: »

Im glad they arent explaining literally everything with a paragraph or something. Not only it would mess up the UI it also gives importance to theorycrafting in general. Testing and failing/succeeding extends my overall gameplay in a good way.

It depends how you define theorycrafting.

The route ESO is going is the one I despise. You are offered almost 0 explanation about almost everything and thus are forced to theorycraft to get a basic understanding how everything work e.g. crit and resistance rating and how they are converted into an actual percentage.

The other meaning is the game itself already provides you with plenty of information and you theorycraft the best possible skill set/equip etc. for a specific class with a specific goal in mind e.g. NB saptank or other fancy stuff.

Pandorii · October 2016

I think that many of the comments thus far are missing the OP's point. The character sheet information and tooltip information is not easily understandable or intuitive. I think that it's something that developers can improve on. We shouldn't have to rely on external information like resistance caps to understand what our damage output is.

It seems to me like the current system in place is the result of 'quick fixes' and 'bandaid fixes' implemented over the course of the development of the game like changes in the champion point system, removal of veteran ranks, soft cap removal, and resistance cap changes. Diehard ESO fans are going to try to figure it out (or at least they're going to go to the math wizzes and take their word for it).

l think it's time that they go back and clean up the character sheet or devote some resources to transparency and consistency.

smashcats · October 2016

Yeah i still have no idea what weapon or spell damage actually does

daedalusAI · October 2016

Pandorii wrote: »

I think that many of the comments thus far are missing the OP's point. The character sheet information and tooltip information is not easily understandable or intuitive. I think that it's something that developers can improve on. We shouldn't have to rely on external information like resistance caps to understand what our damage output is.

It seems to me like the current system in place is the result of 'quick fixes' and 'bandaid fixes' implemented over the course of the development of the game like changes in the champion point system, removal of veteran ranks, soft cap removal, and resistance cap changes. Diehard ESO fans are going to try to figure it out (or at least they're going to go to the math wizzes and take their word for it).

l think it's time that they go back and clean up the character sheet or devote some resources to transparency and consistency.

I doubt anything will be done for clarification any time soon.
Witches Festival was far more important for ZOS than to offer understandable tooltips.

Waffennacht · October 2016

Oh look at all the newer players!

It was in percentage form previously, they changed that a while back to flat numbers.

With the massive increase in power since then, they had to change to a new flat value. They originally used both flat numbers and percentages, these flat numbers became the bases in which everytbing was calculated.

With so many order of operations they simplified it.

Each ability has a different formula to calculate damage, that's why the ambiguity .

200 spell damage will increase a staff's heavy attack damage more than 200 spell damage will increase the damage of destructive reach.

That's why, because nothing but the crit numbers are standard